CSX RobertAs stated, you could use Loconet for turnout control without converting your train operation to DCC. You wouldn't even have to buy a Digitrax command station, you could use a PR3(Loconet PC interface) as the Loconet "master". Going this route, setup and debugging would be easier with the PC, but it would not be required for normal operation. The neat thing about using Loconet is it would greatly simplify wiring.
CSX,
Two great points here:
1. The PR3 is a great way to go, and I'd forgotten to mention that. JMRI and other free software is available to control the system.
2. Simple wiring. Exactly! Wire turnout motors back to clearly labelled points on the DS64 stationary decoder, then daisy chain the 6-wire telephone cable. Of course, the DS64s require DC power, but you can power 5 or 6 of them off a single 1A 12v-15c DC or AC transformer. Likewise, the whole panel only requires one telephone cable and one DC power supply.
Yes, it isn' the simplest option, but there are added bonuses too:
1. You get PC control as well as a panel;
2. You get routing. Ie: setting a turnout halfway down a ladder in a yard can control all other turnouts required to make the route. This can be set up in the DS64 itself so that you don't need the PC;
3. The DS64 includes inputs which can be used to verify the turnout position electronically if you have power routing turnouts.
SUX V R40 Rider You're not thinking I am running DCC are you? I am not and do not plan to. I'm the type of person who, once I figure out how it works, would rather rely on a technology that has been around longer than 10 or 15 years and is tried true and tested. Hence DC vs. DCC.
You're not thinking I am running DCC are you? I am not and do not plan to. I'm the type of person who, once I figure out how it works, would rather rely on a technology that has been around longer than 10 or 15 years and is tried true and tested. Hence DC vs. DCC.
Hi SUX,
Nope, not at all. But there's a lot of Digitrax customers out there who probably never heard of CML and your thread offered me the chance to mention it. Sorry for the hijack!
PS: Don't get on a plane ...
I wasn't disparaging the choice, just the reasoning. Sheldon is one who will never run DCC on his own layout, but his reasons include alredy having a top-notch wireless control system, a wiring scheme that allows him to run trains in a prototypical manner without all the toggle flipping of cab control, and no interest in on-board sound. That all makes sense, and I suppose if I had a large investment in years of building a layout that was fully operational it would be much harder to make a decision to switch.
But to say a standardized technology over 20 years old is "too new and unproven", ummm....
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
SUX V R40 RiderYou're not thinking I am running DCC are you?
No he is not, as evidenced by his statement that "You don't need to convert your whole layout to DCC, just the turnout control portion." I realize from your post there is virtually zero chance of you ever following this path, but I will comment on it for others who might be interested.
As stated, you could use Loconet for turnout control without converting your train operation to DCC. You wouldn't even have to buy a Digitrax command station, you could use a PR3(Loconet PC interface) as the Loconet "master". Going this route, setup and debugging would be easier with the PC, but it would not be required for normal operation. The neat thing about using Loconet is it would greatly simplify wiring. Instead of multiple wires going from the control panel to every turnout, all you would have going to the control panel is power and a Loconet cable. You could also have turnouts controlled from multiple control panels, each panel only having power and Loconet. If a turnout can be controlled from more than one panel, if it is changed from one panel it's indication will change on other panels as well.
Come now gents, lets not rag on someone's personal choice. The US Navy uses 20+ year old technology to run their submarine Engine Rooms for the exact reason as stated above: Tried and True.
As it is I think this thread has wandered a bit from the original topic.
For wiring control panels, there are a few basic practices that will pay dividends no matter what control style you choose: DC, DCC, or other digital controls.
1) As said before, label everything! Make schematics. Not professional ones, but ones you know you'll be able to read in 5-10 years time.
2) A Modular electrical design works well and can speed up troubleshooting, providing the interconnections (sockets/plugs) are of decent quality.
3) Cable management! Try to route wires along preset paths as often as possible.
4) Use as large a gauge of wire as you can afford (with in reason! 00 gauge for bus feeders is a bit much).
5) Use solid wire wherever possible, but not in areas where the wires will be flexed a lot. If the control panel will have a hinge, route all panel side wires down to the hinge and then back up to their layout side connection point. This will give enough slack to fully open the panel. Since this is a 'flex' joint, I'd recommend going with stranded wire here, even though it's a pain to work with sometimes.
6) Create a wire color scheme and stick to it! Black = -, red = +, etc etc.
7) Ditto for Labeling. The US Navy uses a pretty good wire labeling methodology: Source-Type-Destination.
Example: PNL03 - 12VdcTRK - BLK0124
This label can be anywhere on a wire and you will instantly know that its carrying 12 volts DC track power from Panel #3 to Block #124. Put a label like this on both ends as well as a few places in the middle and you're golden! You'll never again be confused as to what this mystery wire is.
That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope this spurs more discussion.
Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"
SUX V R40 Rider which would you rather sit your arse on? A material that has been in use for over 2,000 years and is tried true and tested or a material that has been in use for barely 200 years?
which would you rather sit your arse on? A material that has been in use for over 2,000 years and is tried true and tested or a material that has been in use for barely 200 years?
Do you sit on a plastic chair at your desk?
Sorry but that is the most unconsidered argument I have ever heard for not going to DCC.
Too new? But you use a computer....
The_Ghan I've been watching this thread for some time. It reminds me of a product available for DCC called the DTM30. Made by CML Electronics in the UK, the product is compatible with Digitrax and uses LocoNET to communicate. It works just like a Digital throttle. You don't need to convert your whole layout to DCC, just the turnout control portion. This means a basic Digitrax command station and stationary decoders. Then just build your panel. For those of you using a Digitrax DCC command station, or thinking of getting one, and would like to add a panel later on, this product is certainly worth a look.
I've been watching this thread for some time. It reminds me of a product available for DCC called the DTM30.
Made by CML Electronics in the UK, the product is compatible with Digitrax and uses LocoNET to communicate. It works just like a Digital throttle.
You don't need to convert your whole layout to DCC, just the turnout control portion. This means a basic Digitrax command station and stationary decoders. Then just build your panel.
For those of you using a Digitrax DCC command station, or thinking of getting one, and would like to add a panel later on, this product is certainly worth a look.
Another example of this is for some of you who know I am also a cyclist. Riding bike is my warmer weather activity and model railroading is my cold weather activity. That said I am a firm believe in steel framed bikes rather than carbon fiber or even aluminum frame bikes. I always tell people who love to tout about the carbon fiver and aluminum frame bikes, which would you rather sit your arse on? A material that has been in use for over 2,000 years and is tried true and tested or a material that has been in use for barely 200 years?
With model railroading I am beginning to realize it is the same way. As I progress through this hobby and discover what has been around for a long time and works very well compared to newer technology I prefer to go with the more reliable old school methods.
This, of course, is very nice wiring. But, LIONS cannot afford very nice wiring. LION must make do with what the LION has.
This 25 pair cat-3 cable goes around the entire layout. Each of the 50 conductors is represented on each of ten such terminal boards. Each wire is numbered. Keeping track of what wire does what is simply a matter of recording it in the book. Each wire can of course only be used once, but on a siding for example, the same wire can be used for two switch machines, on at each end of the siding. Because of the way I wire, each Tortoise uses only one wire: -12vdc = normal; +12vdc = reverse, and thus can also be used for block signals and power relays all at the same time, and controlled from a single lever on the control tower.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
This is one of my control panels I built for my HO layout. I used a pc of .080" aluminum sheet for the panel and made the artwork in Coreldraw on my computer. I had it printed by a local blueprint shop on a coated paper and cemented it to the aluminum. My panel is framed with 1 x 4 and hinged to drop down to make it easy to work on when installing the switches and wires. I use terminal strips all over the place because it keep everything orderly and easy to trace. I also label everything for the same reasons. Once you start wiring it can get confusing real fast and it keeps you cool when you want to know where a wire in your hand came from or goes to. I also marked the track layout on the back of the alum panel with a Sharpie as it also gets confusing working backwards. Hope tis helps. PS: I use 20-22 ga wire for all my switches and LED's. This panel wasn't finished when the photos were taken as you can see by the many toggles that aren't wired yet.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
There are premade jumper blocks for screw barrier terminals
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103227&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032231
Suggestion: use two barrier strips and two jumpers. Wire one to one power pack terminal, one to the other, that then gives you up to 15 points to attach feeder wires out to the layout, although more commonly the inputs go on one side and the outputs ont he other - that's still 8 connection points.
I have this barrier strip: 8 Position Dual Row Barrier Strip I am using spade connectors from 3 rerailers and 2 turnout remotes, that is a total of 5 pairs of wires, plus the pair of spade connectors that go from the barrier strip to the power pack. Each screw on the barrier strip can hold up to 2 spade connectors.
Would the correct way to wire this be to connect each spade connector from the power pack to the first 2 screws on the strip, then the next pair going to the rerailer, the next and so on?
The LION was suggesting that you should make your power console once, wiring the turnout controls to the barrier strip. Thus no matter what you do out on the layout, the control console remains exactly the same.
You can even build block control into a standard console, and move the tracks about ad lib.
ROAR
If you have conventional 2-row screw terminal barrier strips, it's extremely unlikely you have the type where the pair of terminals across from one another are not already linked. It's pretty obviousl no electricla tests needed - just look under the screws, if there is a piece of metal joining them, they are linked already. Termiansl next to each other, as in seperated by the raised plastic 'barrier' that gives them their name, are generalyl NOT connected together. So if you have say a 4 position barrier strip and want to run 1 wire in and 3 wires out, you will need to jumper across 1 barrier for this to work.
Back in the early days before I knew better, I just cut wires and spliced in extra when needed. You might not match the exact colors alreayd used, but you cna get single conductor, 2 conductor, and 3 conductor wire in various colors. To extend the switch machine controls, just match up SOME color, and keep it consistent. Say the factory wiring used red-black-green but all you cna find is blue-white-yellow. No biggie, just cut the factory wire and splice in a piece, using red to blue, black to white, and green to yellow at both ends.
Lion, I have already drilled holes in the wood deck of the layout to run the wires under it to the power packs. I had to as it was becoming too much to run across the top and under the track bed. Yes there will be scenery. On top of the wood deck will be 2" insulating board what will have the holes drilled in it to allow the wires to pass through. On top of that will be scenery mat in what ever color is needed to match what ever I have built at the time. In the scenery mat will be slits cut to allow the wiring to pass through it to allow the wiring to connect to the turnouts, rerailers and where ever I have soldered wiring to rail joiners. The scenery mat will cover the holes in the insulating board under it and the slits will be so small I don't think they will be noticeable.
I also understand with using a barrier strip, depending on the type I have I may or may not have to jumper it, from one pair to the next, then to the power pack. If I am not mistaken the only way to find out is connect it without jumpering it, try it and see if it works.
My wife and I don't have kids, but thanks for the thought.
it is not so much what power the supply puts out. The question is how much resistance is in the wire you are using. It takes more volts to move power through a thin wire than it does through a heavier wire.
On your layout I would use zip cord between the transformer and the tracks. That is about 18 gauge stranded wire. What can happen with thinner wires is you will start to loose the slower speeds on your locomotives. A heavy wire is like a 1" diameter pipe: it does not take much pressure to pour a gallon of water through it. A thin wire is like a 1/8th" diameter tube, it will take MORE WATER PRESSURE (think volts) to push the same amount of water through the smaller pipe.
If you engine will start moving at 4 volts but you have to push 6 volts through the wire to get the first electron to your locomotive, then you have lost the first two volts of engine performance. (Other readers here tell me this is not so, but I found this to be the way things work on my layout.)
Since you are using a 4x8 layout and EZ Track, and will make changes frequently, I think it is better to attach longer wires to your turnouts, and to connect them to your control panel with terminal strips as you have first suggested.
If I were changing a layout that frequently, I'd not worry about the wires sitting on the top of the table. If you are going to do some decorating, then I'd drill holes in the table top, and when I move the track around I'd fill up the old holes with some modeling clay, if you can get it away from your six year old.
Elias
Lion, I think I am picturing in my head how you have yours set up. I should have pointed out my layout is a 4' x 8' island. For the mainline oval I am using Bachmann EZ Track, not continuous or flex track. So far I have 2 terminal rerailers and 2 remote turnouts. I was advised to use terminals to provide power to the track ever so many feet.
The reason I am using an island style is my intention is to change it every so often after my first initial build. The first build is the oval with a passing/pull off siding comprising of the Bachman track with the pull off siding on one side of the inside of the oval. On the other side a yard ladder comprising of Atlas Code 100 snap track using No. 4 remote turnouts will be built. To save on cost I am going to solder wiring to the metal rail joiners to provide adequate power to the yard ladder where needed.
The wiring coming from the Bachmann terminal rerailers and the 2 turnout remotes have had to be extended to reach where the power packs are. The original wiring is 22 or 24 gauge I believe. I used 20 gauge to extend it.
I know the lower the number for the gauge of wiring the thicker the wire. Is 14 gauge really necessary for my application? I didn't think the power packs put out that much of an electrical load. If I have to change it I will, but I would have to figure out a way to connect the plug connector to the Bachmann rerailers and how to take apart the bottom of the remote turnouts to rewire with heavier gauge wiring. Or do you think what I am using will be fine?
The vast majority of control panels are one-off custom designs, almost always fabricated by the layout owner or one of that person's electrically savvy friends.
Rather than use purchased terminal strips ($$$) I fabricate stud-and-nut terminal blocks, using 6/32 machine screws, nuts and washers assembled on a base of .120" sheet styrene (acquired by dumpster diving.)
The one thing I would strongly recommend is, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Several years down the road your memory will probably lose the information about which terminal on which strip connects to the (whatever) that just stopped working/went up in smoke. Paper records don't forget.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with bulletproof, fully documented, electricals)
There are two different kinds of wire that will run from your control panel to the layout.
The first is the POWER BUS, it should be 14 gauge wire, if your layout is not too big, zip cord will work too. Drop smaller feed wires down to this every few feet. Some say every three feet, mine are about ever 6 to 8 feet, but I solder my rail joiners.
The second connects to all of your switches. I use 25 pair cat-3 cable (Telephone cable) for turnouts, signals, relays and lighting. The only reason why I do not use terminal blocks is the cost. I cannot afford them. I use nails on a board as soldering posts. If your layout is not so big and you only have a few switches, you would be better of just buying a spool or two of hookup wire.
If you have some old parallel port cables laying around, you can salvage wire from them, or even use them as cables just like they are.
ELIAS
I have found images for control panels for model railroad layouts. The panel looks like they are prefabricated, not custom built. I am thinking this because on the section that looks like a yard ladder there are toggle switches coming through the panel and the lines on the panel look like the design of the yard ladder track. They look pretty elaborate. Are these panels something the guy may have made himself or are there panels like this available that are fabricated and sold to modelers?
My idea of a control panel for my layout is starting out as something rather simple. A 2' x 4' custom built table supported by folding banquet table legs with pvc piping for the wiring to run through to one of the 2 power packs I am using, one of which will be bolted to the table. the other is large and heavy enough it won't need to be bolted down. When there gets to be so much wiring I will have to use a terminal barrier strips. The remotes for the turnouts will be either bolted or glued, depending if it has machine screw holes or not. There will be at least one toggle switch, for now so I can power on and off the pull off/passing siding.
I have started to drill holes in the wood deck of the layout and run the wiring underneath it. Right now it is just hanging there but I will eventually tack it to the bottom of the deck. Because the layout is modular I think I will have to use insulated crimp style plug connectors where the layout modules come apart. My concern is the crimp connectors will not work as well as I want them to. I may use uninsulated connectors and solder them to the wiring and use electrical tape to cover the exposed wiring and solder joint.
Anything I should be concerned with that others have run into when wiring like this?