I am trying my luck at building an HO layout again after 50 plus years off. My question is what type of voltages shoud I be using on engines built today and what voltages for accessories. I have several old Tyco engines that I will probably run along with the new Bachmann engine. For accessories all I have so far are 8 Atlas switches.
I have 2 Tyco powerpacks (one is a dual control) . Their outputs say "22 volts AC for switches" and "1 to 18 volts DC for trains"
I have an Ampac unit and it says "AC 16 volts for accessories" and "DC 0-12 volts for trains"
The other power pack came with the Bachmann and doesn't look to impressive. I says "accessories 16V AC" and nothing for the track voltage.
So I have a choice of 16 to 22 volts for switches and accessories and 12 to 18 max volts for trains.
Which one do I use. I don't want to cook my new engine and switches with the old powder packs but I don't think the new powder pack will power much.
Any help will be appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Ken
East Texas
Only ever connect the rails to the terminals marked DC, To Trains. Never attach the rails to the Accessory terminals.
For a single train, they'll all work, pretty much equally. The Ampac one is probably the nice quality one.
You MIGHT have trouble with the new loco, using old power packs. Old power pakcs are almost all rheostat based, and modern locos tend to draw too little current to be well controlled by the older packs. It won;t fry the new loco, the issue wull be that as soon as you start increasing the throttle the loco will hit top speed and not be very controllable.
If your switches are all powered type, use one of the Tyco packs to run then, from the accessory terminals via the included buttons.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Either pack will work if you keep your trains to reasonable speed. DC motors are very forgiving on how much voltage they take. Subway cars run at 600 volts, but can also run on 440 volts or 750 volts without any harm.Remember: You are controlling the voltage with the throttle.
I have a voltmeter that I bought many many years ago (While I was still in the Navy) and I find my best operation at 10 volts, winch give my trains a speed of 50 mph, you probably want to run more slowly than that, so there should be no problem. Using heavier wires between the power pack and the tracks will give you better control at low speeds (or so I have found though others say this is not so). Be sure your rail joiners are all tight (many people solder them... but maybe you do not want to do this yet), but do bring power to your layout in several different locations: every 3 to 6 feet seems good.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Today, there are two types of systems for train control. The old type is still DC which is still in use today by quite a few modelers. The NEW type system is called DCC for Digital Command Control.
DCC can do much more that the older DC system, but is more expensive and takes some reading to understand. The main advantage is that you can run one or more locomotives on the same track independently. That is, you can control each one by itself. The layout wiring is easier also.
For DC control, Randy is correct. But remember, when you buy a new locomotive today, you can choose between a DC locomotive or DCC locomotive. BUT, if the locomotive has a DCC decoder installed in it, (like a DCC locomotive will have) there is a setting that will allow it to be run with a DC power pack. You can NOT run a DC locomotive on a DCC layout or power system.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I like the DCC stuff, but the budget doesn't allow for it at this time.
Is it correct to assume then that the switches will opperate at 16 or 22 volts without any damage? Also, if/when I install lights and so fort, do they opperate at 16 or 22 volts?
I am soldering 20 AWG wires to the bottoms of the joiners and placeing them about every 3 foot and then connecting them all together with 16 AWG wires. I should think that would power everything without much loss.
I guess my main concern now is the difference in accessory voltages.
Thanks for all the inputs.
Bis I like the DCC stuff, but the budget doesn't allow for it at this time. Is it correct to assume then that the switches will opperate at 16 or 22 volts without any damage? Also, if/when I install lights and so fort, do they opperate at 16 or 22 volts? I am soldering 20 AWG wires to the bottoms of the joiners and placeing them about every 3 foot and then connecting them all together with 16 AWG wires. I should think that would power everything without much loss. I guess my main concern now is the difference in accessory voltages. Thanks for all the inputs.
Correct.... But.... Twin coil switch machines such as Atlas and others will not be harmed by a nanosecond at 22 volts ac. I always ran them on 12 volts DC with no problem, but if you are using TORTOISE switch machines, then you need DC, and you also need not more than 12 volts.
Lights will operate at 16 to 22 volts, but will be too bright and will burn out more quickly. At 22 volts I think I would wire two or three of them together in series.
LIONS do not use bulbs any longer but only LEDs which are dc devices and need a low current. At 12 volts a 1000 ohm risistor in series with them will work perfectly and you could power thousands of LEDS with just a small transformer. (Not the the LION *EVER* bought a small transformer.
All my switches are the Atlas type. So I will be safe running them at 22 volts AC, correct?
Could I use one of my many power packs to drive the L.E.D.s. I could just dial in what looks good and leave it alone?
LEDs are current driven, not voltage, so you need a resistor to limit the current. The throttle (variable DC) of a paower pack won;t be able to fine tweak the voltage enough to make a difference. Howeve,r if you use say 14V incandescent bulbs, you can turn them down to a nice pleasing glow that will also make them last a long time.
For LEDs you are better off getting a regulated wall wart at Radio Shack and using the appropiate resistor.
Joe Staten Island West
Thanks everyone for the info.
I can see there is a trip to Radio Shack coming up.
Bis All my switches are the Atlas type. So I will be safe running them at 22 volts AC, correct? Could I use one of my many power packs to drive the L.E.D.s. I could just dial in what looks good and leave it alone?
No. LEDs will light with 5v forward voltage, and will look about the same all the way up to who knows?
But too much current will destroy the LED instantly. Just use the 9 or 12 volt output of whatever DC supply you are using and put a 1000 Ω resistor in series with the LED.
Get a Circuitron Snapper for twin coil machines. Feed the AC from the power pack into the Snapper. That will eliminate a lot of issues with operating twin coil machines.
You can also build your own.
Operating a twin coil right off a power pack can sometimes burn up a twin coil if the switch is held down to long. The Snapper prevents this. This has happened to many over the years and sometimes the burnt turnout is in a difficult position to get to. Twin coil machines go back a long way.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Rich- what is a "Circuitron Snapper" and where do I get one?
Lion-what wattage do I use with the 1K resistor, 1/8W, 1/4W?
Circuitron Snapper.
http://tinyurl.com/cmtzgyr
Many LHS and on line hobby shops.
1/4 watt is just fine.
Here is some basic info about LED's. Also, on line calculators.
http://led.linear1.org/category/led-basics/
Thanks Rich.
That was a big help.
Bis Rich- what is a "Circuitron Snapper" and where do I get one? Lion-what wattage do I use with the 1K resistor, 1/8W, 1/4W?
1/8th of a watt is more than enough, but go any smaller, and all you would do is drive up your costs.
Running old open-frame motors (almost all of my locomotives are old enough to serve as President) an old-style rheostat-based power pack is adequate. Just run the train at appropriate scale speed and you can put DC maximum voltage on disregard.
The same is NOT true with modern motors. They don't draw enough current for the (usually) 40 ohm rheostat to reduce their speed to something below Warp 2, so you have two speeds, off and flank.
If you are intrepid (and careful) it's possible to open up an ancient power pack, replace the old selenium stack rectifier with a modern diode bridge, then rewire the rheostat as a potentiometer. That way your throttle knob will control voltage, not resistance. The potentiometer will use slightly under 1/2 amp, and will generate about 6 watts of heat. To save the price of a new power pack, I can live with that. The advantage is that it will still run my old open frame motors as well as the can motors in my Spectrum locos.
I agree that the little power packs that come with toy trains aren't very impressive. My sister (the yard sale fanatic) has gifted me with a number of them. After my 2-motored ED16 class catenary motor ate one alive I relegated them to service for structure lighting.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in 1964 - with analog DC locos bought in that decade)
Chuck- I don't know if I am quite that ambitious to try to rebuild the power supplies. with my luck I would probably turn everything into charcoal :). Things sure were a lot simpler way back when.
I think a little more research is in order.
Thanks everyone for all the inputs. I appreciate everyone of them.
In this case at least, 'simpler' was somewhat akin to 'lack of understanding' at least back in the early days of model railroading. And 'lack of any alternative' since it wasn't until the last 50's that transistors powerful enough for train use became affordable. The only real alternative prior to this was the variable transformer - which is also not load dependent, but not a whole lot was said about them, at least in the hobby press. It might be remarked that so and so had very smooth running locos on his layout, and maybe mentioned the use of Variacs but it seemed to be unconnected - ie, the Variac was't the reason for the clearly superior running compared to other layouts. There was some mention of the rheostat resistence as the source of trouble when converting fron O to HO, and a brief mention here and there of wiring a rheostat as a potentiometer, but that's about it.
Once transistor throttles came along, at least in the DIY articles, teh theory was explained somewhat as to how the way the voltage was reduced by the transistor was no longer load dependent and as such offered smoother starting and speed control.
N scale came along and the smaller motors had even less current draw and the whole thing started over again - if you had a transistor power pack you were fine, if not, it was new power pack time.
SO if you want to be absolutely sure both old and new will work well, pick up a new transistor pack of some sort, like the MRC 1370 or the Tech 4 line. Use the old ones for accessory power.
Thanks Randy, I will have drag out the Wathers catalog and check it out.
Not to change the subject, but since you were describing the history of model trains, didn'y there use to be a "TT" scale I thought it was about the size of "N" scale or am I just having a senior moment :)
Randy, the original MZL circuits used variacs - one per master control section! Ed Ravenscroft (Former NMRA president) was quite wealthy, so he could afford to install a couple of dozen of them in the Zone track diagrams and an equal number in his Master panel.
Since I'm nowhere near as wealthy, my version of MZL uses standard power packs, one per train, and selector switches, two (or more) per zone.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Bis Thanks Randy, I will have drag out the Wathers catalog and check it out. Not to change the subject, but since you were describing the history of model trains, didn'y there use to be a "TT" scale I thought it was about the size of "N" scale or am I just having a senior moment :)
Yes, TT scale is quite a bit older than N scale, but it was relegated to Eastern European countries during most of the cold war, and so were not seen over here on this side of the pond. You can google TT scale. There is also a T scale which has become more popular in Japan which is much smaller than Z scale.
So from Smallest to Largest (leaving out some of the British scales)
T Z N TT HO S O G 1, maybe somebody can place those for me.
T = 1:450
Z = 1:220
N = 1:160
TT = 1:120
HO = 1:87.1
OO = 1:76.2
S = 1:64
O = 1:48
Or rather than reinvent the Wheel all of the details are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_train_scales
Thanks Lion. Very informative.