I have a pretty good sized DCC layout and am thinking of adding 3 color signaling. I have no bus for signaling, or is one not needed -- see how little I know? I'm looking for the inexpensive route rather than the most ultra modern method. If possible, I'd like to avoid using the computer.
There is an awful lot of stuff about signaling out there, but unfortunately, I don't have years and years left to be able to weed this out. (Being retired for over 10 years, I find time is on a bullet train for crying out loud :) ). I tried the search here and it would take weeks to weed out things out that I might need. Maybe I used the wrong search words? I tried the web and there is a lot to buy out there, but I have no clue as to what is good or not. I would appreciate some help, if someone can do that. Some questions I have:
Has anyone done a comparison of the various systems out there with pros and cons? Is there a better or worse block detection method? Someone seems to have compared almost everything these days, so I'm hoping someone addressed signaling systems.
Does the new Atlas system work well or are there limitations I should be aware of?
Are there any websites or forums that deal with signaling? I found the train electronics forum on yahoo, but it's not easy to find the info in one place.
Are there any good books to read for the above? I tried our pretty good sized library district and found nothing. I tried Kalmbach and didn't see anything at the online site.
I see a lot of talk out there about using the computer and specialized software for using a signaling system. Will I really need a computer and special software to implement signaling?
What would I very roughly expect to invest in this for say, 6 double track mainline 3 color signals, ignoring the possible block sizes.?
Or is this something too complicated and takes too long to install to get into at this point in life?
Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Ken
What is your goal with the signals? Do you want to have them accurately reflect the passage of trains, changing from green to red as the train passes, then to yellow as it moves further along and finally back to green? Or, are you happy with something that changes color with some simple condition, like the position of a turnout up ahead?
I've gone with the simple solution of using signals as turnout position indicators. This is very easy, using either a small relay for a few dollars, or, if you drive your turnouts with Tortoise machines, the built-in contacts beneath the machine.
Others have much more prototypical signal systems, and I'll leave it to them to describe what they've done.
Regardless of what you do, though, you're moving in the right direction. Everyone loves signals, and they do a lot to enhance the look of your railroad.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I prefer the accurate reflection of train movement. As you suggested, I already have my Tortoises reflecting my turnouts positioning.
Thanks for replying.Ken
There is a group on Yahoo dedicated to signaling both real and modeling. It does depend on how much time and money you want devote to it. As the other reply said do you want it to function like the real thing or a simplified representation that will look like a signal system. The big difference will be time and money..
There is a Kalmbach book
YAHOO group is Railway-Signaling
Ron High
Can you tell me the name of the train electronics group on Yahoo?
Hi Ron, the group is called mrrelectronics (yes, 2 rs). Another which has little activity is trainelectronics.
Yeah, I figured it was going to cost some big bucks.
Thanks for the heads up on the yahoo group and the book. Ken
Ken,
i am new here as well but I have thought a lot about signalling. In the last two weeks I started installing switch indicators in the form of dwarf signals, Bicolor LEDs in series with the tortoise. Do you have turnouts controlled with DCC? What is your DCC system?
Re: automatic back signalling this is what I have learned:
1. Two types of detection mechanisms: optical (e.g., Circuitron maker of the tortoise) and current sensing (Atlas, Digitraxx). The former is easier to wire but suffers from not knowing the initial state until one pass of a train complete. The later requires more wiring mess especially if you did not start that way and will only detect locos or rolling stock which have resistors across wheels. I see people with large layouts using the later.
2. There is no "off the shelf" way to avoid computer control if you want block detection and switch positions combined to show proper aspect. Using a computer would also mean turnouts need to be DCC.
3. I would look at the Digitrax system as well ... It might play better for computer integration down the road.
Hope this helps a bit.
Ken: I have also recently started to install some signals on my layout.In the yard I have dwarf signals hooked to tortoise machines for switch position indication,but on the mainline I'm installing "Signal Animator" or "Block Animator" systems by Logic Rail Technologies ( http://www.logicrailtech.com/ ). They seem to work well for what I want. I'm a lone wolf modeller,and these give me a realistic look without all the wiring of a truly prototypical system.If you are serious about operating your layout with a group,other systems may be better for that. I am not affiliated with Logic Rail,just a customer.
Mike
Here is a system that has possibilities
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/APB2.HTM
I bought a couple of his DC throttles a few years ago they work pretty well.
I have a full blown CTC / ABS signal system on my layout. You are right that it is not for everyone. However, I have a web page that gives you some basic information on signals and how to get started. It also explains the basics, and has links for the various manufacturers but is by no means a complete list. Here is the link:
http://waynes-trains.com/site/Signals/Model-Railroad-Signaling.html
Now, as far a a simple working system that will look good, I would go with the Logic Rail Technologies Signal Animator.
http://www.logicrailtech.com/index.htm
Look on the menu at the right side and look for “Signal Animator”. This is about as simple as you can get and does not require a computer. It isn't even wired to the track or DCC system. It uses an IR detector. If there is a drawback to this system, it is the signals are not linked to each other. Each is a stand-alone device. That can be both an advantage and disadvantage, depending on what you are looking for.
Dave Vollmer used to be on the Forums and installed some on his N scale layout and made a couple of videos. It really looks good. Search on YouTube for Dave Vollmer. Here is one link that shows them working:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wTFDMRFLGc&feature=player_detailpage
Hope this helps.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Hi NP01
My system is an NCE PowerPro. Of my 58 turnouts, about 22 have Tortoises and the rest are manual. None are controlled by DCC decoders so it would be quite expensive to install a decoder for each turnout, So I guess computer use is out of the picture. I do have LEDs in series with the Torts and give a nice visual display on track diagrams.
It would also be too expensive to switch to Digitrax at this point.
Thanks for the input. Ken
Hi Mike,
I'm pretty much a lone wolf myself.
I'll take a look at the 2 systems you mentioned.
Thanks. Ken
Hi Ron, yeah looks interesting. Looks like I'd need 1 card/signal. Any idea of their cost?
Thanks for the info. Ken
Good info for me on your web site.Im going to look into the Signal Animator. THe video link you provided was interesting -- I'll look for more tomorrow.
No need to 'switch' - the NCE bus really isn't designed to handle signalling on top of the cabs, but Digitrax Loconet can. ANd you cna run a Loconet bus without switching your cabs and command station. In fact you cna run a Loconet bus withotu buying a single product from Digitrax, although the SE8C signal controller is quite economical. It does need a computer connected to actually handle the logic, using either free JMRI or paid RR&Co software. There are other Loconet options from RRCir-Kits, Logic Rail, Team Digital, and CML. And plenty of DIY options as well. This is actually quite common, there are several NCE users who use Loconet for their signal system while retaining the NCE to drive the trains. JMRI can simultaneously talk to both, using the Loconet for the signals and allowing you to also use things like WiThrottle for iOS and Android phones as additional wireless throttles.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Ken-
To achieve the realistic CTC/ABS sytem of signaling you want to implement, take a look at http://www.rr-cirkits.com/ Dick Bronson, owner, is a great guy and will help you through the process.
I use the same DCC system you do. I am also in the preliminary stages of signaling my railroad. You do not need to have stationary decoders or Tortoises for each turnout. You will need at least a relay for each turnout so the program [JMRI PanelPro] can detect turnout position.
Also, a reliable, CTC/ABS signal system is not cheap: each block will require signals, detection, and hardware. At least the JMRI software is free and has a great user help/community.
Like any new endevour, you will have your learning curve. You're never too old to learn.
Erik Fiske
I couldn't fix your brakes, so I made your horn louder
NP01Re: automatic back signalling this is what I have learned:
I think you mean Automatic Block Signalling
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/signalbasics/
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
kenkal Of my 58 turnouts, about 22 have Tortoises and the rest are manual. None are controlled by DCC decoders so it would be quite expensive to install a decoder for each turnout,
For basic cosmetic signaling such as switch point indications, you don't need DCC controllers for each turnout, nor another type of buss, nor a different DCC system.
kenkalI'm pretty much a lone wolf myself.
If you won't have multiple trains operated by multiple people, true ABS or CTC would be overkill. The Logic Rail Tech products mentioned earlier provide a nice visual simulation of signals with much less complexity.
The Layout Design Journal offered a three -part signalling series in LDJ-41, LDJ-43 and LDJ-46, discussing some of the options for cosmetic versus fully-functional signals.
cuyama I think you mean Automatic Block Signalling
Yes! Typo!!