If anybody needs more help on this subject and has access to MR JULY 2002, VOLUME 69, NUMBER 7 edition.
Look on page 74. 'One turnout (tortoise), two controls'. Page 75 has two diagrams (with colored coded wire), one for two control locations and one for adding dispatcher control.
For my home shelf switching layout, DCC offers no real advantage except sound. I don't consist, and in 1900, precious little railroading was done at night on short and logging lines. A working headlight and some handheld lanterns were as good as it gets when light was needed. Wiring for DC is just as simple as DCC in my situation, with just one train running at a time. Which is simpler when there is more then one engine on the layout - turning off the second engine with a toggle, or selecting the first engine on my throttle? Walkaround throttles (with momentum, smooth starting, etc) are still available for DC. Or if really pinched, I could wire a DCC decoder upstream of the block toggles (with the motor output to the track) as a DC throttle run by a DCC control throttle. Would be a lot easier than installing a decoder into an 0-4-0T HOn3 switcher.
OTOH, at a modular setup, DCC is the only practical answer because of the ever-changing layout geometry.
Again, as has been said, it all depends on what you want out of your control system.
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon in HO and HOn3, where it's always 1900....
wjstix Not to spin off topic here, but I don't agree with the position many folks have that DCC and sound are kinda the same - if you don't want sound, you don't have any reason to do DCC. Even if I didn't want sound - and given the expense, and trouble of squeezing a decoder and speaker into a small engine, there is an argument to made against sound - I'd still see DCC as a big improvement compared to DC. With a comparatively inexpensive non-sound decoder, you get the ability to speed match all your engines (which really is pretty easy although some folks seem to struggle with it) so they all start, run, and stop the same. Multi-engine lash-ups become very easy. Plus they don't jerk, they ramp up slowly to speed and drift to a smooth stop, thanks to momentum. In recent years, you can get decoders with "keep alive" and similar things that keep the engine running even if it hits a brief loss of power on dirty track or at a crossing or turnout. You get many lighting benefits - the headlight can be on when you're stopped, or the lights in a middle unit in a consist can be off. You can turn on each headlight, mars light, cab light, or the number boards separately. Layout wiring becomes incredibly simple compared to chopping up track into little blocks with toggles to throw to (hopefully) assign the right section of track to the right controller. You just dial up the engine you want and go. Plus of course walkaround / wireless radio control is an option.
Not to spin off topic here, but I don't agree with the position many folks have that DCC and sound are kinda the same - if you don't want sound, you don't have any reason to do DCC. Even if I didn't want sound - and given the expense, and trouble of squeezing a decoder and speaker into a small engine, there is an argument to made against sound - I'd still see DCC as a big improvement compared to DC.
With a comparatively inexpensive non-sound decoder, you get the ability to speed match all your engines (which really is pretty easy although some folks seem to struggle with it) so they all start, run, and stop the same. Multi-engine lash-ups become very easy. Plus they don't jerk, they ramp up slowly to speed and drift to a smooth stop, thanks to momentum. In recent years, you can get decoders with "keep alive" and similar things that keep the engine running even if it hits a brief loss of power on dirty track or at a crossing or turnout.
You get many lighting benefits - the headlight can be on when you're stopped, or the lights in a middle unit in a consist can be off. You can turn on each headlight, mars light, cab light, or the number boards separately.
Layout wiring becomes incredibly simple compared to chopping up track into little blocks with toggles to throw to (hopefully) assign the right section of track to the right controller. You just dial up the engine you want and go. Plus of course walkaround / wireless radio control is an option.
Agreed, but that is not really what I said. If you want sound, you need DCC. That is separate and apart from other reasons to want DCC.
And again, DCC is usually the best choice for most people these days.
But the list of reasons you give don't completely hold up.
I use DC.
And I have:
Wireless throttles
High quality full voltage pulse width modulated speed control with at least some of the constant lighting effects similar to DCC.
Speed matching is not an issue for me. Being a 1950's modeler, matched sets of diesels run fine in DC, And a great many steam loco models these days are geared enough the same to run together fine even across different brands and wheel arrangements.
For example my Bachmann 2-6-6-2's run just fine paired up with my Proto 2-8-8-2's.
And I don't have any block toggles. I have progresssive cab control that uses turnout routing and pushbuttons to allow full walk around control with minimum input.
With a dispatcher on duty, running a train on my layout is easier than DCC.
I do have signals, CTC, one button route control of turnouts.
Signalling and CTC require those "little blocks" with or without DCC.
So it all depends on what you want.
Sheldon
gmpullman ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have operated on layouts set up like that and found it very cumbersome, at least using Digtrax - In the past, I could never see the value in throttle control of turnouts. However, after the latest 600 series throttles turnout control has been considerably improved. You can still maintain locomotive control and see your turnout status in the upper-third of the screen. I have only one DS64 on my layout for route selection through a yard so I occasionally play with its inputs using a throttle. It functions as expected and can be an asset in some cases. Regards, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have operated on layouts set up like that and found it very cumbersome, at least using Digtrax -
In the past, I could never see the value in throttle control of turnouts. However, after the latest 600 series throttles turnout control has been considerably improved. You can still maintain locomotive control and see your turnout status in the upper-third of the screen.
I have only one DS64 on my layout for route selection through a yard so I occasionally play with its inputs using a throttle. It functions as expected and can be an asset in some cases.
Regards, Ed
There is no question that the 600 series throttle is a big step up from the old throttles.
But twenty years ago I had to make decisions about what I was going to invest in regarding a control system.
I chose not to go DCC based primarily on two factors, my lack of interest in sound and the ergonomics of the existing throttle choices.
A secondary factor was the cost and work involved in decoder installation for 140 locomotives.
All of these factors have changed, but I am not unhappy with my choice. I like control panels, and the tactile feel of buttons.
The Aristo radio throttles have proven to be very reliable and simple to use.
And my integrated turnout control, cab assignment, signaling system is very user friendly. Two decades ago I installed the same system on a friend's layout. The DCC users in our group were amazed at how easy it was to use. That gentleman has passed away, but his family still maintains and operates his layout.
I tell new people to go DCC, but I'm not one to keep "upgrading" stuff that is working fine for my needs.
Even with starting a new layout, all this stuff is here, paid for in 1998 dollars. The small extra features DCC would provide to not justify the time or expense at this point.
I understand that you and many others enjoy onboard sound, and DCC, or some other decoder based command control, is the only practical way to deliver that.
I find for me that sound quickly becomes annoying. I think the only way I would like sound is if I modeled in a larger scale and only ran one train at a time.
And my relay based controls add an authentic 50's feel to operations.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI have operated on layouts set up like that and found it very cumbersome, at least using Digtrax -
wjstix I contemplated different ways of doing this on my layout. My industry / spur track turnouts are manual, but I have two sets of three turnouts each at two different interlockings that are controlled by switch machines. What I ended up doing was connecting them up to accessory decoders. I only used four, as each interlocking area included two turnouts that always work together to form a crossover, and I found one decoder would work both together. Since I use a radio-control walk around, I can throw the six switches from anywhere on the layout, so I ended up not bothering with any toggle switches or such.
I contemplated different ways of doing this on my layout. My industry / spur track turnouts are manual, but I have two sets of three turnouts each at two different interlockings that are controlled by switch machines. What I ended up doing was connecting them up to accessory decoders. I only used four, as each interlocking area included two turnouts that always work together to form a crossover, and I found one decoder would work both together. Since I use a radio-control walk around, I can throw the six switches from anywhere on the layout, so I ended up not bothering with any toggle switches or such.
Well, if you use DCC that is one approach.
I have operated on layouts set up like that and found it very cumbersome, at least using Digtrax - 5 button pushes to throw one turnout/select one route - my system does that with one button push.
Since you only have six turnouts to control, your choice should work pretty well. On a layout with 100 mainline turnouts, keeping track of turnout numbers is a job. having to look at something to remember defeats the idea of being able to contol them from anywhere.
Using my relay approach, if turnout controls are grouped on "tower panels", wire counts can be greatly reduced.
Once the two control power wires are present at the panel, only one wire per pushbutton, or two per turnout/route, is required. So a panel with 6 turnouts would only require 8 wires, and a duplicate location panel would only require 8 wires, all of which would come back to a relay panel located near the group of turnouts.
From that relay panel, 2 wires would run out to each switch motor.
gmpullman gregc it makes sense to have one set of LEDs near each switch. I do. ATLANTIC CENTRAL No, for the LED's to show the correct position of the switch motor they must be between the last switch in the chain and ther switch motor. Correct. That's why I wired it the way I did. It works. I just used the turnouts on a passing siding tonight. There's no guessing which way the points are thrown. Plus I have a thousand feet of four conductor 22 ga. wire, why not use it. Regards, Ed
gregc it makes sense to have one set of LEDs near each switch.
I do.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No, for the LED's to show the correct position of the switch motor they must be between the last switch in the chain and ther switch motor.
Correct.
That's why I wired it the way I did. It works. I just used the turnouts on a passing siding tonight. There's no guessing which way the points are thrown.
Plus I have a thousand feet of four conductor 22 ga. wire, why not use it.
And if you don't need or want the controls in a track diagram, it is a simple and effective method. I used it on several previous layouts.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo, for the LED's to show the correct position of the switch motor they must be between the last switch in the chain and ther switch motor.
right
so the wiring goes from the supply, to switch-1 location, to switch-2 location, back to switch-1 location and finally to the tortise. too bad
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregcit makes sense to have one set of LEDs near each switch.
gregc gmpullman it makes sense to have one set of LEDs near each switch. not sure it's obvious that the LEDs can be anywhere in the circuit and a set can be wired between the switches
gmpullman
it makes sense to have one set of LEDs near each switch.
not sure it's obvious that the LEDs can be anywhere in the circuit and a set can be wired between the switches
No, for the LED's to show the correct position of the switch motor they must be between the last switch in the chain and ther switch motor. This means redundant wires back to the first location, just like Ed has it drawn.
I prefer pushbuttons so that you don't have toggles that are in different positions relative to the switch position depending on which locaton was thrown last.
And if you are wiling to trust the relays to indicate position, you can wire the LED's as shown in this diagram and run fewer wires to all locations.
Using lighted mini pushbuttons allows them to be right in the track diagram to indicate the route.
This is just a rough sketch I made up back when this same subject came up in April of 2020:
Tortoise X2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Here:
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/281990.aspx?page=1
Good Luck, Ed
SCN RR Is there a wiring diagram for this option? I have wired a turnout like this but I seem to have an issue of it not working. I have double checked the wiring but can't seem to find the issue. Any thoughts or solutions?
Is there a wiring diagram for this option? I have wired a turnout like this but I seem to have an issue of it not working. I have double checked the wiring but can't seem to find the issue. Any thoughts or solutions?
richhotrain I use two DPDT switches for this purpose. I run two wires from a DC power source to the two terminals on one end of the first DPDT. Two wires from the center terminals of the first DPDT run to the two terminals on one end of the second DPDT. A set of wires run from the center terminals of the second DPDT to the two power leads on the Tortoise. I wire in a bi-polar LED to each DPDT to indicate the direction of the turnout.
I use two DPDT switches for this purpose.
I run two wires from a DC power source to the two terminals on one end of the first DPDT. Two wires from the center terminals of the first DPDT run to the two terminals on one end of the second DPDT. A set of wires run from the center terminals of the second DPDT to the two power leads on the Tortoise.
I wire in a bi-polar LED to each DPDT to indicate the direction of the turnout.
Alton Junction
TravelinJohnnie I am going to wire up a practice scenario with two toggles and see how it works.
I am going to wire up a practice scenario with two toggles and see how it works.
Bart,
Good luck and keep us posted.
Rich
thank you all for your responses. I need to think how this branchline will be operated in time as I am just finishing the benchwork on this extension. I am going to wire up a practice scenario with two toggles and see how it works.
Will keep you posted
Bart
There are a number of stationary decoders that will work with multiple parrallel monentary buttons, but unless DCC control is needed/wanted, a couple of relays and my ciricuit will be much less expensive.
Suitable surplus relays can be had for two or three dollars. Two 12V 4PDT relays will do a number of different multi location and/or multi turnout route controls.
If you use lighted pushbuttons like I do, yo can even light up the selected route on a mini track diagram with very little extra work or expense.
The do work that way, just a momentary pushbutton. There are other stationary decoders that also allow for pushbutton local controls, and nothign says you can't wire multiple buttons in parallel to have more than one control location. The Switch-Its tend to run somewhat lower voltage to the Tortoises, so adding sries LEDs may slow them down too much, so one fo the contact sets might have to be used to provide indicators at each operating position, sinc epushbuttons can;t themselves indicate which way the turnotu is lined. LEDs on fascia diagram are almost a must, unless the turnotu in question is ery visible to someoen at either location, in which case you could do the old LED disguised as a dwarf signal trick and put the indication trackside instead of on a panel.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
TravelinJohnnie I have a DCC powered layout ......I know there is the DCC control option of turnouts but I am asking if there is a way to wire two toggles to do that job.
I have a DCC powered layout ......I know there is the DCC control option of turnouts but I am asking if there is a way to wire two toggles to do that job.
May I throw out another option? Use a turnout decoder such as an NCE Switch-It. This particular decoder has a push button connection option. If the instructions are to be believed, you only need a single momentary contact push button at each control panel to toggle the turnout back and forth. The two push buttons are wired in parallel, so there is no need to make a connection between the two panels. And if you ever decide that you want to operate that turnout from the handset, you can do that also. Information is here: http://www.ncedcc.com/images/stories/manuals/switch_it_c.pdf
Yep, it can be done.
I have several situations in which I have dual DPDT switches to control a turnout from two different locations.
Like Fred suggests, a simple relay circuit can do this with push buttons.
Actually it does not require a latching relay, simple 4PDT relays can be wired latch themselves and can easily be used to control complete/complex turnout routes, not just one turnout. And it can be done from as many locations as you wish.
And features like the Lion suggested, giving a master panel "control" of remote locations can also be done.
The same circuitry has been used to control motor starters in factories for over 100 years now.
Send me a PM if you would like the circuit.
Or, you can by DPDT latching push buttons for the daisy chain type wiring, and use LED's to indicate postion.
MisterBeasley Yes, you can "daisy chain" multiple DPDT toggles and control the Tortoise from any of them. However, they will work like "3-way" light switches in your home. The points will move when any of the toggles is flipped. The unfortunate result of this is that you can no longer tell the commanded position of the turnout simply by looking at the position of the toggle. If you're going to do this, particularly if you won't have a direct view of the turnout from each toggle, it's probably a good idea to add LEDs at each toggle to let you know which way the points are set.
Yes, you can "daisy chain" multiple DPDT toggles and control the Tortoise from any of them. However, they will work like "3-way" light switches in your home. The points will move when any of the toggles is flipped. The unfortunate result of this is that you can no longer tell the commanded position of the turnout simply by looking at the position of the toggle. If you're going to do this, particularly if you won't have a direct view of the turnout from each toggle, it's probably a good idea to add LEDs at each toggle to let you know which way the points are set.
We have this situation when using Tortoise or similar machines with our HOn3 Free-mo modules, as do our standard gauge cousins. Free-mo requires controls on both sides of the modules. And it is needed because the modules are reversible, and in setups we typically operate from both sides simultaneously.
We do "daisy chain" the toggles as Mister Beasley outlined. We turn the toggles (recessed into the fascia on the module side) so the handle moves horizontally, and not vertically. Then the handle position does not convey information about which way the points are set. We simply look at the turnout - LEDs on the fascia don't look right for HOn3.
A little more expensive and complicated system would be to use a latching relay or electronic equivalent. The toggles (or push buttons) would be momentary, and wired in parallel to control the latch appropriately from either side. The momentary toggle or push buttons would indicate which way the turnout is thrown. This solution probably results in extra turnout throws to "make sure" but is easier to use and understand.
A more prototypical solution - which a few guys are working on, and has been used by others before - is to attach working switch stands to the turnout throw. The switch stand moves when the turnout is thrown, but is not used to throw the turnout. The switch stand operates to indicate turnout position. An operating harp style switch stand is not too difficult to implement, but just like on the prototype the mast indicates "backwards" from the point position.
my thoughts, your choices
I tried this once on an older layout. For some operations I wanted to control the terminal from the tower, for others I wanted to get down there in the yard and work them locally. But of course my toggles HAD TO TELL THE TALE of which way the switches were thrown.
What I ended up doing was to install a switch at the tower location which would enable the local controls and disable the tower controls. In the tower, a blue light displayed when the system was on local control and the route lamps would display when it was under the control of the tower.
I forgot exactly how I did this, but that is how I solved this problem.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I agree.
The LEDs can be added in series with the Tortoise motor leads, and you can add two or three in series with it as needed. This is the simplest way and it works well. No dropping resistors are needed in this application.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have a DCC powered layout and I'm installing a turnout for a branchline that I will control using a tortise machine and want to be able to control the turnout from the main control panel as well as at the turnout spot itself. This spot is located on the other side of a view block from my control panel and I envision the need to throw the switch from both locations on occasions. I know there is the DCC control option of turnouts but I am asking if there is a way to wire two toggles to do that job. I am not sure of the correct terminology but I am familiar with the basics of wiring as I have wired a dozen or so tortise controls using DPDT switches on my main control panel.
Thanks in advance,