I am a newcomer to DCC and am planning to go all the way with the Digitrax Super Chief Xtra Radio when I buy my system. I do not want to start with tethered and have to start upgrading all the time. My layout is point to point and is linear/serpentine, therefore my decision to go with radio.
Knowing that a radio rcvr/xmtr such as the Digitrax UR92 is best located centrally within a layout room, and central to all users on the layout, is it best to have it located above the layout, or is it OK to have it mounted on the facia panel on the layout's edge close to the center of the layout and near the command station?
I understand the logic of having it above, because of operators possibly blocking the signal, but is this really a big problem for these units? I do have a part of my layout in an adjacent room, so I am wondering how critical its location would be. Would it be advisable to experiment with it, or am I being too picky?! Thank you for your input.
the 4000 sq ft K-10 layout in Maryville Illinois has a single UR92 fascia mounted somewhat in the middle of the room. We have used our DT402D's with it on a crowded open house and have had no issues at all. In the early part of this video link you can get a sense as to the size http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsp9gV0yCR8 The Digitrax Duplex has excellent range and coverage, so I imagine you would see no difference at all where ever you place it.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I'd experiment a little. People blocking the signal isn't really a problem; the only really big issue would be like a big metal furnace in the middle of a basement with an "around the walls" layout.
One thing to think about is if there are areas (like the other room) where the signal pick up is spotty, you might try using...well I forgot the name now, but the walk-around plug-in stations that have infra-red pickup. All Digitrax hand units do infra-red, so (assuming you're going to have several plug-in spots around the layout) having one or two infra-red ones might cover any areas the radio signal misses.
FWIW my layout is pretty small right now, just the first stages of a bigger basement-sized layout, but I'm using a UT-4R with a couple of the infra-red receiver / plug-ins and it works pretty well. As the layout gets bigger I'll add the radio receiver.
At home, the layout is in the basement. The throttles can control trains from 2 floors up. They work anywhere in the house. so again, I would be amazed if location makes much difference at all. The quoted range is a 300' diameter circle.
Mounted up high will work best. Large absorbent bodies of flesh get in the way when the UR92 is mounted down at fascia level.
Martin Myers
move it around untill you fing a good spot for you room concerning power plugs and easy visiability, I personaly dont like fashia mounting is I have a very stiff back and I dont want to have look around other operters to sre it
I mounted mine in a few places tempory with duck tape or with exreamly light clamping; Signal strenght was strong in any area, however i liked it at or above eye level. Also being visable at eye height, the leds are vivisabe from the main train door as welll as the main isle. exit all is turned off when sutting down
http://www.trainlife.com/activity/index/share/type/album_photo/id/306593/format/smoothbox
I've always figures mouting them high but upside down - with the antenna wires facing down - would give the best coverage in the railroad area (unles you really want to be able to run trains inthe basement from up in the attic). This is based on experiences with wireless routers that also ue the 2.4GHx spectrum, not any sort of analysis with actual radio signal strength testing equipment, but is based on the idea that the radiation pattern will be stronger to the antenna side of the ground plane.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Any full height backdrops also just kill the range.
I have 4 of them in my 25 x 75 basement and I can get the signal anywhere in the room
UNTIL
I have a number of Operators - then the signal is GONE!
I have 4 UR92s to get the coverage down the aisles!
Best this is to experiment with different positions in the room.
If you will be having more than 2 operators - it might be best to test with everyone there in the room!
Still fighting my Duplex System since 2009 !
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Bob, you must have something interfering. Or something very wrong. The single UR92 at the K-10 layout works flawlessly. I would bet there was at least 50 people in the room the last time we used it. And, as I mentioned the UR92 is mounted in a waist height fascia.
Bob's been fighting various issues for a long time now. I don;t think the issue of backdrops ever came up before - just what are they made of? Aluminum flashing? Masonite and wood supports surely would not block the 2.4GHz signal, otherwise I'd never get my wireless to work up in my train room, through a floor and wall, or even out front of my house, throught THREE walls and down a floor. In an old building - with plaster and lathe walls and more likely than not, under vaious layers of paint, some lead-based paint.
He's also having issues with PR3s, alas I forgot to take my laptop along the night we stopped by to see his club's display over Christmas. Since My PR3 works fine with my laptop, that would at least see if the issue is a defective PR3 or something with the laptop, mine's an HP, his is Dell.
Bob, I agree with Simon and Randy. Mine is mounted on the fascia towards the back of the layout. Any where in the layout area it always receives the signal, unless the battery in the throttle is low. I can go to the other end of the garage and with parts of the layout and metal shelves in the way the DB150 still receives the signal.
And the building that the layout is in has a metal frame, cross members and metal roof. Out side with all of this in the way the signal still gets through.
May be I'm lucky or blessed.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
I am glad you all are having good luck with your setups.
My backdrops are Masonite.
But I have multiple Steel I beams running across my ceiling and they are grounded to earth ground (per NEC code - I have a Double Wide) and the Drop Ceiling Grid is also grounded to the I beams as it is hanging off those beams.
So it may be having some effect!
As for Throttle power - I am using the POWER-X 10v batteries - so I should not be low on battery power.
We also use checked fresh Energizer batteries in some of the Duplex Throttles and we see no difference in signal!
This is not some quick fix problem as I have been using the Duplex since it first came out (2009) and had MUCH BETTER operations with the old 0.6 software
When I upgraded the software the signal loss only got worse!
I completely rewired my Loconet 2 weeks ago - checked every cable and all were 100%
We figured out a way to backdate the software so we could test the Old Duplex (0.6) and the NEW Duplex (1.5a) to prove that they were way different in their operation.
The OLD software had much better signal distance than the NEW software as this was a side by side comparison - with just changing out the Throttles and UR92s.
I have spend a ton of money trying to get the NEW software to work in my basement environment as it is the basement not the system!
While running the Duplex in an open convention hall will always work - bring the ceiling down to 8 feet with all of that steel overhead and watch the signal go to carp!
My usual crew is about 20 operators - 18 running Simplex and 2 running DUPLEX.
I keep loosing the engine about every 30 seconds or so
BUT
I can run all day when I am by my self!
That is why I rewired the LOCONET as EVERYONE stated that was my problem.
The ONLY THING it did for me is I can NOW run the 1.5a software - where before I could not!
The losing the engines continues.
I have changed out the Command Station twice - no changes.
I do not have any other items hooked to the system other than the UP3/5s - UR91s (3) - UR92s (5) - DB200 (3) DCS200 .
We run a combination of throttles DT400R - UT4R - DT300R - DT100R - DT402D - UT4D
I have one DT100 plugged into a UP5 that is POWERED as it is a Pusher Throttle.
I have tried every suggestion anyone has made on the Digitrax Forum and have NEVER seen a change - good or bad.
As I have stated before - I was about the only one on that forum that had a good running ORIGINAL DUPLEX system - UNTIL I upgraded my software.
And NOT all of the equipment was upgraded by me - as I purchased a lot of NEW pieces form Digitrax so I knew that it was properly software upgraded - eliminating any possibility that my computer/PR3 might be a problem!
As I said - I have dumped a ton of money into this project - and seeing minimal gains!
Some say to contact Digitrax - they are going to tell me to do the same things that those on the forums have already told me to do!
So there it is in a nutshell!
What a nightmare Bob. So basically it does not work well in a grounded Faraday cage, at least that's what the description sounds like? You are essentially operating the radio inside a giant metal box, but with 8' ceiling and the dimensions you mention it is really not that huge.
I find if hard to believe that firmware/software upgrades alters the output power of the transmitter/receiver. More likely it has something to do with decoding in a noisy environment?
It also seems really strange that the output would be impacted inside the box, by what is surrounding the box? I wonder if the issue is not one of lack of power, but one of too much reflected signal from multiple sources? But I am far from an expert in this and wiser, more experienced minds must have considered the problem in depth.
It does not suprise me that the Command Station has nothing to do with it.
Simplex works fine I take it?
The K-10 layout is in a huge metal building with very high ceiling. My home layout is in typical wood frame, so both very different environments to yours.
simon1966
Yes it is! (nightmare - that is)
And everyone misses the point about it being a Faraday like cage!
Some stated that to be one I needed metal all round the basement - which I do as the block walls have wire reinforcing it them as does the floor.
But that is something else.
The Simplex works great - no problems at all - which is funny now that we have the Duplex radios to ditz on the Simplex is so great but back a few years the Simplex was the one having problems - my how times have changed! ;-)
As you had stated it probably is a lot of reflected signals and the 3 UR92s are probably flooding the DT402D as the reflected signals arrive at the throttle micro-seconds apart and the throttle is thinking it has received 3 signals and is trying to respond to all of them which then generates another bunch of offset signals and it just goes on and on!
At least this is the thinking we are coming to a conclusion to as I have been talking with a number of Networking IT guys about this problem and they state they are seeing similar problems with all of the WIFI in large networks.
At my next OPs Session I am going to try and record the Loconet traffic using decoder pro and then send the complete 3 hours to Digitrax to see if they can see something.
Actualyl this seems to be worse than a Faraday cage. Things are suppsoed to work well inside a Faraday cage, just not communicate outside, just liek things outside should not be able to detect what's inside, nor interfere with it. Instead of a Faraday cage, that grounded metal ceiling is acting like a signal sink, and a highly effecient one.
Hmm, is any point of the DCC system grounded to the house ground? This should be only at one point, with a heavy ground wire run between boosters. If it already IS set up that way, try disconnecting the link to the house ground to isolate the layout.
Randy
The ground thing was also proposed on the Digitrax Forum.
I HAD the system EARTH grounded for years.
At the suggestion of the D forum - I disconnected it.
NO CHANGE!
This is what is getting me down!
Any change I do from others suggestions or some idea I come up with on my own
Makes NO CHANGE - for Better or Worse!
One would think that some suggestions would surly make things WORSE! - BUT! They don't!
Well, the only additional change I could think of that might make a difference would be to hang the drop ceiling grid with something that insulates it from the metal above. A few grounded steel beams is not the same thing as a closely spaced metal grid when it comes to RF.
This could also explain the difference between the 915MHz simplex and 2.4GHz duplex in operation, as the spacing of the grid determines the effect on various wavelengths.
Mine is high on a wall only because when I installed it I was still using one throttle in infra red mode. Now all my throttles are duplex radio. I have no difficulty at all on my 16x18 foot layout.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Unfortunately - the I-Beams have cross bracing spaced on 4 ft centers.
And without a lot of proof - I don't think that the Ceiling Grid being insulated from all of that steel is going to change things.
Why did I have such good luck with my Duplex before I made the change to the 1.5a software.
Remember I stated that I had went back to the 0.6 software and the layout returned to good Duplex operation!!!
My layout is over 2500 sq ft in 3 rooms!
My sons layout - about the same size of your layout works very well - like yours with Duplex.
YET my layout does not - with the NEW 1.5a software!
Works good with the OLD 0.6 software
Sure looks like the software change did something to the Loconet communication!
I guess your test results aren't super clear, it seemed that your last operation report said you still had loss of control as the session ran on even with the throttles that were downreved to 0.6.
The issues addressed witht he updates have generally been Loconet related - mainly compatibility with having UR92's and UR91's ont he layotu at the same time. If I remember the older Yahoo threads, there seemed to be some timing issues as to which thing responded first, the UR91 or the UR92, when the throttle was plugged in as well as when it started communicating via radio. Since the UR91 can;t be changed, everything has to be worked around it, so the only changes are to UR92's and DT402D's. I have a feeling part of the change reduced the number of duplicate messages sent by the UR92, which would make a bulletproof Loconet more critical. Miss the needed message - no workie.
The only thing cleanign up the radio environment woudl do it increase the range and potentially eliminate handoff issues movign from one UR92 to another. You may have adequate coverage in all areas until a large number of radio-blockign bodies get in the way, leaving potential weak spots between US92's that the throttles can't figure out who to talk to.
We do occasionally have issues witht he club layout, even in big open venues. UR91's are absolutely useless in Timonium as the NCE guys next to us kill DIgitrax simplex radio, that's been a given even since they both had radio options. Once in a while, a UT4D will drop communications. Sometimes it's as simpel as a dead battery, the ones we use have been recharged so many times they are reachign end of life and even a fresh one might not run for very long. Plus they aren;t the top notch Maha ones. Even Maha has several batteries - the most expensive ones are like the AA Sanyo ones I use in my digital camera, in that once charged they don;t self discharge. I still have 4 that I haven't used yet since I bought the set 2 years ago, they still have at least 3/4 charge in them. The regualr Maha Powerex batteries that everyoen recommends still have the self discharge issue, in that if you take them off the charger when full and then don;t use them for a couple of weeks, they will be mostly dead. ANyway, sometimes that's all it is, otehr times it is definitely the failure of the throttle to communicate when it wakes up - this is the problem I have if I am runnign my Geeps, which don;t have sound. Unless I get a reduced speed signal, I am not constantly tweaking the throttle knob or pressing any function buttons, so my throttle always ends up in sleep mode to save battery. One of our other guys, who is most likely to be outside the layotu allowing kids to drive, his throttle only ever drops when the battery dies, because the kids are constantly blowing the horn and changing speed. Or at the last show, a kid accidently changed the address setting which on Duplex just dispatched his runnign train at the current speed. We generally operate with a single UR92 on a pole about halfway along the layout, although with the latest extensions, if all modules are in use, we put a second one on in the fascia at the far end, because all the recent additions connect on to one side of what used to be the middle. I keep tellign them NOT to set up the microwave on a table next to the primary UR92, but they do anyway, and when someone heats up lunch, the radio goes kaflooey as the microwave swamps it. Only Duplex - the microwave seems to have no measureable effect on the SImplex radios when in use - which is a good thing, the show where th emicrowave gets used the most is one where we are setup alone and Simplex works fine in the venue, no NCE users killing us.