I was just looking at the Ring Engineering site and the product offered looks rather interesting. Does anyone here have any experience with using it?
Choo Choo Willie
CDN Dennis
Modeling the HO scale something or other RR in the shadow of the Canadian Rockies Alberta, Canada
It is a relatively new product that has not been on the market very long. From their advertising and some videos I've seen of it in use, it is an attractive alternative to DCC but is very pricey because of the single-source supplier, and there's always the risk of them not surviving.
I have seen the unit demonstrated at my LHS and it is slick. The RailPro is radio based as no info goes through the rails. The 2-way communication between Ring's decoders eliminates the need for speed matching in multiple locomotive consists.
I interviewed Tim Ring for a podcast in December (on iTunes) and he is an interesting guy. His company has been around with other products for over 10 years.
Price wise, his product is comparable to others. His base decoder has sound built in but I believe non-sound versions are about ready as are stationary decoders for accessories
There are some very nice features, in particular the auto speed match feature. Biggest issue is the size of the decoder/radio pack. Its going to be a real tough installation into anything small. No coincidence that the demos are all big modern diesel. No doubt they are working to address this?
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
It sure does sem nice, and Ring's been around for a while. But it's still a single source option from a company that few if any less casual modelers have ever heard of. They don't hold a huge portion fo the market like MTH does, and even so, MTH DCS hasn't completely taken over hi-rail. There will be a core group fo adherents who defend it to the death, liek those that love that IR thing, but widespread adoption like DCC? Not a chance withotu multiple manufacturers makign compatibl products.
The size will surely come down with future advances. The battery will be the biggest thing, but even that's improving.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker It sure does sem nice, and Ring's been around for a while. But it's still a single source option from a company that few if any less casual modelers have ever heard of. They don't hold a huge portion fo the market like MTH does, and even so, MTH DCS hasn't completely taken over hi-rail. There will be a core group fo adherents who defend it to the death, liek those that love that IR thing, but widespread adoption like DCC? Not a chance withotu multiple manufacturers makign compatibl products. The size will surely come down with future advances. The battery will be the biggest thing, but even that's improving. --Randy
Agreed, with a standard architecture available to any manufacturer, direct radio could easily become very big. There are now 3-4 players in this market, depending on what scale/size trains you are playing with. All are propriatary at this point, but so was command control before Lenz offered up DCC.
It does have a number of advantages:
Even using the rails for the power, dirty track less of a problem.
Less opertunity for signal loss/corruption
Much less "under layout" infrastructure.
The option of battery power, at least in the larger scales.
And currently, with both the RailPro and the Aristo TE Revolution, much better user interface than ANY brand of DCC throttle.
Actually, the way for DCC to fend off this "attack" is for some DCC manufacturer to come up with a throttle with a user interface that is as easy to use as the RailPro.
One of the big things that has kept me out of DCC is the poor design of ALL the user interface devices (throttles). Easy DCC is about the best, but sill not as user friendly as they should/could be.
Sheldon
Ecos has a similar graphical user interface as Rail Pro. This notion of icons and control via touch screen has been more prevalent in the European market than here. Its all personal choice of course, but I have become accustomed to small throttles that fit the hand well and don't really require me to look at them for basic functional control. Most of the graphic based systems I have seen are really require two hands and for the operator to look right at the screen. There is no reason at all why DCC systems could not go this route, other than by choice. Of course cost would have an implication. At $400 list compared to a top of the line radio throttle from Digitrax or NCE, it is almost twice the price. Things like this are coming as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxh2ex5Iyqc for Digitrax which really moves the control into graphics realm for those that want it.
simon1966 Ecos has a similar graphical user interface as Rail Pro. This notion of icons and control via touch screen has been more prevalent in the European market than here. Its all personal choice of course, but I have become accustomed to small throttles that fit the hand well and don't really require me to look at them for basic functional control. Most of the graphic based systems I have seen are really require two hands and for the operator to look right at the screen. There is no reason at all why DCC systems could not go this route, other than by choice. Of course cost would have an implication. At $400 list compared to a top of the line radio throttle from Digitrax or NCE, it is almost twice the price. Things like this are coming as well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxh2ex5Iyqc for Digitrax which really moves the control into graphics realm for those that want it.
Once a loco is aquired, the RailPro throttle does not take two hands any more than a DT400 does. I use DT400's all the time and I cannot aquire/dispatch a loco without looking at the throttle. In fact, getting my chubbt fingers on those tiny closely spaced buttons is the whole problem.
The price comparison is not valid simply from the standpoint that the RailPro, or any direct radio handheld eliminates the under layout booster/base station/etc.
I'm a nuetral observer, at home I don't use DCC or direct radio. Still using DC here, with base station wireless radio throttles.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The price comparison is not valid simply from the standpoint that the RailPro, or any direct radio handheld eliminates the under layout booster/base station/etc.
Sheldon, read their manual on their web site, for a non battery powered solution this is not the case. It is not just a case of hooking up 2 wires and away you go. For layouts powered with track power, which will be most HO layouts, until batteries become more practical, they actually tell you to wire as you would DCC with bus wires, and feeders every 6-10 feet. They even tell you to use the Quarter Test. Power boosters have to be no more than 15 feet apart and each power district has to be gaped. Auto reverse is accomplished by adding another PWR-75 at $250 odd. So for anything other than a basic layout, the under bench infrastructure is virtually identical to DCC and significantly more costly unless a basic auto reverser could be used (no mention is made that one can be). When DCC wiring gets complicated it is usually because of the need for signalling or power management. This would be no different with Ring. Guess what, if you get a short on the layout the Ring booster shuts down the whole section to which it is connected.
The only other difference would be the need for a throttle bus for non wireless DCC systems. But this is not especially costly or difficult to add. Most wireless DCC systems would not need this.
Sheldon, I also am an interested observer. I think this has a lot to offer, but saving on under deck infrastructure is not an advantage here and may actually be more costly.
It does look cool to use but what about all those DCC decoders we already have? I have 70 decodered locomotives. It would be like switching to Seargent couplers when you already have 2000 KDs. How would it work in a club type situation?
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
That's where the thing that Duncan at Tam Valley is workign on is neat - is uses the existing DCC decoder, soundor non-sound. Same issue in the end though, as a one-vendor solution, unless he makes it available for others to make.
simon1966 ATLANTIC CENTRAL: The price comparison is not valid simply from the standpoint that the RailPro, or any direct radio handheld eliminates the under layout booster/base station/etc. Sheldon, read their manual on their web site, for a non battery powered solution this is not the case. It is not just a case of hooking up 2 wires and away you go. For layouts powered with track power, which will be most HO layouts, until batteries become more practical, they actually tell you to wire as you would DCC with bus wires, and feeders every 6-10 feet. They even tell you to use the Quarter Test. Power boosters have to be no more than 15 feet apart and each power district has to be gaped. Auto reverse is accomplished by adding another PWR-75 at $250 odd. So for anything other than a basic layout, the under bench infrastructure is virtually identical to DCC and significantly more costly unless a basic auto reverser could be used (no mention is made that one can be). When DCC wiring gets complicated it is usually because of the need for signalling or power management. This would be no different with Ring. Guess what, if you get a short on the layout the Ring booster shuts down the whole section to which it is connected. The only other difference would be the need for a throttle bus for non wireless DCC systems. But this is not especially costly or difficult to add. Most wireless DCC systems would not need this. Sheldon, I also am an interested observer. I think this has a lot to offer, but saving on under deck infrastructure is not an advantage here and may actually be more costly.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: The price comparison is not valid simply from the standpoint that the RailPro, or any direct radio handheld eliminates the under layout booster/base station/etc.
Well that is disapointing, the Aristo TE Revolution does not have those types of requirements, not sure why the RailPro needs all that.
Any large layout will need some sort of power district system, but it sould not have to be so complex.
Does the RailPro have to have DCC type voltage =AC? Or can straight DC be used? If so suitable power district system equipment could be built for much less than DCC components.
I also question the need for all this feeder drop business, I know lots of medium to large DCC layouts that work fine with much more "sparse" wiring.
OK, I went on their site and read their manuals, seems to me the average home layout would do just fine with one to three power supplies depending on the reverse loop situation.
As I said, I know many DCC layouts that run just fine without all these feeder drops every 10-15 feet.
Personally, in DC, I have never fed a given track section (block) with more than one set of wires and have never had voltage drop issues - I solder all my rail joints - always have - 40 years no problems.
I don't know current prices on DCC bases and boosters, but I do that most of the guys I know have way more than $1000 in bases, boosters, circuit breakers and reversers. Three RailPro bases is less than $1000.
I think some type of wireless control is the way of the future. RailPro is just one step in that direction. Personally, I think eventually it'll be some kind of WiFi solution.
I would think that you could use straight DC or DCC if all the track is doing is charging the battery(s). One would probably have to go back to the old relay/sensor system for reverse loops in DC or maybe hook up a rectifier to the charger for DCC. They do say you don't have to have power on all the track, just use charging stations, like a track at an engine terminal or fueling station. It kind of depends on how long a charge will last and how long it takes to charge back up to make that practical. I don't really see why you would have to spend $250 on their reversing system. I suspect that may be a way of keeping you buying their products instead of others. There may be more to it, I don't know.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
I think we are mixing up systems here? NWSL is the one touting battery wireless control of DCC. I don't think Ring makes any battery claims?
RailPro does not use any batteries in the engines, only the controller. They use a DC power supply but thier receivers will also operate on a layout that runs 16v DCC, a/c. Each power supply supplies 5 amps and I am sure that eventuatly they will have a device to seperate power districts or possibly since it is already DC with no control signal overlapped, a standard low volt circut breaker might work. There is no need to connect each power supply to the next since no control signal is needed but the polarity with the adjasent district would need to be addressed. You already need reversers for DCC so no big deal to add them on a layout wired for RailPro. I'm sure the cost will drop or someone will develop a simlper, cheaper unit since it is only dealing with straight DC.
I am in the process on laying track on my new layout and I am doing the track buss the same as I would for a DCC layout, even though I will probably use RailPro. It will make it much easier to seperate power districts in the future and also provide seperate districts for signalling and detection.
There has been a lot of discussion on other sights about how this system is propriority and will not work on someone elses layout. You can still operate your engines on someone else's DCC layout as long as you also bring your controller. RailPro will not control anything DCC but your engines will work just fine on a DCC layout. You already can not use your own controller on someone else's layout unless they are useing the same brand as you are. The only part of DCC that is compatable between brands are the decoders and some of the hardware that controls reverse section and such.
If you already have thousands of dollars invested in DCC than this system is probably not for you. I personally have very little invested in DCC and I am strongly considering all my options. I have most of the DCC books that have been printed lately and all the complicated programing really turns me off.
If you have the same engine number as another club member with DCC, and you both have set the same address for your engines, you will need to do some reprogramming before you can use both. With RailPro, each reciever has it's own unique address and the controller will find any new products when prompted. No programming needed but there are simple setup screens on the controller to adjust your engines for sound and speed if you want. These adjustments are in real time with no programming track needed.
Cons at this time are few. Thier receiver is rather large but already has sound built in. Thier sounds so far are someone limited but with thier online support with a simple USB conection, will only get better, and are free.
They are working on a smaller, nonsound reciever and I'm sure with time even thier sound receiver will shrink in size.
They chose dirrect radio over other forms of wireless control for a reason. Direct control is very fast and allows thier stuff to comunicate without the added burdon of more external hardware. DCC has gotten very complicated with all thier hardware support systems that once again are brand specific.
While you do need to take a picture and send it to them to have it converted to a controller friendly thumbnail, I personally have no problem with it since DCC has no such option. For those guys that have an issue with this process, they can just use thier controllers withotu pictures. Personally I like the idea of having a picture available. The only problem I have with this is that I do not have all the engines I will be useing at this time and will be modifing some with various mods that will affect thier final appearance. I will have to wait for each unit to be completed before providing my photos. They will have lots of pics available of factory built engines on thier web sight that will work just fine for most guys.This resource will only get bigger over time. They have also stated that if you provide pics of custom engines that are one of a kind and you do not want to share those photos, those will not be available on the web. The main reason they post a photo rights disclaimer is that they have to cover themselves from all the lawsuit happy people out there. If that is still an issue with you, just stick with the DCC system you are already using without photos.
I still have some time before I pull the trigger on my control system purchase, but so far RailPro is in the top spot. I was seriously was considering DigiTrax. The utter simplicity of the system just has too many benifits. You already can find all the RailPro equipment for about 75% of the list price at TrainTek.
Prostreetamx said it pretty much right on. I started off with DCC but did not have much invested in it besides a handful of decoders. I run at the local club layout and for the most part DCC ran well. I started having problems when I began converting to sound and the programming and speed matching really turned me off, even when using JMRI. I saw Railpro and decided that the best way to find out if I like it is to buy it.
I've had it for several months now and will not go back to DCC. Not that there is anything wrong with DCC, there just isn't anything that it can do for me that Railpro can't (control-wise). If I ever built a layout I'd consider wiring it for DCC so that other operators could run their equipment, but for running locos Railpro is just so nice.
I have Railpro modules installed in 6 locos at the moment: 3 Atlas, 1 Athearn RTR, 1 Athearn bluebox, and 1 Broadway limited. They can be tricky to install because of the thickness, but I successfully got it to fit in a short GP35 with a speaker and resistors for lights. The control for single locomotives is very nice and can be fine-tuned in real time without having to use a programming track. Consisting works very well and I can run all of my locos together in any configuration without any real issue. I do have a loco that doesn't like to play nice with the others at slow speed, but it's a problem with the loco itself and not the Railpro hardware. It's also important to understand that it is not 'speed matching' like DCC, but rather load-sharing. It's not as evident when you are running locos light, but when pulling a train you will see that the couplers between the locos stay tight and all of them are contributing equally to the load.
The sound is great but somewhat limited at the moment. The GE FDL16 is the best I've heard and sounds exceptional when properly baffled. The 645 roots blower is great, as is the 645 turbo although I think it could use a bit more turbo whine. The great thing about the system is that each module is upgradable. I can add new sounds whenever they become available (567 and GEVO are being worked on at the moment) as well and software updates, lighting, etc.
For the pictures, Ring Engineering issues a "Photo conversion code" with each LM-1 purchased. They only require the conversion code when you are submitting a custom locomotive that will be available for others to download. When submitting pictures of stock locos, no conversion code is required and can be used later when painting and detailing is complete for that loco. I've submitted several picture of stock locos (taken by me) and will use the conversion code to have new pics made when the detailing and weathering is complete.
I'm very happy with the Railpro system. It is definitely not for everyone and it won't replace DCC, but is an excellent control scheme nonetheless. For those of you looking at starting a layout or who run at a club, I highly recommend you check it out and consider it.
-Kevin
Ring is reluctant to suggest battery power and is confident that their track power supply will overcome rail power problems... and there is nothing that would prevent the use of battery power. The NWSL S-CAB does support battery power recharged from whatever power is on the rails. The S-CAB also uses existing decoders.
The real beauty is that you could use the RailPro system for new locomotives and use the S-CAB to upgrade existing DCC locomotives.
Note that all this is speculation and there are not any remarks on actual experience with RailPro.
Hi Sorry for refreshing an older topic, but I thought that it would be better than starting a new one. Since the last time this post has been replied to, water have ran under the bridge and it seems Ring Engineering's railpro has taken a huge step forward and away from the DCC standards. You can see what's new on the Ring engineering Railpro system webpage: accessory modules with sound, home computer software to upload your images and sounds, + all what seems to be an already great system. I am considering switching from DC directly to Railpro. Anyone here have a fresher review of their experience with that sytem? Thank you!
I see Railpro as an also run as Bachmann is now going to go wireless on some. Being a big player I expect the same impact that their going into On30 did. Also their system is somebody elses and that other company is expanding what they do including a wireless plug-n-play in any DCC ready loco with battery expandability. No controlers to buy either as they will use a smart phone apt.
locoi1sa It does look cool to use but what about all those DCC decoders we already have? Pete
It does look cool to use but what about all those DCC decoders we already have?
I have pulled the trigger and have purchased a Railpro system. I have only converted 3 engines so far but have to say overall it was pretty easy and very easy to program. I did buy thier larger power supply after smoking 1 reciever useing a DCC supply without the control system unit installed. The Railpro controller did warn me the voltage was too high but I went ahead and used it. Much cheaper to use a well regulated supply like thiers. I did wire up all my track for DCC but it works just fine with RailPro. Now that they have a way to let you upload your own pics at home, that will no longer be an issue for most. I just don't think I need my engines to make cow sounds.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL One of the big things that has kept me out of DCC is the poor design of ALL the user interface devices (throttles). Easy DCC is about the best, but sill not as user friendly as they should/could be. Sheldon
I'm working on that Sheldon. I'm using a cheap $80 hardware solution the size of a deck of cards to act as a web page server which scales on many smart phones. In other words you use a smart phone to control your trains. But interface design isn't my forte unfortunately.
The plan was to map all similar functions to similar graphical buttons and let the server worry about the remapping.
For example brakes on WOW, Sountraxx, Loksound, and QSI all work and map differently. BEMF works differently. Horns work differently. Couple clash works differently. Mute and shutdown work differently on different decoders. The only thing that works perfectly between all them is F0, F1, and F2.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffin ATLANTIC CENTRAL One of the big things that has kept me out of DCC is the poor design of ALL the user interface devices (throttles). Easy DCC is about the best, but sill not as user friendly as they should/could be. Sheldon I'm working on that Sheldon. I'm using a cheap $80 hardware solution the size of a deck of cards to act as a web page server which scales on many smart phones. In other words you use a smart phone to control your trains. But interface design isn't my forte unfortunately. The plan was to map all similar functions to similar graphical buttons and let the server worry about the remapping. For example brakes on WOW, Sountraxx, Loksound, and QSI all work and map differently. BEMF works differently. Horns work differently. Couple clash works differently. Mute and shutdown work differently on different decoders. The only thing that works perfectly between all them is F0, F1, and F2.
Best of luck, but you are not likely to peak my interest much. I hate touch screen devices, they never work well for me.
I have a theory that not everyones body chemistry/electricty is friendly/compatible to that technology.
I find them to be down right unresponsive at times.
Not being into sound, most of that stuff does not matter to me anyway.
Here is the basic problem as I see it - Example - Digitrax
Endless wheel knob gives no sense of on/off
Display too small, not well lit - this is amazing for products aimed at group of people mostly over 40.
Display contains "cryptic" icons - again too small to see, even if I knew what they meant.
TOO many buttons - TOO small and TOO close together - my old fat fingers can't push just one, just like I can't type on a Blackberry.
Not to pick on Digitrax, most of the others are no better for different reasons.
IF I was into sound, if someone made a good layout based sound system linked to the throttle, I would only want it to ring the bell, and blow the horn/whistle - two buttons. The rest should/could be "automated".
So, for me the ideal system would have these buttons:
FASTER
SLOWER
FORWARD
REVERSE
EMERGENCY STOP
BELL
HORN/WHISTLE
ON/OFF
and maybe:
LIGHTS
but I model the 50's, can do without the lights thing personally - ditch light in not in my vocabulary.
DCC, direct radio, base station radio, it matters not. But I want hard buttons, few if any displays, one hand use, radio signal wireless.
I have that already minus the sound features - I'm waiting for something truely better than what I have.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So, for me the ideal system would have these buttons: FASTER SLOWER FORWARD REVERSE EMERGENCY STOP BELL HORN/WHISTLE ON/OFF and maybe: LIGHTS but I model the 50's, can do without the lights thing personally - ditch light in not in my vocabulary. DCC, direct radio, base station radio, it matters not. But I want hard buttons, few if any displays, one hand use, radio signal wireless. I have that already minus the sound features - I'm waiting for something truely better than what I have. Sheldon
That is actually quite easy to do with a $35 raspberry pi + switches + wireless network + 9 V battery + 5 Volt voltage regulator. It's about the size of a deck of cards and you can put it in any case you want. The problem comes when you try to change addresses or consist. You would have to assign engines from a main terminal. So in the end it's a tradeoff.
As there are many trade offs in this hobby.
I still see direct radio as the future, but even that is not a future I need for my operational goals.
As is, with my base station wireless throttles and advanced cab control, multi operator sessions are just like DCC, only easier for the operator. Operator picks up throttle, yardmaster sets route out of yard and clears train for movement. Dispastcher clears route onto mainline and clears train to enter mainline. Operator simply makes his train go/stop - no toggle flipping, no rotary switches, he just operates the train. Once on the mainline he is under CTC - the dispatcher clears his route in advance. he never throws a switch - electrical or track - he operates the loco. If he runs a red signal ATC stops his train, and we pull his engineers card :)
Dispatcher and yard master set routes with simple lighted pushbutton system right on track diagram panels. Detection shows them where trains are. Turnouts cannot be thrown under trains because, just like real CTC, detection within the interlocking locks out turnout controls. Trains only get green signal when route is set, powered to their throttle, and clear of other traffic.
Long before DCC, I once thought operating turnouts from a remote would be a great thing - I've done it on a Digitrax layout - what a pain!
DCC is too complicated and not user friendly enough - Railpro and Crest are way more user friendly - now they both just need to solve all their issues with sound systems.
Sound remains the biggest advantage of DCC - I'm not into sound, so I'm not into DCC.
Ill agree with Sheldon. I recently just got back into the hobby from being away from it for years. DCC looked so confusing to learn so I saw an ad about railpro and thought I would give it a try. I had no problems getting trains running right off the start. Two thumbs up for railpro!
Todd
I'm starting to put railpro modules in some of my Athearn Blue Boxes but am finding it somewhat difficult to fit the module in. Was wondering if someone had some suggestions of how to install in a both GP and SD Units?
Dakota2004 I'm starting to put railpro modules in some of my Athearn Blue Boxes but am finding it somewhat difficult to fit the module in. Was wondering if someone had some suggestions of how to install in a both GP and SD Units?
Athearn's Blue Box and RTR motor is rather tall and creates an issue when trying to mount the Railpro module directly above it. The easiest way to install a module in these older locomotives is to place the module directly under the rear radiator fans, as this will keep it clear of the flywheels and allow plenty of room for it to sit.
When I install on BB and RTR locos I usually will keep all my wiring up inside the shell, and have 4 wires come down to the motor area....2 for the motor, and 2 to tap into power pickup from the wheels (I hardwire all my electrical connections). I keep all the wires and module tucked neatly into the top of the shell by cutting some styrene strips just long enough to allow them to be wedged up in the shell, effectively keeping everything up there in place. The wires going down to the frame are kept long enough to allow me to remove the shell and place it upside down next to the frame for maintenance purposes.
Better yet, replace those Athearn motors with Kato, Helix Humper, or other cans. You'll have a bit more room to work with, they'll be quieter, and they draw less power (Railpro can easily handle the olderer high-draw Athearn motors though).
Hope that helps!