mfm37 Baltimore started using the 2008 code last April.
Baltimore started using the 2008 code last April.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BroadwayLion: There really is no "National Code". The NFPA(?) code is usually CITED by local codes. All codes are local. ROAR Agreed - but the code propagated by the NFPA, National Fire Protection Association for those who don't know, is called the "National Electrical Code" or "NEC" for short and both are registered trademarks of the NFPA, who actually "sells" the code to local governments and the industry. Wether or not all local jurisdictions use it is a seperate matter, and most have their own interpretations and additions to it. Sheldon
BroadwayLion: There really is no "National Code". The NFPA(?) code is usually CITED by local codes. All codes are local. ROAR
There really is no "National Code". The NFPA(?) code is usually CITED by local codes.
All codes are local.
ROAR
Agreed - but the code propagated by the NFPA, National Fire Protection Association for those who don't know, is called the "National Electrical Code" or "NEC" for short and both are registered trademarks of the NFPA, who actually "sells" the code to local governments and the industry.
Wether or not all local jurisdictions use it is a seperate matter, and most have their own interpretations and additions to it.
Sheldon
BroadwayLion There really is no "National Code". The NFPA(?) code is usually CITED by local codes. All codes are local. ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Guess I misspoke, I was talking about the national code. I got my start in Baltimore and back then Romex was not allowed in MFR only BX, in fact I remember when Romex was first allowed there.
BroadwayLion rrebell: I really would not worry as long as all are plug-ins and then I would make sure I knew when the inspection was and have it all unplugged!!!!!!!!!! This is one of the reasons my tract lighting is plug-in. Even though my lighting is no where near max (because I use fluorescent bulbs) if one were to use reg bulbs, the breaker would trip. By being a plug in, no questions are asked. Oh and for your information, the romex can be run exposed in some situations as long as it has a backer board. Electric Codes are LOCAL. In New York City Romex may not be used at all, in any structure. BX is the standard for residential. Much of our wire, up until a recent renovation was wire strung along ceramic holders. Now conduit is our new minimum standard (set by ourselves--Romex is up to code here). BX is used to connect to and from equipment to the nearest junction box. Plastic conduit is legal here, but we only use EMT.
rrebell: I really would not worry as long as all are plug-ins and then I would make sure I knew when the inspection was and have it all unplugged!!!!!!!!!! This is one of the reasons my tract lighting is plug-in. Even though my lighting is no where near max (because I use fluorescent bulbs) if one were to use reg bulbs, the breaker would trip. By being a plug in, no questions are asked. Oh and for your information, the romex can be run exposed in some situations as long as it has a backer board.
I really would not worry as long as all are plug-ins and then I would make sure I knew when the inspection was and have it all unplugged!!!!!!!!!! This is one of the reasons my tract lighting is plug-in. Even though my lighting is no where near max (because I use fluorescent bulbs) if one were to use reg bulbs, the breaker would trip. By being a plug in, no questions are asked. Oh and for your information, the romex can be run exposed in some situations as long as it has a backer board.
Electric Codes are LOCAL.
In New York City Romex may not be used at all, in any structure. BX is the standard for residential.
Much of our wire, up until a recent renovation was wire strung along ceramic holders. Now conduit is our new minimum standard (set by ourselves--Romex is up to code here). BX is used to connect to and from equipment to the nearest junction box. Plastic conduit is legal here, but we only use EMT.
That wiring is called knob and tube, and was common until about 1920.
Many cities have codes that are more strict than the NEC. Like New York, Chicago also requires ALL buildings to be wired with Armored Cable (BX) or EMT conduit. The City of Baltimore requires the that for ALL commercial buildings and residential occupancies beyond two families, even though the NEC allows Romex in small commercial buildings.
This is why I asked the OP to indicate where he was - but we never heard back form him?
rrebell I really would not worry as long as all are plug-ins and then I would make sure I knew when the inspection was and have it all unplugged!!!!!!!!!! This is one of the reasons my tract lighting is plug-in. Even though my lighting is no where near max (because I use fluorescent bulbs) if one were to use reg bulbs, the breaker would trip. By being a plug in, no questions are asked. Oh and for your information, the romex can be run exposed in some situations as long as it has a backer board.
It's getting kind of confusing because of differences of what folks are talking about.
1st step: Construction or renovation permits. To get the permit, a plan has to be submitted to and approved by local authorities. Once approved code enforcement is either done by local code enforcement authority or by licensed craft. Many localities allow/require a licensed electrician to vouch for code compliance of the work. Others have a public inspector check, but anybody can perform the work. Electrical work is typically checked during construction while the walls and boxes are open.
2nd step: Use or occupancy or operating permit - may or may not appy in your case. This is where the facility is deemed safe and systems effective enough for occupancy. Health inspectors and fire marshalls typically perform these inspections just prior to permit issuance - there is little for a code inspector to see at this point. This is where you tend to see more subjective interpretations of codes and regulations.
Short duration events such as train shows may or may not have to have the event permits, and be subjected to the fire marshall inspections. These can be problemmatic because of the lack of time to fix any violations found (and the subjectivity of the code and regulation interpretation).
So I would resolve early on with the building owner what permits are going to be needed or required, and how the layout spaces are going to be affected by the work. Then go meet the appropriate enforcement officials or tradesmen on a pre-emptive basis. It's far better to know up front what is expected than get shut down until you can prove compliance with an expensive fix-it order.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
ctclibby Hi Maybe this is not a concern - I have a restaurant and the fire guy went through last month. We were good on everything BUT the extension cords with bus strips. TV, few computers, two freezers and the deli case were plugged into them. All he required was to use 'surge suppressor' types. I went an bought some of the cheaper ones, cut the ends of the existing extension cords; took the suppressors apart and soldered them to the extension cords, then put them back together. Waiting for him to return and expect that we will be good to go. Same thing happened in Everett, Wa - used surge suppressor type and the fire department gave it the OkieDokie. Bottom line looks to be - nothing plugged directly into extension cords that looked permanent. I decided that soldering the extension cord into a surge suppressor was the easy way to do things. I did use 14/3 cords for the lower power stuff, and 12/3 for the deli case. Funny thing was the icicle lights around the outside of the roof - looked at them and moved on because they are considered temporary. Just remember if it is in a junction box, get a lid on it and tighten it down. Watch what you plug in - 5 freezers on a bus strip probably will cause you issues! ctclibby
Hi
Maybe this is not a concern - I have a restaurant and the fire guy went through last month. We were good on everything BUT the extension cords with bus strips. TV, few computers, two freezers and the deli case were plugged into them. All he required was to use 'surge suppressor' types. I went an bought some of the cheaper ones, cut the ends of the existing extension cords; took the suppressors apart and soldered them to the extension cords, then put them back together. Waiting for him to return and expect that we will be good to go. Same thing happened in Everett, Wa - used surge suppressor type and the fire department gave it the OkieDokie.
Bottom line looks to be - nothing plugged directly into extension cords that looked permanent. I decided that soldering the extension cord into a surge suppressor was the easy way to do things. I did use 14/3 cords for the lower power stuff, and 12/3 for the deli case. Funny thing was the icicle lights around the outside of the roof - looked at them and moved on because they are considered temporary.
Just remember if it is in a junction box, get a lid on it and tighten it down. Watch what you plug in - 5 freezers on a bus strip probably will cause you issues!
ctclibby
That is commercial fire code inforcement, not electrical code. But that too varies from state to state and county to county. And is widely interpretive at the discression of the inspector or his chief.
Under normal circumstances, the National Electrical Code (NEC) applies only to regular house wiring or that for higher voltages; not the low voltages used on a model railroad.
When I built a large club layout I deliberately eliminated 110 Volt AC household current wiring anywhere except a very short run of Romex to the main power supply. Everything else is low voltage (The DCC bus, 12 Volts DC, and 5 Volts DC from a computer power supply for turnouts and lighting). None of the low voltage wiring is subject to NEC compliance.
Also think about your overhead lighting and workbench areas. If you've added track lights and flourescent fixtures on your own, make sure they are up to code. Likewise, if you've got a workshop area, consider any wiring or lighting associated with that.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Todd Hackett
Libby, Montana 59923
I take only pictures then leave footprints on railroad property that I know is not mine, although I treat it as such...
A few thoughts from someone who was an electrician and electrical construction project manager, and who is currently a residential designer.
Codes do vary from area to area, however, as published and adopted by most jurisdictions, the National Electric Code does not apply to your model railroad unless you have hard wired 120 volt power installed on it. Even then it likely only needs to meet UL standards for furniture/appliances, not building wiring. That will be at the discression of the inspector.
Despite our view as modelers, a model railroad is not a part of the building. The low voltage provisions of the NEC are for wiring that is a permanent part of the building.
Like the Lion said, if it unplugs its not under their jurisdiction.
Other issues are building code issues, smoke detectors, etc, are covered by both building and electrical codes, but do not effect the layout directly.
What State/county/city is this in? How extensive and what type of "renovations"?
IF you do have 120 VAC wiring perminately installed on the layout, the inspector may inspect it, he may want it to be easily disconnectable - like with a plug or plugs, or a master disconnect switch.
While there are lots of published safety guidlines for the use of extension cords and power strips, these are not part of the NEC, nor are they "law" of any kind. Not enforcable by your electrical inspector. The NEC simply requires that extension cords be 16AWG or larger.
Again, the code addresses the BUILDING and its fixed permanent wiring. If you have UL listed manufactured power supplies, like typical DC or DCC products offered in this hobby, Plugged into normal outlets, your low voltage layout wiring will be of no concern to an electrical inspector.
You really need to get some feedback from the electrician and /or the general contractot that's doing the renovation. They will be interested in anything that will hold up their tickets (inspections). If they are not concerned, your layout may be OK as is. Depends on the scope of the work listed on the permit. Make any improvements that are suggested. If the layout will come under the inspection, call the inspector for a consultation. Most localities provide that option. I use it a lot to make sure my jobs will pass the first time. Everybody is on the same page that way.
Once the work is complete and cleared, the building will probably still be subject to routine Fire Marshall inspections. They can shut things down for things the electric inspector doesn't even look at. Temporary wiring is always a concern. Extension cords can't be daisy chained. Relocatable Power Taps (RPT's) aka power strips can only be plugged into house outlets. According to codes, it is illegal to plug an extension cord into the wall then plug an RPT into its end. It is legal to plug a six outlet RPT into a wall socket, then run six extension cords from it. Extension cords are considered an extension of the appliance cord and one of suitable size per appliance is allowed. RPT's are considered an extension of the house outlet.
Extra low voltage ( below 40 volts) is pretty much left alone unless its appearance screams "inspect me". Tie up the loose stuff and make it neat. No loose wires that would cause tripping hazards. Most fire marshals will not bother to look any further.
Martin Myers
I don't think you would have to worry about the low voltage portion of the layout. But there are other considerations. Ample fire extinguishers, smoke and CO detectors, First aid kits, lighted exit signs should be installed. Think of having a safety switch so when leaving the club, One switch would shut off all the 120 volt power to the layout. One thing about 120 volt wiring around the layout. Most places Romex cable is not supposed to be exposed and is meant to be concealed in walls. BX cable (armored) or EMT (thinwall conduit) should be used to run wiring around the layout so it cannot be damaged by tools. Using groundfault circuit breakers to protect the wiring would be good idea also.
LION suspects that if you can unplug your layout from the wall, then it is outside of the building codes.If your transformers are hardwired into the building, then it might fall under the code.
LION thinks that it is the plug that makes the difference. LION could be wrong, it has happened before.
KB0QQW The building that we have our model railroad layout in is being renovated and as such, there is a potential that we will have to examine the compliance aspects of our electrical wiring not only for the 120v AC power across the layout but also the lower voltage stuff (14v DC to the tracks for the DCC command/control system & the 6v DC for the scenery lighting).
The building that we have our model railroad layout in is being renovated and as such, there is a potential that we will have to examine the compliance aspects of our electrical wiring not only for the 120v AC power across the layout but also the lower voltage stuff (14v DC to the tracks for the DCC command/control system & the 6v DC for the scenery lighting).
If I were in your shoes:
Depending on what you find out, and the current state of wiring on the layout, you can assess what needs to be done, and at what price. If there are cords and wires everywhere on the floor, expect issues. If the house voltage wiring is nicely run with enclosed connections, the person with the final say is more likely to approve without many modifications. Low voltage is not likely to be an issue unless a check of the 120VAC shows problems.
Electrical codes vary from state to state and sometimes even from town to town. I would contact the local building inspector and explain the situation to him. Ask him to come down and look at the situation. As a public employee, I would think that he should do this for nothing, assuming that the renovation being done has all the proper permits. If he starts talking fees, tell him that you are a non-profit tenant in the building, which might help.
Hello All,
I didn't see anything when I did a search of the archives that related to the potental issue our orgnization is facing...
Based on my preliminary understanding of the electrical codes for the state, I don't think we need to worry about the low voltage wiring except to use "best practices" when installing those wires but I am no expert and wanted to throw this question out there...
Has anyone else been in a similar situation & provide us advice on this topic?
Thanks,
Chris