Years ago I had an HO layout run by the old Command 2000 by MRC. I know that system is outdated by todays standards, but is it still usable?
My situation is this. I have a 4'x24' island layout in N-scale. It is presently block wired DC for 2 cabs. Both cabs at the moment are fixed power packs. I want walk around control for this layout. The MRC control master 20 or the Crest train engineers are perfect but the cost is high. I found the Command 2000 with walk around for less than 20.00 new. As I only have about 6 locos at the time that I would even put a decoder in, re-doing my locos isn't a big deal. I am not looking for all the advanced stuff like sound and turnout control and all that. First question is would todays locos already with decoders work on the Command system or do they have to have the decoders that were produced when that system was put out? Second question would be, would I be better shelling out 40.00 more and getting the early version of the Prodigy system. This one has handheld as well. Lastly, was the Command system a stand alone 1 operator system or did it alow multiple handhelds? If 2 people can't operate seperate from each other, than it is useless. Same question for the prodigy. I just can't see shelling out hundreds for a DCC system that offers way more than I want.
Jeff
You don't have to "shell out hundreds" to get a very good DCC starter system that has walk around capability - albeit tethered. The NCE Power Cab ($160, discounted) or the MRC Prodigy should do the trick.
I'm not as familiar with the Prodigy systems but you can add an additional throttle (e.g. a CAB-06p) to the Power Cab for ~$75. And, should you ever decide that you like sound, the capability is already there.
I still find DCC way more fun to operate than DC.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I use to have the 2000 with the hand held two throttle remote. Two operators could use the system. One on the main box that had three throttles and the other on the remote.
I would sometimes call up a DC only loco as a pusher using the ch 1, zero bit option. I would keep the DC only loco on a siding and switch off the track power because of the loco motor buzz.
The 2000 should be ok if if all you want to do is run trans and not worry about changing CV's.
I have run locos with sound decoders, No control over sounds but the basic chuff was there. Even a diesel would have the prime mover sound.
I switched over to the NCE Power Cab as I wanted sound and I wanted to fine tune the chuff's and control the sounds.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
To add to my original post, my only requirements would be 2-3 operators all having handhelds either tethered or wireless. If tethered, it must have memory so that the walk around can move around the layout. There is a scenic divider running the entire 24' length so you can't even see the other side. Trains would consist of 2 unit trains of about 25 cars with 2 locos and 1 switching loco moving no more than 10 cars at a time. So 5 locos max at any one time.
What system gives me that?
I think I have talk to you before Tom. What area do you consider NE Ohio? Is there any groups or layouts that you know of that run DCC systems that I can look at? I will be buying something in the next few weeks and need to make sure its right.
The Command 2000 and the early versions of the Prodigy are woefulyl outdated. And completely dead end. This was a huge mistake that took MRC several variations to finally correct, each system was not compatible witht he previous one. It's one thing to toss the $30 power pack when upgrading to the more advanced $80 one, but to throw out hundresds invested in DCC to switch to a system with more features - forget it. The current Prodigy line is upgradable so you cna start witht he basic system and add features as needed, like most other DCC makers were fromt he beginning. You would be better off buying a current modern system, and it won't cost 'hundreds' .
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The Power Cab can handle 2 tethered throttles (the main cab plus one other) but if you want more you will have to add the Smartbooster option, so take that into consideration when pricing things out. All DCC tethered systems have memory so plugging in and moving is fine. Again, you are going to need the Smartbooster option for the Power Cab if you want to be able to walk around and move from panel to panel as the entire layout will shut down if you unplug the main Power Cab throttle, unless you have the Smartbooster running things.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Jeff,
Given the added criterion, the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra might be a better choice for you. The base unit is stationary but you can add up to 10 walk-around throttles to it.
The Power Cab is a walk-around throttle but must stay connected to the PCP panel. Since the Power Cab is a command station, booster, and throttle all rolled-up-into-one, if you unplug it you shut down the entire layout - i.e. unless you add the Smart Booster (SB3a)
The SB3a ($128, discounted) is a command station/booster so the Power Cab can then be plugged and unplugged from the UTP panels. The Power Cab also has a limitation of one additional cab address - i.e. two max (including Power Cab). The SB3a increases that to a total of 4.
budinoh To add to my original post, my only requirements would be 2-3 operators all having handhelds either tethered or wireless. If tethered, it must have memory so that the walk around can move around the layout. There is a scenic divider running the entire 24' length so you can't even see the other side. Trains would consist of 2 unit trains of about 25 cars with 2 locos and 1 switching loco moving no more than 10 cars at a time. So 5 locos max at any one time. What system gives me that?
You should have put this in the original post. Basic is not what you want with the above requirements, especially wireless.
I would at least get the NCE Power Cab with the 5 amp Smart booster. I say that only because I have the Power Cab and our club has the Power Pro 5 amp system.
We did not want to pay extra for the wireless which does NOT come under Basic DCC.
I doubt you can have your cake and eat it to.
Run Cat 5 wire around the layout and hook up connection points. We did that.
Others have suggestions.
tstage Jeff, Given the added criterion, the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra might be a better choice for you. The base unit is stationary but you can add up to 10 19 walk-around throttles to it.
Given the added criterion, the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra might be a better choice for you. The base unit is stationary but you can add up to 10 19 walk-around throttles to it.
Fixed it for ya, Tom.
The Zephyr Extra can handle 20** locos at a time, 1 with the built-in stationary throttle, and another 19 via additional throttles.
**The original Zephyr was advertised as being able to handle 10 locos, but it could handle 12 because the two jump throttles "didn't count". Not sure about the current Zephyr Extra, if the same is true it may actually be able to control 22 locos.
Thanks, Steve.
I guess when I said basic I was meaning the 2000. I know the 2000 came with a walk around but I wasn't sure if you could run 2 walk arounds on that system. I would refer to Bachmans EZ command as basic. Guess the overall question should be can I buy the Command 2000 w/handheld for 20.00 and an extra handheld for 10.00? Can I get the basics that I want and then spend the money on decoders and decodered locos? My track plan and layout limits me to 2-3 operators and 2 mainline trains and a yard switcher at any one time. So being able to program 9999 locos and running 20 trains at once will be impractical.
The simple answer is yes. Go ahead and spend $30 on an obsolete unsupported DCC system. Its your money and if you are on a tight budget and willing to roll the dice on something that has been off the market for years then go for it.
I agree with Simon that if you want to significantly limit yourself then go ahead and spend (waste?) the money on a Command 2000. I had one when they first came out and soon found how limiting they were. If you are going to invest in modern decoders why wouldn't you want to be able to access the features they have. I'm not talking about a lot of bells and whistles but the basic CVs that make DCC a pleasure. With a Command 2000 all you can do is attempt a starting voltage and a top speed. By the way, I took mine apart and it looked like it had been wired as a middle school project. Twenty buck electronics is twenty buck electronics.
Joe
I too wonder if the Zephyr extra has the extra 2 'secret' slots like the original - it DOES still have the jump ports.
As for Command 2000, it also can't really literally acces the bells and whistles. The #30 wasted on that would add decoders to 2 locos.
Just because a given system can do MORE than you want doesn't necessarily make it more expensive. It's the realities of the electronics that go inside. A chip that can manage 5 locos and a chip that can manage 100 are generally only a couple of cents difference in price to the manufacturer, so it no longer makes sense to build systems that max out at 3 locos. The Command 2000 is available on places like eBay for $20 because no one wants it. You could see if anyone is selling the older original Digitrax Zephyr, but most of those have long cleared out because people know that it isn't a dead end system. The Command 2000, you use it, and as soon as you want more, it's trash, there's no way to add features to it. My 10x15 bedroom layout is run with the original Zephyr, because I don't see more than 3 trains ever running on it. So a 10 loco capacity is plenty. I didn't upgrade to the Zephyr Xtra because I really have no need to, but I HAVE added on to my system. With a DT402 throttle I can access a full 29 functions, which the Zephyr alone couldn;t do - that's the upgradability of Digitrax, you can plug newer components with more features into the older systems and gain those new features. This is what I mentioned it too MRC a long time to figure out. All their DCC systems prior to the Prodigy Express/Prodigy Advance/Prodigy Advance2 were dead ends. WHen a new feature was added, they came out with a new system, completely incompatible with the old. They FINALLY learned, a Prodigy Express can be made a Prodigy Advanced2 system by buying the PA2 throttle and plugging it in. I'm still not a fan for several technical reasons, but at least it's not a dead end anymore.
When some here say obsolete, compare the MRC 2000 to what could be called the obsolete DC layouts. You will be at the DC layout stage. If that is ok with the many layouts being run by DC, then it should work for you if you never think of wanting to go beyond that, That should spark some conversation.
But the main reason peopel with small layotus want to go beyond DC is they aquire a shiny new sound loco and want to actually use it. An outdated old DCC system that can't do much for than turn the lights on and off is actually WORSE than DC. Sure there are gadets to go between the DC supply and the track to access the sounds, but they are manufacturer specific, and the Tech 6, well, for that price you might as well get a regular DCC system and get ALL the features.
I also disgree witht he notion that the smalelr the layout, the less need for DCC. On the contrary, I think a small layout is a greater candidate for DCC than a medium size one, because but for all but the simplest layouts (the first couple in the Atlas books, oval with one siding, for example), there actually is opportunity for 2 trains to be in use by 2 operators. However wiring them for DC leads to arbitrary zones of operation for each loco, whereas with DCC each one can roam anywhere, and yes, even crash if you don't pay attention.
If you look carefully, we are saying, do some more research into what you really want to do and what is available. Right now, not really sure what you want and that might change when you get started. That happens to many when building a layout, whether DC or DCC.
There are a lot of variables when it comes to DCC.
Here's links to the Command 2000 manual.
I had forgotten how limited that unit was.
pages 1-3
pages 4-6
pages 7 - 8
walkaround throttle
Here is my main desire. I don't have a fixed panel. I have them around the layout. I built this so I could follow my train around and switch and for the enjoyment of just watching one run. On occasion, my wife or son may run a train with me from time to time. I want 2 walk around controls so no one is stuck sitting. I am told the Prodigy is capable of that. But I am also told that I need this and that as well to make the 2 throttle setup. NCE, I am told, cannot be disconnected unless you have this other $150 items to keep it running. The 2000 allows the handheld to move from panel to panel just like the control master 20 does. I was given directions on how to change the 2000 walk arounds so that 2 can be run without interfering. I guess I'm just not into all the bells and whistles that everyone else is. If that makes me a bad person or an undesirable member of the model railroading world then so be it. I am just exploring a low price way to get into DCC before I spend 200.00 for 2 control master 20 dc units. Doesn't look as though I am gonna get what I want, which appears basic, for that price in DCC. I model in N scale and am 30% deaf. I can barely hear the sound in the locos of the n-trak club so as much as many of you think its great its useless to me.
Do you belong to a club? What system tdo they use there? Most N-Trak clubs are Digitrax. It would behoove you to get something similar so you can take your throttle to the club. ANd have a local source of help if you run into any problems.
I was under the impression from your initial post that your layotu is small. The cord ont he PowerCab is 15 feet long. SO unless your layout is more than 30 feet long, you can reach each end fromt he middle without having to unplug anything. I've avoided the expense of goign to a radio system because my room is only 10 feet wide, subract out the 3 feet of benchwork width, and the cord on my Digitrax throttle can reach either side without having to unplug it (which it can) or use radio to have no cords.
Randy,
My layout is 4'x24' long island with a 18' tall scenice divider down the middle. This kinda makes it 2' wide on each side. Working the "front" side would be fine, its the back where I would need to have the movable control. I'm told my mistake was I didn't plan this layout with DCC in mind. This layout won't get any bigger and will probably be the last one I build, so I don't see many "upgrades" in the future. As long as I can buy a decoder equiped loco and run it both at home and at another place that has DCC, I would be happy. I started looking tonight at the Bachman system and their walk around setup. The other is just too expensive to even start unless I just want to be a solo modeler for a while.
There is an N-trak club about 60 miles away that has DCC on the inside track. I visit about once every couple months. They are using an old version of the prodigy.
I retired 6 years ago, I'm 68 years old, and planned to build an HO layout upon retiring, I did in my first 4 years. Before I retired I bought the Bachmann EZ Command, spent a lot of time on this forum and others including Ask The Bachmann. I did take a 2 year time off, I worked so much with this hobby, I kinda burned out, and now I'm back. The reason I burned out was too many projects going all at once, and once I bought another goodie, the Digitrax PR 3 with JMRI, I was installing decoders and especially got a big kick out of sound and converting some of my old favorite DC loco's, doing scenery, keeping the trains running, painting buildings and putting them together, working on my subway, but not seeing anything getting accomplished. Well I'm back and still using my EZ Command. A few years ago I bought the Bachmann 5 amp booster being I was adding sound and bought several new loco's with sound. The EZ stand alone is only 1 amp, I have lots of track on my layout along with the subway, it's 17' long and U shape, 10' wide and the wings are 7' wide. I got over 40 switch's on it and I installed tortoise machines on most of them except for the peco's, they have the peco mchines under them. I've installed tasaumni sound in the loco's that I converted. The loco's without sound are all hard wired with digitrax decoders. I want to upgrade now and looking at the Dynamis since I have had no trouble with Bachmann products including the auto reverse modular I installed on 2 of my reverse loops under the table for the subway. The subway has 2 main lines running under the entire layout and you can walk around the entire layout. I am considering or would like to upgrade to Digitrax, but on my fixed income I really can't afford to layout $600.00 for the complete system for my needs. The Dyamis I can get for a little over $115.00, it's wireless infrared, and I don't hear too many complaints about it except a few from the UK when I google a search. Bachmann has had a "bad toy" name over the years, and rightfully so. But the last few years I find affordable loco's DCC installed by buying Bachmann. And where else can you get a HO diesel DCC with sound by Soundtraxx for under a $100. Even the folks on here have come around to Bachmann Steam Loco's especially the Spectrum models, they are really nice for the money. I have purchased BLI, Broadway Limited, and Atlas with sound and they cost between $200-$400 and I have several. My savings I have I need to hold on to, LOL I can't spend it all. The EZ command I can enter 9 trains on it and run them all the same time 1-9, LOL I wouldn't recommend it, the max I run is 6, but usually 3, that's enough for me to take care of. I also run the 3 or 4 trains in consist of 2 loco's for each train. Steam I run by itself. The function button allows some, but not all the sounds available on sound decoders. The default sounds with startup are all the normal startup sounds, you can hear the engine warm up, cooling fans kick in, doppler, air let off all by itself without touching anything, and lets not forget the brakes when you stop, and also the clang of the couplers on some sound decoders. The bell is on #1, horn/whistle is #2 the lights on/off #10, #9 dims/brighten lights on some decoders, #8 sound off/on. You cannot program anything with EZ command as far as cv's go, that's why I bought the PR3 so I can on a seperate track with the interface/jmri and computer. You (I) still can't do anything with the Bachmann run/lights only simple decoders, you can't adjust any cv's, that's how cheap they are. Hey it's OK some people don't want to mess with cv's, I didn't either, I just wanted to plop it on the tracks and go and have fun with no hassles, heck I can't stand loco's and train cars where I have to put the little tiny detail pieces on with these 2 old potato spuds I got for hands, LOL. But I got the "bug" and wanted to venture into programming my loco's. The Dynamis you can do can do anything that the other big ticket DCC system's do, plus now you have 40 loco entries 2 or 4 digit address capable, and 20, not 9, function buttons depending on the decoder. and Hey for a little over $115.00 and it's 3 amp. Bachmann stands by their warranty and exactly like Digitrax, both great companies for repairing or replacing as I'm sure are other manufacturers of DCC. Sorry it's so long a post, just wanted to let you know my experience's, and really glad I'm back to modeling, the rest did me good. LOL, still thinking about digitrax, maybe when I grow up I'll know what I want or should have done!
budinoh I just can't see shelling out hundreds for a DCC system that offers way more than I want.
I just can't see shelling out hundreds for a DCC system that offers way more than I want.
Then don't.
On the other hand, for $1,200, you can purchase an NCE PH-Pro 5 amp system, wireless, and three wireless throttles, one each for you, your wife, and your son.
Yeah, I know, $1,200 is a lot of dough. But, it is less than a single vacation trip, less than most large screen flat TV's, and far less than many people spend on their other hobbies.
You do that and you will never look back.
Alton Junction
Bachmann does not make the Dynamis, it is designed for them by ESU, just as they did not design the EZ Command, that was done by Lenz.
As you have noted, the street prices for the entry level Dynamis are heavily discounted from the $350 list, in fact less than half price is about the norm. (Curious really, none of the other DCC systems are discounted nearly as much?) However this is a really false savings if you ever want to expand the system and add a second throttle. Then, not only do you have to purchase the throttle, but you have to add the Dynamis Probox, so that costs you $300 odd without the extra throttle! In fact you are going to spend $400 odd to add a second throttle! So the entry level system has some significant shortcomings when compared to "the big boys" and when you add the extras to bring it up to the same performance level it is not less expensive, and may actually cost you more. Perhaps you have seen this review? http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164122
Look, I have no doubt that the Dynamis is well made, but make sure you understand the shortcomings and costs before going down that route.
simon1966 Bachmann does not make the Dynamis, it is designed for them by ESU, just as they did not design the EZ Command, that was done by Lenz. As you have noted, the street prices for the entry level Dynamis are heavily discounted from the $350 list, in fact less than half price is about the norm. (Curious really, none of the other DCC systems are discounted nearly as much?) However this is a really false savings if you ever want to expand the system and add a second throttle. Then, not only do you have to purchase the throttle, but you have to add the Dynamis Probox, so that costs you $300 odd without the extra throttle! In fact you are going to spend $400 odd to add a second throttle! So the entry level system has some significant shortcomings when compared to "the big boys" and when you add the extras to bring it up to the same performance level it is not less expensive, and may actually cost you more. Perhaps you have seen this review? http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164122 Look, I have no doubt that the Dynamis is well made, but make sure you understand the shortcomings and costs before going down that route.
Hey here's the price list from My Favorite Spot for the complete Bachmann Dynamis and expanding it so 1 other can participate and run his own throttle all in one shot.
Dynamis wireless stand alone 3 amp- $117.00
Dynamis Pro Box- $215.00
Extra Dyamis Throttle (handset) -$72.00
1 extra wireless infrared receiver if needed- $22.00
$424.00 complete for all the listed items. Before I retired, I went to my local hobby shop and was introduced to DCC, never heard of it at the time. It knocked me off my feet needless to say. But the price of it closed my mind to it and the loco's alone were out of my league money wise, that was 7 years ago. LOL they were talking $200.00 plus for an Atlas Loco with sound, back in the 70's, $20.00 bought a real good Atlas analog. They were talking $1,000.00 just to get started, no way could I do that. But along the way I found Bachmann EZ Command, frowned upon by many and still is by many, so for less than $100.00 I had my first DCC experience, with all I needed including a diesel loco DCC installed, and in 10 minutes set up time I was up and running. At this time, right now 7 years later, I have grown to 35 DCC equipped loco's, some with sound, some I converted but still using EZ Command. All I wanted to do was run trains at first, like I said in my post and like most of us starting out I didn't know a CV from DC or DCC. Only after reading on this and other forums did I even begin to understand the "lingo" you guys were talking about. Then I got the bug. Like all hobby's, if I were to plop down the thousands all at once, there would be no way I would have returned to this hobby, it's a little at a time and what you can afford at the time and learning as you go. I think most folks understand that concept of a hobby.
So if a biginner can afford to lay out well over a thousand dollars for a complete "big box, top of the line", DCC system, go for it. I'm very happy with what I've done and with Bachmann DCC products. They do stand by their warranty and in speedy time if you have a problem with it, that's all I'm saying, do what you can afford to do, a little at a time and keep hobbying and growing. Have fun, that's the important issue, when it becomes labor, take a break. I do like what I read about with the Bachmann Dynamis and what I see on youtube and other sites.
Or you can spend $30 bucks and build a Lenz compatible DCC System. You heard me, the parts required to build this is minimal....
http://usuaris.tinet.cat/fmco/home_en.htm
NanoX is a simple DCC command station, without pretensions, that includes XpressNet bus v.3 and can control: - 16 locomotives simultaneously in the addresses 1 to 9999 - 1024 turnouts and signals - 31 XpressNet throttles or devices (Lokmaus, XWL, SimpleMaus, XbusTCO,...) - Programming and reading DCC decoders in Direct, Paged, Register and PoM modes. - With a 1,2A Booster including protection against short circuits - Supports 14, 28 and 128 speed steps, functions FL and F1 to F12 for every locomotive
There are also designs for boosters, throttles (even wireless ones) and decoders. All lenz/roco compatible, with similar specs to the old zephyr.
Rangerover, I have no idea how your LHS came up with $1000 to get started. other than quoting top-of -the-line. I am a die-hard Digitrax user and have been for ages. Started with a 2.5A $179.00 DCC system called the Zephyr. I added an engineers throttle called the UT4 for about $50.00 Over the years it has been added to and now is the central command station to a much more complex setup. There are several systems like this on the market that can be built upon and do not require an up-front $1K investment.
Look, I have no issue with the Dynamis, it looks good on paper. But it is not the only way to achieve what you are setting out to do, on a budget.
Zephyr Extra $179.99
UR90 Infra Red Panel $37.00
UT4 IR and cable connected throttle $64.00
So $350 gets you a 3 amp IR controlled system with 2 walk around throttles and a console throttle.
Plus you can upgrade to radio if you want, add boosters etc? Also, since you have a PR3 already it can be integrated into the Loconet and then you can have PC control of the layout with a JMRI throttle.
Anyway, you seem pretty sold on the Dynamis, and if it is what your LHS promotes and supports there is good reason to go with it, but the notion that it is in someway the only system that lets you grow on a budget is false.
Rangerover,
While I have no problems with someone spending $50 (or less) on a basic E-Z Command to get into DCC, I would not encourage anyone on buying the Bachmann's Dynamis DCC system. Individual components are way overpriced and the upgrade path seems full of thorns.
I would rather see you go either the Digitrax or NCE route. Both make very good and reliable systems and are well supported by third-party components.
I couldn't agree more. The base features for a 'starter' system seem fairly impressive with the Dynamis, but the expansion is quite limited compared to NCE and Digitrax 'starter' sets. ANd very costly. I also believe there is an artificial limit designed into the system compared to the ESU system it's based on, the ESU version can be expanded into a full high-end EcOS system whereas that doesn't seem possible for Dynamis. Both NCE and Digitrax's "low end" systems can be expanded to their top end without throwing out any of the pieces you buy getting the initial starter system. NCE's supports a second throttle with the base system, Digitrax's can support 20 throttles, out of the box.
The "video game controller" approach seems to be very popular in Europe, selecting locos via pictures froma database - but the real reason behind that is many locos either don;t have numbers, they have names, or the numbers on them do not fit in the range allowed by DCC addressing, so the North AMerican practice of using the cab number as the address just won't work. There may be some benefit to such a system if you model European prototype, but if you model North American, I don;t see how scrolling through a bunch of pictures to pick your loco is easier than just keying in the number on the side.