Hi everyone,
I have the following layout and once I installed the bachmann turnouts, my MRC DCC system shuts down (overload) with one DCC train on the tracks. If I remove the turnouts and have a single loop with no turnouts the train runs great. I eventually would like to have 3 loops with 3 turnouts and one crossover with DCC for all of the locomotives. What am I doing wrong?
By the way, all I have for wiring is one straight section with the power leads, otherwise that's it for the entire layout. I'm using Bachmann E-Z track N scale for the whole setup if it helps.
Thanks,
George
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http://i42.tinypic.com/2afeejk.jpg
Make sure the crossover at the bottom are not causing a short. Is the inner loop wired the same as the outer loop, or opposite it.
Try using color to show which rail is A and which is B.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
You probably have the wires to one of the loops reversed, which is causing the crossover to create a short circuit.
Disconnect one or the other of the two loops and see if the short goes away. If it does, just reverse the wires that connect that loop to your DCC system.
If you only have one set of feeders for the entire layout, you will need to add more, but that's not your problem.
I'm assuming the power wires go to the outer loop, and when you connect the inner loop, the system stops working. If that's the case, you have a short in the inner loop somewhere. It could be as simple as a tool left on the track. Or, if you used a Tomar bumper on that siding, it's a dead short and needs to be isolated.
If it's not something obvious like that, you may have to disconnect parts of the layout until you find the problem. This "divide and conquer" technique is a useful one when trying to isolate electrical problems.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
It has to be the crossover.
The wiring is such that the connection of the two loops via the crossover is producing a dead short.
Rich
Alton Junction
It seems that you need a reversing unit installed on a section of track between the switches as you have created a reversing loop with the center circle of track.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
There is no reverse loop on that layout. You cna only go from the outer to inner loop when moving clockwise, and when the train comes back around on the inner loop it is still moving clockwise. It cannot change direction with just the tracks shown.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Ops, Randy you are correct, about not having a reverse loop. I meant that the transition between the two switches may need a reverser. If not then please ignore my thought on this.
I still am interested in what the solution to the problem is.
I belive you need to run feeder wires to both the inside and the outside Loop.
Good luck Sir
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My money is on the phase being reversed on the inner loop. Check the wiring.
I also agree with Mr. B about checking that you have not installed a metal bumper across the track on that siding.
I'm on the side of the phase being off. However, if the Bachmann turnouts are power routing (dunno if they are) you WILL need insulated joiners where the diverging routes connect in the crossover OR make very sure they are always both lined togetherm both straight or both for the crossover, otherwise it will instantly short there even if the inner and outer loops have the feeders connected properly.
Does anyone even still make a metla bumper that requires an insulated joiner or gap to prevent a short? I have an ancient Ideal Moels one that lights up and is like that, all the newers ones I have (Atlas and the Walthers kits) are all plastic. The only end of track thing I have that needs gaps are the pair of Kadee coupler guages I have on my test/programming track. I picked up one of the new plastic ones and I don't like it, I prefer the old metal ones. Plus if you leave one on the main layout your train will stop because of the short. Leave a palstic one on the rails by accident and CRASH.
rrinker Does anyone even still make a metla bumper that requires an insulated joiner or gap to prevent a short? --Randy
Does anyone even still make a metla bumper that requires an insulated joiner or gap to prevent a short?
Yea, Tomar still makes them.
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rrinker Does anyone even still make a metla bumper that requires an insulated joiner or gap to prevent a short? I have an ancient Ideal Moels one that lights up and is like that, all the newers ones I have (Atlas and the Walthers kits) are all plastic.
Does anyone even still make a metla bumper that requires an insulated joiner or gap to prevent a short? I have an ancient Ideal Moels one that lights up and is like that, all the newers ones I have (Atlas and the Walthers kits) are all plastic.
Randy,
The Tomar Industries bumping post needs to gapped or have insulated rail joiners.
Phoebe Vet My money is on the phase being reversed on the inner loop. Check the wiring.
The OP stated that "By the way, all I have for wiring is one straight section with the power leads, otherwise that's it for the entire layout. " If this is true, it is pretty hard to get a phase reversal between the two loops.
If the two loops work okay indepently of each other, this would also seem to eliminate the track bumper. The only thing left is the crossover. Looks like there might need to be insulators installed between the diverging rails on each turnout of the crossover.
Sure sounds like the crossover is the problem.
Thanks for all of the replies. As you can probably tell, I'm new to DCC and it's been a long time since I've setup a layout. With that said, I pulled out my continuity tester and went to town. It turns out that one switch out of three was shorting out between the two rails. Unfortunately, that didn't solve my problem, but I found the issue (I think!).
I have three turnouts, but one is different. The oddball appears to have a plastic frog which makes it electrically gapped. The other two have metal frogs and the frog is powered. Here's a picture of the electrically gapped turnout from Bachmann:
Here's a picture of the powered frog version although they have the respective same item number:
I decided to operate with only one loop and experiment with each turnout ending in a 10" straight with a hayes bumper (which is not shorted). Here's my conclusion:
1. If I use the version of the turnout with the powered frog, the DCC runs fine until I switch the turnout. When I switch, my controller indicates a short and my Prodigy Express shuts down until I reset. When I leave the switch in the straight position, the curved portion of the track is only half powered, which explains why the the inside loop wasn't powered unless I switched to the turnout. Is there a way to to unpower the frog to match the electrically gapped version? See #2 below.
2. If I use the electrically gapped version with the plastic/unpowered frog, everything works perfectly. I can switch all day long and my prodigy express doesn't shut down and both the main and turnout tracks are always powered. I was able to enter the siding, then switch the track to the mainline and it still worked great with all tracks powered and one train on the main and another on the siding. Finally, success! Now how do I make the powered frog version act like the unpowered frog version?
As a side note, based on many replies it sounds like I should have a power feed line to both the inner and outer loops. Is it as easy as installing insulators between the outer and inner loops and feeding it from the power supply? How would the trains respond as they go from one loop to another? Lose sound and DCC? How about if I add three total loops? What are the potential issues?
Thanks for the help everyone,
Yep, looks like you found your problem, George. If you don't gap your live frogs then you'll get a short.
If you have a Dremel tool with a cut off disc or a Jeweler's saw, you can cut gaps behind the frog. (You can also install those clear insulating rail joiners but I think their ugly so I don't use them.) You'll then need to solder wires to the frog and wire it to a polarity-switching ground throw (e.g. Caboose Hobbies 220S) to make the proper flip in polarity.
Here's a handy diagram from the Fast Tracks web site on how to do that:
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/kb_results.asp?ID=61
If you click the diagram it will show you graphically what happens when you throw the ground throw.
Hope that helps...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
dornier As a side note, based on many replies it sounds like I should have a power feed line to both the inner and outer loops. Is it as easy as installing insulators between the outer and inner loops and feeding it from the power supply?
As a side note, based on many replies it sounds like I should have a power feed line to both the inner and outer loops. Is it as easy as installing insulators between the outer and inner loops and feeding it from the power supply?
I would recommend a feeder about every 3 to 6 feet depending on how long the sections of track are and I put one at all track on a turn out. Turnouts tend be the most common issue with losing power and having all the track with power will fix that problem
The frogs ARE gapped even on the powered frog version of the turnouts - you can see the small bits of plastic where the two rails come together at teh frog.
However - do one more test with your meter, with the turnout removed fromt eh layout. Check continuity between the rail just beyond the frog on the diverging side and the rails before the points. I suspect that the continuity will be between that rail and the outside rail when the points are lines to the diverging route, and for the inside rail when the points are lines straight hrough - in other words, the turnout is routing power to the selected route out of the turnout. In this case, insulated joiners in the middle of the crossover should solve your problem.
Randy:
If there is anyone in here whose expertise in DCC I respect it is you, but I don't understand your last post. If the OP only has one electrical connection and there is no power to the inner loop except through the switches then how does a power routing switch cause a short?
If only one is thrown, it will connect both rails of the diverging route essentially together, shorting the whole works. Standard old bugaboo with power routing turnouts, you must only feed power from the point side. This is solved for a closed loop by putting insulate joiners on all 4 rails of the frog side - no chance for a short. For a single ended siding this is never really an issue, and you cna take advantage of the way the power routing works to completely cut power ont he siding when the turnout is lined for the main. All power of course then relies on the turnotu contacts, but on a short siding where no more than 1 loco will run it's usually not a big deal, unless you slop too much paint on the turnout.
It can be quite instructive reading these old 1930's MRs (I got the DVD set), when you had the 3-railers (usually outside third rail for 'scale' models) vs the 2-railers, and the complaints were usually that 2 rail was impossible to wire, especially with return loops, and also impossible to signal. I think the bigger problem was fitting reliable insualtion to the wheels and/or axles witht he limited adhesives of the day, plus it was all DIY work. The only plastic type material they really had was bakelite, some firms made bakelite wheels for rolling stock, but I can;t imagine it was all that durable. Anyway, there was much discussion on using the turnout to route power, and also many recommendations already at that time to link a switch to the mechanical mechanism to reliable switch the power. Sort of forgotten knowledge, as most turnouts these days are NOT power routing and the subject isn;t oftened mentioned in beginner wiring books on the assumption that continuous power turnouts like Atlas are being used. It used to be the Snap-Track turnouts were NOT power routing and Custom-Line was, but even Custom-Line turnouts are no longer power routing - hence I have powered feeds on all 3 sides of all my turnouts.
Hmm, how better to describe it - basically the two rails that meet at the far end of the frog get powered via the points, so if the turnout is set for straight, the continuous rail is one polarity, and the points are against the inside curved rail ro direct the train stright through. This gives the frog rails the polarity of the curved continuous rail. On the straight route that's line - this is perfect, each rail has a different polarity. On the non-lined diverging route though, the curved continuous rail and the frog rail both have the same polarity. In a crossover situation, if the other turnout is lines for the diverging route, the two diverging rails have opposite polarity. But they tie into the other turnout where the two diverging rails are the same polarity - short. Unless insulated joiners are installed between the turnouts. Then the only short would be if a train attempted to cross the gap - which is sort of OK because if there's a short is also means the turnouts aren't both lined and the train woudl derail anyway. But with the track empty, there's be no chance of a short.
That makes sense. I have exactly that configuration is a couple of places but they are dead frog Atlas that are thrown by a single source so they throw simultaneously. Now I understand why I don't have that problem.
And like I said, the Atlas ones are continuous power, there are jumpers under them so that the left rail is always the left rail, at the points and past the frog, and the right rail is always the right rail, same thing. The only way an arrangment liek that would ever short on Atlas turnouts is if the feeders to the inner loop were connected opposite the feeders to the outside loop - and it would be an instnat short as soon as power was turned on. The old trick of coloring one rail red and the other blue or something can help even when there isn;t a reverse loop, you cna readily see where it would be POSSIBLE for a short and have some idea of what conditions might cause the red and blue lines to ever touch each other.
Hi Randy,
As you stated, the turnout was routing power to the selected route. Luckily, my LHS had a newer turnout to replace the non-DCC friendly older turnout. He didn't have a third one, so I'll be hunting around for a newer version soon. By the way, now that all of my turnouts and crossover are DCC friendly, everything is working great. I now have 3 loops with 2 turnouts and 1 crossover.
I only have one power feed to all of the loops, but plan on adding additional feeds to the 2 inner loops. When switching any of the turnouts, my Prodigy Express continues working with no shutdowns at all. When any of the trains switch between inner and outer loops, also no problems at all.
For those of you that are new to DCC like me, make sure all of your turnouts and/or crossovers are DCC friendly before purchasing. By the way, the newer version of the Bachmann N scale turnouts (item#'s 44861 and 44868) are built better than the older version. The switching gear in the older version would sometimes not catch. They solved that issue in the new ones by adding some screws.
Now onto learning more on how to install circuit breakers to avoid frying decoders and controllers. Any ideas on how I would go about that with my setup?
Thanks to everyone who enlightened me on using turnouts with DCC. Happy New Years to all!
George,
Glad to hear that you got your problem solved. From the outset, it was clear that the crossover was the problem.
One question, though, on your track configuration. Aren't your trains getting trapped on the loops?
For example, a train running counter clock wise on the outer loop can cross over to the middle loop, but then it is trapped there, unable to reach the inner loop and unable to return to the outer loop.
Same for a train starting on the inner loop.
A train starting on the middle loop is trapped there if it is running counter clock wise. If it is running clock wise, it can cross over to the inner loop or outer loop but once it crosses over, it is thereafter trapped on that loop.