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dcc requirements for layout

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  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Spanaway, WA
  • 787 posts
Posted by SMassey on Friday, December 16, 2011 3:35 PM

The first brass loco I put a decoder in was newer and had a design that was decoder friendly but not drop in.  It was alot like doing an Athearn BB engine.  The last one I did was a nightmare!  The drawbar was the wire for the motor from the tender pickups and the motor was "grounded" to the engines frame in the engine.  Just as Texas said, this can be a nightmare.  I ended up keeping the pickups how they were only I isolated the drawbar's connections, isolated the motor and rewired it all.  There were 3 wires going to the tender from the engine.  I housed the decoder in the tender and fed the motor wires and the engine pick up wire through the lower part of the cab and into the tender.  covered all 3 wires with shrink tubing and made the whole thing look like a water hose between the cab and tender.  This engine did not have any lighting so I did not have to worry about wiring all that in.  After I routed the wires we used a DH123 decoder and all worked great.  Not the best engine over switches it does hesitate a little but I dont have the skills to redesign the entire pickup scheme for the engine.

 

Massey

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  • From: Colorful Colorado
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Friday, December 16, 2011 3:18 PM

PRR1955
Throwing turnouts etc with a stationary decoder

On a layout your size why would you want to?  In my opinion and experience the only place I've seen turnouts controlled by the DCC system be efficient and effective is on very large layouts where it is used for entire train routing through the system, or centralized controll of a large yard.   I find controlling individual turnouts with a DCC controller 1. wears out the controller much faster, 2. Takes much more time than just reaching over and flipping the switch.  3.  Is much more like playing a video game than running a train.  and 4.  Is costly. 

 I'll have to look at converting my 2 old Brass loco to Dcc.

That can be easy or a nightmare depending on the locomotives.  Many old brass locos have open frame motors, hot frames, and steamers will have split pick ups.  All are problems with conversion. 

An open fram motor can draw up to 1.2 Amps in a normal operation mode let alone start up spikes.   On can get a high current decoder, but I usually recommend re-motoring.

A hot frame is where the frame is one of the "wires" to the motor.  In that case one has to break that connection and figure out how to get the decoder in between.   There is the additional problem of having to make certain the decoder cannot ever touch any part of the frame.  One cannot just wrap it in electrical tape because of heat issues.

A split pick up is where the left track power is picked up from the loco and the right power picked up from the tender. This means that usually there is only one wire running between the two.  If the decoder is placed in the existing power wire must be reversed, and two additional wires must be run up to the motor.  If one can put the decoder in the loco itself the existing power wire can be used, but there is often a space problem trying to wedge in the decoder with out starting to ditch weights.

A bit newer brass (starting around 1979) will often have electrically isolated motors.  A few even started having can motors at at that time.   Either of those puts one way ahead in the conversion game.

  • Member since
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  • From: Colorful Colorado
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Posted by Texas Zepher on Friday, December 16, 2011 2:59 PM

PRR1955
 Will the basic NCE system be enough?

Yes
Can the "smart" booster be added to this system easily?
Yes
Is there any real value in "power" blocks on something this size?
No.  The only reason I could see for additional power is if you have 20 locomotives sitting in the engine terminal that you want powered on all the time.  If you have temporary short circuit issues between the trains fix the issues causing them.  Don't overkill on another power supply.  Our club adds a new block and/or power supply when a section starts hitting 5 to 7 trains per area.  Sounds like your whole layout will never be that crowded.

  • Member since
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Posted by PRR1955 on Friday, December 16, 2011 1:44 PM

Thanks Men.

Throwing turnouts etc with a stationary decoder, and automatic reversing are things I never even dreamed of  until I read some of the articles/reviews. All good advice. Seems like the extra $ up front will save some down the road. Just have to save a little longer! Last layout was with my grandfather in the late 60's early 70's. I'll have to look at converting my 2 old Brass loco to Dcc.

 

Jeff

  • Member since
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  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, December 16, 2011 10:09 AM

I have a 5-amp Lenz system, and it serves my mid-sized layout well.  I would go with 5 amps right away, and never worry about needing more.  Boosters are overkill for almost any home layout.

I also agree with breaking up the layout into sub-power districts with breakers.  The important part is isolating sections of the layout with gaps or insulated rail joiners, because that's more awkward to do later on.  Also, wire each section separately, with a track bus running all the way back to the base station rather than connecting multiple buses end-to-end.  You don't need to provide the circuit breakers right away, but if you wire everything that way, it will be easier to put them in later.

Consider providing an on-layout programming track for DCC.  It's usually a siding located conveniently near the edge of the layout. Isolate that, and install a double-pole, double-throw toggle switch to allow it to be connected either to the adjacent track bus or to the programming track outputs of your DCC system.  This will let you program and test (and program again) without having to lift the engine and rerail it multiple times.

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Posted by tstage on Friday, December 16, 2011 10:04 AM

Hey Jeff,

Yep, the NCE Power Cab should work just fine for you for your application.  And the Smart Booster (SB3a) plugs into the back of a UTP panel, which is different than the Power Cab's PCP panel.  Power blocks are handy to have but not essential for the size layout you outline.  It's entirely up to you.

If you want to read up on what the SB3a offers you, click the link to my web site at the bottom of this post and go to the Review page.  The SB3 link will have all the general information.  The SB3a just covers the changes with the upgrade from the SB3.

Hope that helps...

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Friday, December 16, 2011 9:35 AM

 

Yes to all your questions.

However, for a layout that size, I would just start with the NCE Power Pro 5 amp system and be done with it. The power cab has limited current and you won't be able to use the majority of circuit breakers and electronic reversing modules that are available because of the low current available. Also, if you decide you want to connect a computer to your layout later, the serial com port on the Power Pro has more functionality that you can get with the Pro Cab.

I would also recommend breaking the layout up into Sub-Power districts. A Sub-Power district is made using a circuit breaker to feed an isolated part of the layout. A Power district is made by feeding an isolated part of the layout with a second booster that provides additional amps separate of the main booster.

You may be interested in some light reading: http://www.waynes-trains.com/site/dcc/basics.html

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

  • Member since
    January 2011
  • 22 posts
dcc requirements for layout
Posted by PRR1955 on Friday, December 16, 2011 6:16 AM

Getting back into the hobby after 40 years or so! DCC is where I want to be but I don't really understand which system I need for my Layout. Basic dog bone construction with a center yard and engine terminal. The mail line runs thirty feet in one direction and forty feet in the other. Will be operating mostly alone so 2 -3 locomotives is about all I can handle. Will the basic NCE system be enough? Can the "smart" booster be added to this system easily?  Is there any real value in "power" blocks on something this size?

Thanks!

Jeff Hilton

 

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