I keep coming back to the front wheels on the offending locos. This one particular type of loco is causing all of the problems. Instead of fooling with all of the turnouts, why not try to solve the shorting problem with the front wheels. Put on an Opti-Visor and run the loco slowly through the turnout so you can see where and why the shorting is occurring.
Rich
Alton Junction
What the problem looks like from your photo is that the rails diverging from the frog are very close toghether, so much so that a wheel tread can bridge the narrow gap and short across both of these rails. One temporary solution that I've heard people use for this is to apply some paint or even clear fingernail polish to the tops of the frog rails, at least out far enough that a wheelset can't contact both at once. A more permanent fix would be to gap both rails, ensuring you still have electricity flowing beyond the gap so as not to replace the short with an open.
Rob Spangler
yankee flyer :550:0]
:550:0]
Yes, pictures are better. But where is the gap you are making bigger? Does the short occur when you roll the wheel set through forced against the stock rail (all the way toward the bottom of the picture)? Does it occur when you push the wheel set through against the straight side guard rail (the short rail where your toothpick is pointing? Are you sure that the previous owner (I think you said you bought this used...if not ignore this question) didn't install a jumper wire somewhere on the bottom of the turnout that you didn't see?
OK I'll just post in a new reply.
On my problem, I have checked the wheel gauge, I've checked track gauge, guard rail spacing, height of frog, and I just took a fine milling block to the top of the converging rails (The point that the blue rod points to in the preceding post). That point is where it still shorts.
Lee
Train Modeler Consider: 1. Checking the gage of your wheelsets with an NMRA gage. They may be a little too wide. This is a frequent contributor to your problem.
Consider:
1. Checking the gage of your wheelsets with an NMRA gage. They may be a little too wide. This is a frequent contributor to your problem.
That's what I suspect is the problem since it only occurs with the one type of loco and only with the wheelset on the front truck.
2. Check the frog to wingrail distance(NMRA gage). If it is too narrow, you can fix by adding a .010 or more(as needed) thick piece of styrene(I may use Evergreen 1 x 10s as an example). Simply glue on the wingrail, inside near the stock rail. This will help keep your tread from crossing the frog diverging rails.
Richard
Good point Maxman (no pun intended).
On mine the problem is where the frog rails come close together. The link you provided suggested a fix that is resonable and makes sense.
Thanks for all the help!!
Chris
I agree, trying to explain in print can be a problem some times.
Here is a picture of the turnout in question. The blue rod points to the diverging or opposing rail and this is where the short occurs. I have ground an increasing large gap as the test has progressed. The tooth picks is the guide rail that should keep the wheel going straight. By holding the axle tips between my finger tips and rolling it through letting the inside flange roll alongside the guide rail, I had hoped to get a better understanding of what is happening. But a short is a short and the blue rod points to where it occurs.
I have not meant to hijack this thread but hope to show relevant information. Let me get back to you, I just thought of another test.
Having a hard time editing this post
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yankee flyer Following up on my previous comment, I have just ran 10 locos through this "defective" turnout and the conclusion is that it doesn't make any difference what type truck that shuts down the system.I used SW8 which was no problem to my steam 2-6-6-2. Some of the GPs shorted and the SD7 didn't.Some shorted on the turnout most shorted on straight through. I even ran a Kadee axle through, pushing slightly toward the turnout side, it shorted every time. This is with almost an 1/8" gap between the opposing rails. I am going to pull the ??? thing out and replace it. Are we having fun yet? Lee
Following up on my previous comment, I have just ran 10 locos through this "defective" turnout and the conclusion is that it doesn't make any difference what type truck that shuts down the system.I used SW8 which was no problem to my steam 2-6-6-2. Some of the GPs shorted and the SD7 didn't.Some shorted on the turnout most shorted on straight through. I even ran a Kadee axle through, pushing slightly toward the turnout side, it shorted every time. This is with almost an 1/8" gap between the opposing rails. I am going to pull the ??? thing out and replace it.
Are we having fun yet?
I think part of the problem trying to analyze these issues is that some of the smart people who could help out might be having trouble understanding where the shorts are actually happening. This might be due to the fact that we are not using clear, standard, terminology. Pushing an axle through toward the turnout side and describing a 1/8 inch gap between the opposing rails is not exactly clear to the reader. Maybe it would be better if we all had pictures of turnouts in front of us. Here is a link to a PECO Insulfrog: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm. And here is a link to an Atlas: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_atlas_roco.htm.
I'm not criticizing, mind you, just trying to make things clearer.
Hope this might be helpful to some.
Regards
Note: some don't short at all.
Lee and Rich,
Thanks.
The SW 1500's will short forward and reverse. I think it is tread width.
Since it is just the new SW1500's I am thinking maybe replace the wheel sets with NWSL???
In my signature I show a green RDG SW 8 P2K. This one and others like it have no trouble. I sound equipped it with a LokSound.
This adds a new meaning to Murphy's Corelary "nature sides with the hidden flaw".
What I wonder about in this case, though, is why these particular locos don't short in reverse but only in forward?Rich_____________________________________________________________________________
I have had the locos do some strange things and wouldn't put it past the little suckers.I now have an Atlas turnout that I picked up at a swap meet, that shorts out when a train moves through. I've widen the gap and checked everything I know about, with no luck.This turnout appears to be an older unit. the outside guide rails have a metal strip on the top. I don't see this on the new Atlas turnouts. If the loco goes through at slow speed it shuts the POWER CAB down.I believe the only solution is to replace the turnout.
Hope everything works out.
yankee flyer Are you talking about the narrow gap between the diverging rails at the frog? My SW8 had that problem if IIRC. I have had to widen this gap with several of my turnouts when I first started out. A "Dremel" with a thin cut off wheel will do the job nicely.
Are you talking about the narrow gap between the diverging rails at the frog? My SW8 had that problem if IIRC. I have had to widen this gap with several of my turnouts when I first started out. A "Dremel" with a thin cut off wheel will do the job nicely.
That may be, and sometimes I have had to modify a turnout all because of one troublesome loco.
What I wonder about in this case, though, is why these particular locos don't short in reverse but only in forward?
richhotrain RDG1519: Thanks Maxman, They are all insulfrog. The "spark test in the dark" revealed the short is across the two diverging inside rails. The wheel tread of the SW1500 is just wide enough to bridge these. Paper test confirms all wheels are picking up. Its interesting that the loco will back across the paper. With regard to insulators, where might you place these? Thanks, Chris It seems to me that if the locos move backwards across the point rails without shorting, then the problem must be somewhere in the front trucks of these problem locos. From what you have been describing, the turnouts don't seem to be the problem. Rich
RDG1519: Thanks Maxman, They are all insulfrog. The "spark test in the dark" revealed the short is across the two diverging inside rails. The wheel tread of the SW1500 is just wide enough to bridge these. Paper test confirms all wheels are picking up. Its interesting that the loco will back across the paper. With regard to insulators, where might you place these? Thanks, Chris
Thanks Maxman,
They are all insulfrog.
The "spark test in the dark" revealed the short is across the two diverging inside rails. The wheel tread of the SW1500 is just wide enough to bridge these.
Paper test confirms all wheels are picking up. Its interesting that the loco will back across the paper.
With regard to insulators, where might you place these?
Thanks, Chris
It seems to me that if the locos move backwards across the point rails without shorting, then the problem must be somewhere in the front trucks of these problem locos. From what you have been describing, the turnouts don't seem to be the problem.
Are you talking about the narrow gap between the diverging rails at the frog? My SW8 had that problem if IIRC.I have had to widen this gap with several of my turnouts when I first started out. A "Dremel" with a thin cut off wheel will do the job nicely.
Good luck.
RDG1519 Thanks Maxman, They are all insulfrog. The "spark test in the dark" revealed the short is across the two diverging inside rails. The wheel tread of the SW1500 is just wide enough to bridge these. Paper test confirms all wheels are picking up. Its interesting that the loco will back across the paper. With regard to insulators, where might you place these? Thanks, Chris
RDG1519 This is a good thread on the subject. Interestingly enough my PECO code 83 DCC Friendly turnouts are DCC Friendly except when I created a run arround track. I am using a set of PECO turnouts at each end. Each end of the run arround is a set of PECO turnouts enabling the loco to cross from one track to the other, a crossover arrangement. All the DCC equipped loco's work great except for one type, my great running Athearn SW1500's (new version). They stall short as they move from one turnout and start to enter the second turnout of the cross over. This happens at both ends of the run arround. I tryed painting a part of the track where I thought the width of the wheel was creating a short. This did not resolve the issue. How can I combine isolating frogs and sections of rail to enable the SW1500's to run without shorting out? Why is it that it is just the Athearn SW 1500's? Chris
This is a good thread on the subject.
Interestingly enough my PECO code 83 DCC Friendly turnouts are DCC Friendly except when I created a run arround track. I am using a set of PECO turnouts at each end. Each end of the run arround is a set of PECO turnouts enabling the loco to cross from one track to the other, a crossover arrangement.
All the DCC equipped loco's work great except for one type, my great running Athearn SW1500's (new version). They stall short as they move from one turnout and start to enter the second turnout of the cross over. This happens at both ends of the run arround.
I tryed painting a part of the track where I thought the width of the wheel was creating a short. This did not resolve the issue. How can I combine isolating frogs and sections of rail to enable the SW1500's to run without shorting out? Why is it that it is just the Athearn SW 1500's?
Chris,
Now that you have clarified that it is a short, not a stall, I took the liberty to strike out the word "stall" and insert the word "short" in italics. That ought to make it easier for others who may be reading this thread.
Since the short only occurs with your Athearn SW 1500's (how many do you have?), and since the short occurs on both of your crossovers at either end of your runaround track, it seems likely that the problem is attributable to your specific locos rather than the turnouts.
You say that these locos short as they move from one turnout and start to enter the second turnout of the cross over. Immediately or once the lead wheels reach the point rails? Pin it down for us as best you can.
RDG1519 When positioning the piece of paper there is sufficient weight that the engine is bumped and than the engine begins to move. I will run in the dark to see if I can see a spark. Chris
When positioning the piece of paper there is sufficient weight that the engine is bumped and than the engine begins to move. I will run in the dark to see if I can see a spark.
To test if the loco is picking up current properly, you don't need to put it on the section of track where you are having a problem. Just put it on a straight piece of track, slide the paper under one end, and apply power. If the engine moves, put the paper under the other end and repeat the test.
But a more basic question. You said that your PECO code 83 turnouts were DCC friendly. I just looked at the Walthers on-line catalog and see that they are offered both insulfrog and electrofrog. Which type do you have? Depending upon how they are actually internally wired, you may have to install some insulators.
Thanks, actually this is a short. The DCC system shuts down. It happens on both sets of turnouts at either end of the turnarround. Should have posted that earlier.
I will try the paper under a wheel and see what I get.
This is where a voltmeter or test light would really come in handy.
You would test each piece or small section of track like the wheels of a loco would do as it is going through the turnout / crossover. One probe on each rail and slide them along directly opposite of each other. This would tell you if you had continuity to every piece of rail / track.
To check for mis-wired sections or pieces, keep the probes on the same rail and work one along the rail while leaving the other one in the same place. If you get a section that lights up, that section is the opposite or wrong polarity.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
RDG1519 This is a good thread on the subject. Interestingly enough my PECO code 83 DCC Friendly turnouts are DCC Friendly except when I created a run arround track. I am using a set of PECO turnouts at each end. Each end of the run arround is a set of PECO turnouts enabling the loco to cross from one track to the other, a crossover arrangement. All the DCC equipped loco's work great except for one type, my great running Athearn SW1500's (new version). They stall as they move from one turnout and start to enter the second turnout of the cross over. This happens at both ends of the run arround. I tryed painting a part of the track where I thought the width of the wheel was creating a short. This did not resolve the issue. How can I combine isolating frogs and sections of rail to enable the SW1500's to run without shorting out? Why is it that it is just the Athearn SW 1500's? Chris
All the DCC equipped loco's work great except for one type, my great running Athearn SW1500's (new version). They stall as they move from one turnout and start to enter the second turnout of the cross over. This happens at both ends of the run arround.
Actually this sounds like it's stalling. If it were a short, the system would make an alerting noise and perhaps shut down(maybe it is and you just didn't say).
If that loco has sound, as mine did, I added a larger capacitor and it helped a bunch. If it doesn't have sound I would check to make sure all wheels are picking up current reliably and that the pickup connections are good on the PC board. Athearn uses those push connectors that can come loose from the PC board.
RDG1519 All the DCC equipped loco's work great except for one type, my great running Athearn SW1500's (new version). They stall as they move from one turnout and start to enter the second turnout of the cross over. This happens at both ends of the run arround. Chris
As richhotrain asks, is it stalling or shorting? If you have feeders going to both the main and the siding, it is possible that you have the wires swapped to one or the other. And this would result in a short. But if other engines are crossing this gap okay, then this condition would be unlikely.
If the engine is stalling, you may not be getting electrical pickup from both ends. To check for this, slide a piece of paper under one truck, apply power, and see if the engine moves off the paper. If it does, check the other end in the same manner.
It could also be that you have an electrical discontinuity. Check that the points are making good contact with the stock rails when they are thrown. Clean the contacting areas to make sure. Do you have unsoldered rail joiners at the powered (point) end of the turnout? If so, make sure they are tight.
RDG1519,
Is the loco stalling or shorting?
When I experience stalls, not shorts, on turnouts or double crossovers or double slips, I wire every end of that piece of track, and the stalls disappear. Shorts are a whole different matter, of course.
Well, after reading through 11 replies to the OP's question, now I am confused. I wonder how the OP is coping with all of this.
I use Altas Custom Line #6 turnouts throughout my DCC powered layout, but I also use several different Walthers Shinohara turnouts including curved turnouts, double crossovers and double slips. All of these items are marketed as DCC friendly. I have never cut gaps or added wiring, and I have never experienced any form of shorts when running equipment through these various track items.
Definitions aside, that is what DCC Friendly means to me, no gaps required, no special wiring, dead frogs. What am I missing?
If they don;t cut the gap below the frog then they aren;t following Fast Tracks designs, which are really just NMRA specification, but Fast tracks instructions and technique clearly have you cut the gaps to isolate he frog, which can then easily have a wire soldered to it to provide power. Fast tracks turnputs built per their instructions meet all requirements to be 'DCC Friendly"
There really is no official definition, jus tliek there is not one for "DCC Ready" locos. The most critical piece is having he point and adjacent stock rail the same polarity, ie insulated throwbar and gap below the frog. Power routing or not is not critical.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
As you can tell from the responses, you have some justification in your confusion. No question there are some mods which can help alleviate problems if other problems come up first from bad maintenance. In other words, if you wreck, have wheels out of gage, extra large flanges, etc--then extra effort to avoid "weird" shorts makes sense.
I use PECO, Shinohara, Atlas, and other turnouts/double slips, etc.. I converted my layout from a common rail DC system and haven't had any problems with a lot of turnouts--probably over 50 of them.
wp8thsub Texas Zepher: gandydancer19: What makes the turnout DCC friendly is that the open point rail is the same polarity as the stock rail next to it. Is that really an official definition or just an observation? Not sure about "official," but every DCC friendly turnout I've encountered fits that description.
Texas Zepher: gandydancer19: What makes the turnout DCC friendly is that the open point rail is the same polarity as the stock rail next to it. Is that really an official definition or just an observation?
gandydancer19: What makes the turnout DCC friendly is that the open point rail is the same polarity as the stock rail next to it.
What makes the turnout DCC friendly is that the open point rail is the same polarity as the stock rail next to it.
Not sure about "official," but every DCC friendly turnout I've encountered fits that description.