Hey everyone, I have some Atlas code 83 switches on my layout that I have electric Atlas switch machines for but I haven't wired them up yet. They are all about 4' away from where the switch controls are. I've been wondering how I should wire these up: stranded or solid wire? What gauge? How long should I leave the wires coming from the switch machine? Should I solder the connections or somehow solderlessly connect them? Also, what should I use to power the machines? Thanks!
Modeling New Haven despite what his user name says...
If you don't want to solder, get some terminal strips, the kind with two rows of screws. Usully you can;t get ones that are 3 position, it's 2 or 4. Run the wires under the layout, near the machoine mount the terminal strip. Cut back the wires, and attach them tot he screws on one side. FOr runnign back to the control panel. anything about 22 gauge or heavier will work. Stranded or solid doesn't really matter. Using 3 conductor wire is easier, since it's already bundled. If the colors don;t exactly match the 3 colors Atlas uses, come up with a system and stick with it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I went to Home Depot and bought a hundred-foot roll of telephone wire, two pair, which gives me four conductors. It's about #24 or #26, which is fine for switch machines. I solder the connections and use heat-shrink tubing to insulate the joints. Face it. If you're going to be a model railroader, you're going to have to solder stuff. This is one of the easier things to solder.
Consider how you're going to route your wires. You can go straight point-to-point across the layout from the turnout to the control panel, but you may want to consider doing it more systematically and running the wires through common wire runs for neatness and maintainability.
For twin-coil switch machines like Atlas an Peco, get a capacitive discharge (CD) circuit. You can build one yourself and drive it with an old train transformer, or you can buy a unit with a power supply built in. A CD circuit gives you a much stronger "kick" to throw the machines, which helps when you've got long wire runs or tougher machines like Pecos. It also protects the switch machines if the toggle on your control panel sticks.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Chessie Sys. 3022Hey everyone, I have ... electric Atlas switch machines... They are all about 4' away from where the switch controls are. I've been wondering how I should wire these up: stranded or solid wire? What gauge? How long should I leave the wires coming from the switch machine? Should I solder the connections or somehow solderlessly connect them? Also, what should I use to power the machines?
I second the idea of getting or building a capacitor discharge unit. Circuitron's Snapper is a good unit or there are plans out there to build your own with easily available parts. Telephone wire is good for using to operate the machines. The Red, Green and Black wires match the colors the manufacturers use and the Yellow will be a spare. I prefer stranded wire. With solid wire be careful you do not nick the wire while stripping the insulation. It will weaken the wire and will cause it to break if the wire is moved. If you are using the Atlas controllers there is no need to solder the wires. Loop the wire around the screws and tighten. The telephone wire is good for any length of run you will need especially if you use a CD unit.
rrinker If you don't want to solder, get some terminal strips, the kind with two rows of screws. Usully you can;t get ones that are 3 position, it's 2 or 4. --Randy
If you don't want to solder, get some terminal strips, the kind with two rows of screws. Usully you can;t get ones that are 3 position, it's 2 or 4. --Randy
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TS-323/3-POSITION-DUAL-ROW-TERMINAL-STRIP-10A/1.html
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
retsignalmtr I second the idea of getting or building a capacitor discharge unit. Circuitron's Snapper is a good unit or there are plans out there to build your own with easily available parts. Telephone wire is good for using to operate the machines. The Red, Green and Black wires match the colors the manufacturers use and the Yellow will be a spare. I prefer stranded wire. With solid wire be careful you do not nick the wire while stripping the insulation. It will weaken the wire and will cause it to break if the wire is moved. If you are using the Atlas controllers there is no need to solder the wires. Loop the wire around the screws and tighten. The telephone wire is good for any length of run you will need especially if you use a CD unit.
I went that route. Built 7 Capacitor discharge circuits and mount them near each switch. I wire the switch end of the circuits to terminal strips (then from strips to switch machines), and then use Cat-5 from the circuit to my control panel. I put Ethernet jacks on the ends of the Cat-5 so if I need to change my panel I just disconnect the jacks.
They work great 99% of the time, but were a pain to build.
Hey
I couldn't help but wonder why you needed 7 CDCs? I built one for less than $10. and it throws my double turnouts with no problem. It would probably power several more at one time. I built mine to run on 120V and puts out 30V for a split second. It only takes 1/2 second to recharge. I used three wire, bell wire. It didn't cost much.
Cheers
Lee
And if it's because of lots of turnotus to throw, there's a slightly fancier version that uses a power transistor to control the recharge of what can be a VERY large capcitor that shoudl eb able to throw a half dozen or more of the old heavy duty twin coil machines all at once - and a dozen Atlas ones at least. It was one liek this that I actually built even though it was probably overkill for my N scale layout with a grand total of 6 turnouts on it. It looks like a mess, the transistor is on a heat sink and the rest of the parts just hang off it, but it worked, and as far as I know still works although it's been stored away for 30 years now. My circuit came from Peter THorne's Practical Electronic Projects for Model Railroaders, but there's a nearly identical one on Rob Paisley's site.
Thanks for everyone's replies, I'll look into building one of those. I found some telephone wire that has four different wires, so I'll use that and just leave the fourth wire unused. I've got an extra power pack I could use to power the switches but I'd like to avoid using a lot of space on my control panel. I've heard some people use regular old adapters one would use for powering things like air mattress pumps, guitar effect pedals, some DCC systems, etc. Would this work too?
Chessie Sys. 3022I've got an extra power pack I could use to power the switches but I'd like to avoid using a lot of space on my control panel
I've heard some people use regular old adapters one would use for powering things like air mattress pumps, guitar effect pedals, some DCC systems, etc. Would this work tool
Chessie Sys. 3022 Thanks for everyone's replies, I'll look into building one of those. I found some telephone wire that has four different wires, so I'll use that and just leave the fourth wire unused. I've got an extra power pack I could use to power the switches but I'd like to avoid using a lot of space on my control panel. I've heard some people use regular old adapters one would use for powering things like air mattress pumps, guitar effect pedals, some DCC systems, etc. Would this work too?
If you are using the Atlas turnout motors I strongly suggest you use a capacitor discharge circuit, because if you don't, holding the switch too long will burn out motors. I went thru 2 or 3 motors before building my CDC and none after installing it.
Good luck.
yankee flyer retsignalmtr: They work great 99% of the time, but were a pain to build. Hey I couldn't help but wonder why you needed 7 CDCs? I built one for less than $10. and it throws my double turnouts with no problem. It would probably power several more at one time. I built mine to run on 120V and puts out 30V for a split second. It only takes 1/2 second to recharge. I used three wire, bell wire. It didn't cost much. Cheers Lee
The circuit I used was designed for each turnout. Ken Stapleton designed the circuit, and actually sells kits where you can build your own, as well completely assembled kits. I built my own using his design, but next time I'll save myself the trouble and just buy completed kits.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/Index.html
The CD circuits look like they would work well for me and would save a bunch of space on my control panel, plus I now know where I could store a power pack to power them. The only setback is money... Does anyone have a schematic I could use to build them myself? It might be cheaper that way...
Here is a link to a site that gives schematics for a couple of CD circuits.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CDPSU.html
Joe
JoeinPA Here is a link to a site that gives schematics for a couple of CD circuits. http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CDPSU.html Joe
Thanks Joe, I'm assuming I want circuit B on the first picture? However it doesn't show any switches or values for anything in the circuit, correct me if I'm wrong. Also, I'm not sure how the three wires from the switch machine hook up to that? Sorry for all my questions, I'm young, but not new to the hobby, just new to doing it right!
Following the good advice on this forum I bought a discharge unit. Here is a picture of my Circuitron Snapper (just taped to the frame with electricians tape). I modified it with two jacks in place of solder pins so it would accept two regular 3.5mm inline plugs. These go to my switch control stations which are separated by 25+ feet. And another jack to accept a regular power adapter input. Now I can unplug this if I should need to.
So, having more money than brains (in this case and generally with electronics) I bought this unit and had it in place many days earlier than if I had tried to make some.....especially if I thought I needed to make 7 or so discharge units....which seems odd, but I am no expert.
And with a 12VAC power source just like the one for my Zephyr controller it fires over 48 switches most of which are connected with phone wire connected to the little switch wires.
Cisco Kid Following the good advice on this forum I bought a discharge unit. Here is a picture of my Circuitron Snapper (just taped to the frame with electricians tape). I modified it with two jacks in place of solder pins so it would accept two regular 3.5mm inline plugs. These go to my switch control stations which are separated by 25+ feet. And another jack to accept a regular power adapter input. Now I can unplug this if I should need to. So, having more money than brains (in this case and generally with electronics) I bought this unit and had it in place many days earlier than if I had tried to make some.....especially if I thought I needed to make 7 or so discharge units....which seems odd, but I am no expert. And with a 12VAC power source just like the one for my Zephyr controller it fires over 48 switches most of which are connected with phone wire connected to the little switch wires.
Looks nice Crisco Kid, and sounds like it works well for you, which is great. However... I have far less money than brains and a decent understanding of electronics so I feel if I was to build a CD circuit I'd benefit from it more than having to buy it. Plus I only have 5 switches to control electronically so I don't need anything large or fancy, I'm just looking for safe electronic switching. I appreciate it though, and once I move onto a bigger, better layout I'll definitely consider your solution.
Chessie Sys. 3022 JoeinPA: Here is a link to a site that gives schematics for a couple of CD circuits. http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CDPSU.html Joe Thanks Joe, I'm assuming I want circuit B on the first picture? However it doesn't show any switches or values for anything in the circuit, correct me if I'm wrong. Also, I'm not sure how the three wires from the switch machine hook up to that? Sorry for all my questions, I'm young, but not new to the hobby, just new to doing it right!
JoeinPA: Here is a link to a site that gives schematics for a couple of CD circuits. http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CDPSU.html Joe
You want B, but if you scroll down the page a little bit you'll see a schematic that looks like B at the top (plus the 4 diodes for a full wave rectifier) only it specifies component values and types so you can actually build it and have a chance of it working. Very simple project. Not very fussy about keeping short wire runs, so don;t try to build it as small as you can, leave yourself plenty of room and use short bits of wire to interconnect components if needed. Use a small perfboard from Radio Shack to assemble it on.
Ahh I think I understand now. So I'd build that, plug a "wall wart" into the end with 16VAC then run the + and - ends to the Atlas switch controls?
Or eliminate the 4 diodes on the left and use a 12-16V DC power supply of at least 2 amps. The - of the power supply would go to the - of all the rest along the bottom. Don't mix that up, the big capacitor is polarized and they go boom when hooked up the wrong way. Literally. Use one at the top end of the specs - closer to 4700uF than 2200uF, the bigger the cap the more oomph the circuit has, and the more simulataneous switch machines it can operate. Don;t go over 4700 though, it may overload the transistor.
I wish I had my book handy, the one I built years ago sure looked like that one, but I could swear I powered it fromt he AC terminals of my old train set power pack when I got the MRC Tech II to run the trains. But my CD supply did not have the diodes in it, and that would be impossible to run on AC, it would fry the transistor if not the capacitor. It mayhave just has a single diode ont he input side. I know where the book is, just have to dig it out and look. I don;t have the unit, and youw ouldn;t want to see it - I simply connected allt he parts together with no perf board and soldered them together, hanging off the transistor (which I put in a heat sink). If I find it I can post all the Radio SHack part numbers for the pieces you need. Pretty sure it's all available fromt here still, even thought hey cut back on parts lately. It would eb cheaper from oen of the suppliers like Mouser but til you add in shipping and stuff... If you were building a dozen of them I'd advise getting parts from somewhere OTHER than Radio Shack, but for just one, it's all there.
Might go the DC route since we've got more of those laying around here. Actually might have some parts around too like a DC jack... Good thing I've sort of got a grasp on electronics too, I've played about with building/modding guitar effects (so I've also got perfboard around too!) I'll write up a parts list and stop down to Radio Shack and build one I think. Just one question I still have, the right side of the circuit those + and - leads (the input/output parts, maybe?) do those go on to connect to my first Atlas switch control box?
The output polarity does not matter, just connect the + to one side screw ont he Atlas boxes and the - to the other. It won't matter.
It DOES need a fairly hefty input supply, there is a bit of a surge as the transistor allows the cap to recharge. Wall warts usually have a fusible link in them so if you try to use a low power one (typical 500ma wall wart) it might blow that fusible link. I know using my old train set pack to power mine you could definitely tell when you let go of the turnout pushbutton and it recharged - but trains et power packs usually handle a short term overload without tripping. I'll find my book and get specifics.
Chessie, I think this is what you are also asking. Now that you have the idea of making or buying a capacitor discharge circuit, you wanted to see how to wire up the Atlas switch controllers to the wires coming from the Atlas snap switch machines.
Below are photos of one of my control boxes. Even if just using a few switches, the connections pattern is the same of course.
1. (Blue) Wires from one terminal of the control (doesn't matter which) are connected to one of the leads coming in from the cap. discharge (doesn't matter which) Here you can see the controls are made with connectors to make gang connections.
2 (Red) Wires from the other terminal of the control are connected to the remaining input lead from the cap discharge.
3. Wires from each switch side of the controller are run on out to the layout to connect with the red and green wires coming from the Atlas switch machines. It is best to use red and green wire to keep colours matched.
4. (Black) common wire does not need to go out to each machine. This is connected to a single terminal block in this control box and a single black common wire comes in from the layout. To this latter single wire, all the black common wires from the individual switch machines are connected somewhere on the layout through several other terminal strips. In other words, you do not need to run three wires from every switch machine back to the control area....just the red and green and gang up the common black out on the layout. This makes wiring a little simpler.
UNDERSIDE
1. Three wires from each control. Each black one goes to one side of terminal strip which has been modified with copper wire "bridges" to make each segment live.
2. Positive and negative inputs from the cap discharge unit. Mine is 16 VAC...same as on my Digitrax Zephyr throttle control. You need about this much power. Too little won't throw the machines out on the switches.....and the cap discharge protects you from too much continuous power appication from sticky controls on this panel (In all my years I had only one stick previously to using the cap discharge, however.)
One wire goes to the left side of the terminal strip shown. To the other side of the strip shown run all the common black wires from the controllers on the topside. You can double them up on the right side of course if you need to.
The other wire from the cap discharge goes to a terminal strip (not shown on the other side of this central wood bar). To this strip run the power wires from the sides of the controllers.....item 4
3. These strips I use throughout the layout. Elsewhere I use them to gang up the common wire and to attach the very small gauge Atlas switch motor wires to heavier wires running back to this control box and entering as shown. Note there is only one black wire entering with the bundle.
Hope this helps.....but if you knew all this, maybe it will help someone. It's not rocket science, but I always like to see pics. My boxes are very rudimentary but it was the way I started out...a few at a time, and kept expanding the layout instead of stopping and rebuilding with a state of the art control area, indicator lights etc. etc. Oh well.
Very helpful, Cisco Kid! I understand about hooking them up better now. I'll see what I can do with the CD circuit, hopefully it'll work!
If you want to build a capacitor/discharge for less than 10 bucks, hell I would say 5 dollars, then I would build the one off this post here. http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/model-railroad-help.61416/You really want the frist and second page of that forum. If you need the pics i downloaded them and can send them to you. This capacitor will fire off about 2 or 3 switches at once. In less than a second it recharges. I was reading this forum and tried to build this one http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CDPSU.html that was recommended, but it didn't work. The one I built from the first web site, that was really snaps the tracks. I love it.
I built the one in B on Rob Paisley's page way back in 1978 (there was no web back then - but the same simple circuit was in Peter Thorne's Practical Electronic Projects for Model Railroaders from Kalmbach). That's about a simple a one you can make with the fast recharge. Far as I know it still works, but I haven't used solenoid switch motors since, well, that layout that I used the CDU on way back then.