I have two identical Atthern Genesis locomotives. They are six axle diesels. I installed a Tsunami sound decoder in one and the other has the original board with a decoder plugged into the board.
Both units ran fine before the Tsunami conversion. Now the Tsunami locomotive shorts when crossing Walthers DCC friendly switches. It doesn't do it all the time, if you run it slow enough it works fine. All the other locomotives run fine and have no issues with these switches.
I have checked to ensure the frogs are insulated and there appears to be nothing wrong with them. The locomotive doesn't appear to have any issues.
Has anyone experienced a one of kind situation like this? If so, what fixed the problem? The frogs are not powered.
thanks
Welcome to the forums
Take one of the loco's causing the problem and push it through the turnout. Each time try something different like using your hand to torque the front truck to the left then the right.
Also run the loco through the turnout and watch what's happening. Sometimes you can see where it's happening. More times than not the problem happens at the frog when a flange hits both sides.
One way to check this is to disconnect one rail of the frog from it's track so nothing feeds it. The short should disappear.
The cause can be the turnout or the locomotive. It's possible that while handling the loco during the decoder change tha something got out of line, or even the wheel gauge may be off.
Springfield PA
Here's the point where the short will usually occur.
Tedd I have two identical Atthern Genesis locomotives. They are six axle diesels. I installed a Tsunami sound decoder in one and the other has the original board with a decoder plugged into the board.
If both Locos are the same as you have stated, then the Tsunami install should be the suspect. Other then that look at the driver wheel gauge. Also check the turnout in question. It may be a combination of things. A Loco wheel set out of gauge, trash in the frog, the frog out of gauge, the Loco frame dropping down at the frog shorting across the track.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
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We seem to forget that the frog on a Walther's DCC friendly turnouts is a dead frog. Therefore no short can occur at the frog on this type of turnouts. I suspect poor electrical contact between the rails and the loco, unless of course these are not the DCC friendly type..
Jack W.
I believe the spot pointed to is just before the frog. And may be getting power from both of the mainline rails causing a short of types at the point where the two rails are closest, being bridged by the drive wheel for just a moment before entering the frog.
Johnnny_reb I believe the spot pointed to is just before the frog. And may be getting power from both of the mainline rails causing a short of types at the point where the two rails are closest, being bridged by the drive wheel for just a moment before entering the frog.
You do have a valid point, however on a Walthers DCC friendly turnouts this type of short is impossible to happen. Unless the wheels gauge is way off, I mean so off that the wheel set will not be able to ride the rails.
I will try to post a picture of a Walthers DCC friendly turnouts later on.
This is a #4 Walthers DCC friendly turnouts. The part marked is the dead frog.
The next picture show a place where a short is likely to occur, the spacing between both rails is too wide for wheels in gauge to bridge both rails.
It's actually just to the left of the small drawn circle where the rails are closest together. I've had to fix a few in that area. Sometimes just a screwdriver blade tweak and sometimes a filing with my dremel.
Also it doesn't have to be the same wheel shorting. You can have the front wheel hit one rail and the second wheel hit the other
Hamltnblue,
To the left of the small circle there is a dead spot no current is flowing.
You may be right or I might be wrong but to me it is impossible to short these switches with wheels in gage. To short by bridging both rails the wheel set has to be so off gage that it will be unable to ride the rails.
This picture shows the insulating gap that is isolating the frog next to the left of the small circle in the picture above..
.
To me the OP problem is within the loco, wheels may be lifting from the rail for a very brief period of time as the problem shows only at speed.
So they added an additional gap before the Y. Looking at that pic I can't see where the short could occur at the usual spot. The OP should verify that he has gaps at the same spots. I've had a couple peco's with electrofrogs in insulfrog boxes.
Here's a link to turnout wiring.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
These Walthers DCC friendly turnouts are on the marketplace for 2 years or more, they are 100% foolproof with DCC, no special wiring attention is required with them.
The frog is completely insulated with gaps before the frog and after the frog. I have 4 of them 3 are installed and in use, no problem so far.
The following picture shows where the gaps are.
Ok, I took the screw driver and spread the rails at the location and it fixed one switch completely, the other it appears that I am going to have to bond the point rails as the locomotive stalls when one truck is completely on them. Thanks for the assist.
jalajoie Hamltnblue, To the left of the small circle there is a dead spot no current is flowing. You may be right or I might be wrong but to me it is impossible to short these switches with wheels in gage. To short by bridging both rails the wheel set has to be so off gage that it will be unable to ride the rails. This picture shows the insulating gap that is isolating the frog next to the left of the small circle in the picture above.. . To me the OP problem is within the loco, wheels may be lifting from the rail for a very brief period of time as the problem shows only at speed.
My theory is, since this is a six-axle diesel, one set of wheels could be before the gap on the powered points, and one after the gap, therefore electrifying the insulated part of the frog. When the wheel passes through the problem spot, the same thing will happen as if the turnout had a powered frog. If I am wrong, correct me, but it seems right.
Modeling the Maine Central in N scale.
WWtrain, at first glance your theory does make sense and I think you are on to something.
What puzzle me is the frog will be energized with the proper polarity therefore no short can occur.
Your theory is worth investigating further and I will make some test.
WWtrain jalajoie: Hamltnblue, To the left of the small circle there is a dead spot no current is flowing. You may be right or I might be wrong but to me it is impossible to short these switches with wheels in gage. To short by bridging both rails the wheel set has to be so off gage that it will be unable to ride the rails. This picture shows the insulating gap that is isolating the frog next to the left of the small circle in the picture above.. . To me the OP problem is within the loco, wheels may be lifting from the rail for a very brief period of time as the problem shows only at speed. My theory is, since this is a six-axle diesel, one set of wheels could be before the gap on the powered points, and one after the gap, therefore electrifying the insulated part of the frog. When the wheel passes through the problem spot, the same thing will happen as if the turnout had a powered frog. If I am wrong, correct me, but it seems right.
jalajoie: Hamltnblue, To the left of the small circle there is a dead spot no current is flowing. You may be right or I might be wrong but to me it is impossible to short these switches with wheels in gage. To short by bridging both rails the wheel set has to be so off gage that it will be unable to ride the rails. This picture shows the insulating gap that is isolating the frog next to the left of the small circle in the picture above.. . To me the OP problem is within the loco, wheels may be lifting from the rail for a very brief period of time as the problem shows only at speed.
I ran a 6-axle diesel through my Walthers #4 DCC-friendly with no problem/no short.
Dante
I know I've had some Proto E-units that had wheelsets that were significantly out of gauge - too narrow. I think manufacturers do this to allow the engines to squeeze around 18"R curves. When I widened out the wheelsets, the problem went away.
I would take an offending loco and place it on the turnout. Use your hand and torque a truck side to side while pushing it through to see if a short can be created. Many loco's have wheels that will slide side to side so that they can work on tighter curves. It's possible for one wheel to slide to the right while another is to the left.
Just a thought.
Have you checked the gap between the opposing rails just to the left of the circle to see if the gap is wide enough?I have had to take fine a saw and widen the gap to keep some of my turnouts from shorting. On a three axle truck the center axle will shift, and the wide tread on some locos will short the two together.
Good luck.
Lee
Edit: Sorry about duplicating other's advice.
That's what we were talking about earlier in the thread. This particular turnout has an insulator next to the frog thta makes the gap wider than say an atlas.
There is another problem I have had with the Atlas turnouts which may not apply to these turnouts. By checking with a steel ruler I found that the frog sat high on some and caused the drivers to lift off the track, as some one else mentioned. I put a track nail beside the frog to draw it down.It worked in my case.
I would like to thank everyone for your thoughts on this.
I checked the track gauge, rail gaps and such, when I got to the locomotive I found the culprit.
The six axle locomotives center axles move a little better than a sixteenth of an inch. The identical locomotive that I have does not do this. So back to the manufacturer for repair.
I did spread the rails in front of the frog with a small screw driver which did allow the locomotive to go through the switch a couple of times without an issue.
Being that none of my other locos have any issues with this trackwork I rest assured that the problem was the center axle on that locomotive trucks.
Thanks.
That's probably not a defect in the loco - in order for it to make typical sharp model railroad curves there needs to be some play in that center axle, otherwise it wouldn't run on anything less than 30" radius curves.
In making a turnout 'dcc friendly' is removes the chance for the short to occur in the places indicated - which is useful for both DC and DCC operation.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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