I like DCC& sound: with it everything come at life, and I feel that it is the present and the future...but:...: when the loco come bad, and you can´t fix it, and you set the CVs up and down by trial an error, and you mail to the shop, or the manufacturer, or the importer, and nothing is useful.....I want to forget DCC, and return to the quietness of DC, remembering the wonderful smooth running of a KATO, and so on....Yes, this is retrogade thinking, but.....
I thought you fixed your Mantua? Do you have another loco with an issue?
My youngest son has a Kato SD something-or-another with a TCS non -sound decoder with the superb TCS auto BEMF and this thing run so incredibly smooth at really slow speeds it is amazing. I am of the opinion that a great running DC loco when given a good motor control decoder can be even better.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Like most aspects of model railroading, sound & DCC can be frustrating when things go wrong, and how to fix things is an unknown. It is a hobby, and there is nothing inherently wrong with retreating to a more "RTR" method or scenario. On the other hand, it is by stretching ourselves, and dealing with occasional frustrations that we grow personally and in the hobby.
Scenery, backdrops, and weathering are my personal frustrations. Bullet-proof trackwork used to be, but I taught myself to hand lay with the help of articles in Model Railroader. Now, dealing with complex trackwork doesn't bother me much at all. I'm sure the same will eventually come of backdrops and weathering.
Another example might be the difference between operating as a spectator, and operating as the engineer/brakeman conducting switching operations. There is nothing wrong with the former. And getting into switching operations requires a quality increase in layout infrastructure (track, electrical pickup, slow speed running and control, uncoupling, coupling) that is not required for basic spectator operations.
Most aspects of model railroading require an infrastructure step up to achieve success in the advanced mode. It's hard to imagine doing quality painting and weathering without access to an airbrush and the knowledge of how to use it at least some of time. Hand laying a turnout requires some knowledge of the relationships between gauge, check gauge, and flangeways; methods for forming frogs and points; and the various parts of a turnout. A few tools and supplies like ties, gauges, spikes or special glues, and soldering equipment are also needed.
In your case, there is nothing wrong with resetting the decoder and running with the defaults. Or removing the decoder and running the locomotive on DC (and no sound). Or going full bore into CV programming with the help of Decoder Pro and a computer interface, learning the decoder manuals, and determining what options on the decoder you want to use. The latter- typically considered advanced mode - requires a step up in knowledge and infrastructure to be successful.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Whatever makes you happy, go for it.
Springfield PA
Thanks to the blue line and many other locos such as atlas you can have sound and DC. That's what I plan on doing, and that will make me very happy. If you can be happy with even less DC and no sound even better. Think of all the money you will save. It is your hobby so the only one that needs to be happy with it is you.
Once again I find myself in full agreement with Hamitnblue.......... "whatever makes you happy.........."
I've been in the hobby since the 1950s (yikes!), but only into DCC the last three years. Frankly, I was afraid of it for a long time, until the folks here convinced me that it is only as complicated as you want it to be.
Well, my new 11x15 two level layout is up and running, and the DCC operating system is everything I could want. And Yes, I have encountered problems along the way, but I worked my way thru them, often with the help of the good folks on this forum.
One thing I learned, is if there is a problem, attack it analytically and not randomly changing settings or what have you. If you have a specific problem, send out a posting here - and it will be addressed!
Oh, another thing I learned is to know my limitations.......... In example, while I have installed decoders in several locos, they were all easy plug ins or direct wiring. I did not (as of yet) attack a Kato or older Athearn or Mantua loco that needed total motor isolation or the like. This ol boy has to walk before he can run.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
No sound, no thanks. I love the sound of growling engines, and flashing ditchlights at the touch of a button.
Quiet locos just real boring.
What I do when a loco is behaving badly, I remove it from the layout. Problem fixed.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I think that DCC is a whole lot simpler to master than DC.
If you can learn how to operate in DC, then take the time to learn to operate in DCC.
Instead of saying it is broke and I can't fix it, learn to fix it.
C'mon, man, get your head on straight.
Rich
Alton Junction
Harley, I with you 50% percent of the way. I like DC for the simple fact if the motor runs, there is no problem. If it does not run much easier to figure why. If you have power to the rails in DC, your engine runs. In DCC if you have a wire to small the you cook a decoder.
Right now I am battling a Athearn SD 50 that motor seems to be drawing to much power. Pulling .85 amps free wheeling out of the engine. Cooked a $22.00 decoder.
But, if the only problem you are having is setting CV's. Never Fear The PR 3 is here! The PR 3 is a computer interfaces by Digitrax that lets you use your computer to read, write and store CV's settings! Makes it very easy to read the decoder and change sounds and running CV's.
Sound is real simple, you pull up the sound page, it shows all the sounds the engine will make. There is a slide bar next to the sound and you just drag the slide to the level you want.
Plus, there a default setting for the decoder. If you goof up a CV, it will write all the stock CV's back into the decoder.
Or, if you have saved (stored) the decoders setting the way you wanted them, use it to rewrite the CV's.
Cost is only $70.00 with the PS 14 power supply, best $70.00 I ever spent on the train layout.
Far as sound, sometimes I am in the mood, sometimes I like quite.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
It sounds like the OP isn't really "tired" of DCC as much as DCC sound. The old Soundtraxx "LC" sound decoders weren't great, but were pretty simple and rugged. Newer decoders like Tsunamis can be very frustrating with the numerous CVs, particularly since sometimes a CV will seem to change on it's own for no apparent reason!! Decoder Pro is a great help in doing DCC sound decoders. Once you have a decoder the way you want it, you can save the settings in Decoder Pro and use it to re-program the decoder if necessary.
Imagine having a proto train moving past you with nothing but high-pitched clicks of the metal tires on any gaps in the rails. No prime mover, no lights on when stopped, no whistle. I realize some DC engines can do all this, but....only with Blueline type decoders on board or with a bench-proximal speaker system.
To me, a silent train is a dead one. I won't go back to soundless locomotives, no matter what.
Crandell
DCC is like computer programming 101. Some people get some don't. I'm a DC guy don't get me wrong. Someday I'll make the change to DCC. Just take your time and follow the steps in the instructions. Check them off on a check list if need be. But never skip a step, and always use a check list.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
I'm a DC guy and I've thought about changing to DCC often but have never been able to convince myself the dollars and retrofit time is worth it. I've researched sound only on a few locos but still cannot convince myself it is worth the added headaches. Maybe if I were starting from scratch it would be worth it but I am fully immersed in a DC only layout. I want to paint and detail buildings and rolling stock and not spend hours troubleshooting a dead loco. I find it satisfying that I can walk downstairs, power up the MRC CM20, and make the train go round and round for hours without a hitch, whenever I want.
-Paul
Fastball I'm a DC guy and I've thought about changing to DCC often but have never been able to convince myself the dollars and retrofit time is worth it. I've researched sound only on a few locos but still cannot convince myself it is worth the added headaches. Maybe if I were starting from scratch it would be worth it but I am fully immersed in a DC only layout. I want to paint and detail buildings and rolling stock and not spend hours troubleshooting a dead loco. I find it satisfying that I can walk downstairs, power up the MRC CM20, and make the train go round and round for hours without a hitch, whenever I want. -Paul
I can do that in DCC.
Me, too. My only issues from occasion to occasion on my layout amount to me being bone-headed and forgetting to line a route. My DCC has worked flawlessly for six years now.
I suspect he is frustrated and looking for attention.
I see DCC as a challenge and even at 70 I am still looking for challenges. I love DCC and sound.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
selector Me, too. My only issues from occasion to occasion on my layout amount to me being bone-headed and forgetting to line a route. My DCC has worked flawlessly for six years now. Crandell
I think that's required every now and then even in DC Selector. I know I've done it.
Pretty much my experience, I am now building my second DCC layout. So far no real bonehead moves on the turnouts, but that could be because the ones that would right now cause a problem, like dump a train on the floor because thereis no track beyond the diverging route, don't have controls connected yet, so there is no way to accidently set them the wrong way. But then I'm known for not messing things liek that up - back when I was a kid we put up a 4x8 plus extension for the holidays, and even though my Dad did all the track laying, he couldn;t get more than a lap or two without lining a switch wrong and going on the ground. I was the only one who could reliably run it.
My ex father in law, who will tell you himself is no computer whiz, had no problem figuring out how to operate trains with DCC, including powering on the system when I wasn't around. No, he didn;t install any decoders, but most of his equipment was older and needed hard wiring, and even those that didn't, I was using almost all NCE D13SRJ decoders because of the low price and hard wired ones that may have had a plug option.
But overall, I've had no problems with DCC, and have yet to even so much as fry a decoder. Now, if you want complicated, you can try my DT100 throttle. Even I need a cheat sheet with that one, but that's also a device that was discontinued many years ago. But it still works on a modern system - no planned obsolescence here. Just VAST improvements in the user experience.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
selector Imagine having a proto train moving past you with nothing but high-pitched clicks of the metal tires on any gaps in the rails. No prime mover, no lights on when stopped, no whistle. I realize some DC engines can do all this, but....only with Blueline type decoders on board or with a bench-proximal speaker system. To me, a silent train is a dead one. I won't go back to soundless locomotives, no matter what. Crandell
Crandell, you like sound, I get that. But may I suggest that if you observe the prototype in its natural invironment, the sounds of locomotives are not nearly as prominent as one at first thinks.
Sure, if I am standing on the platform of a station, of even 20' from the tracks, the locomotive makes a big impression on me - sight, sound and feel wise.
BUT, at 261', 3 feet away in HO scale, the real life experiance is quite different. In fact, at that distance from a real train, the sound of the loco often fades quickly as it passes and is replaced by the clickity clack of the track and wheels. After 10 or 20 cars go by, the sound of the loco is lost in the mechanical noise of the train.
So, if I put my face as close to my HO train as I can, and still focus my eyes on it - about 10 inches - I am still 70' away from it.
So from my point of view, in small scale models like HO or N, onboard sound is too loud (even turned down low), too high pitched, carries too far in the room, and lacks fidelity to the prototype in a number of ways.
My view is also colored by the fact that I do not see model train operation only from the "walk around", "be the engineer", "stay with the loco" stand point. While I do use walk around operation, I also enjoy "railfan" viewing - keeping still and "watching' the train go by. If I can still hear the loco on the other side of the room, the effect of the train "passing" me is lost.
Now in larger scale models, its a different story.
Just a different opinion.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL selector: Imagine having a proto train moving past you with nothing but high-pitched clicks of the metal tires on any gaps in the rails. No prime mover, no lights on when stopped, no whistle. I realize some DC engines can do all this, but....only with Blueline type decoders on board or with a bench-proximal speaker system. To me, a silent train is a dead one. I won't go back to soundless locomotives, no matter what. Crandell Crandell, you like sound, I get that. But may I suggest that if you observe the prototype in its natural invironment, the sounds of locomotives are not nearly as prominent as one at first thinks. Sure, if I am standing on the platform of a station, of even 20' from the tracks, the locomotive makes a big impression on me - sight, sound and feel wise. BUT, at 261', 3 feet away in HO scale, the real life experiance is quite different. In fact, at that distance from a real train, the sound of the loco often fades quickly as it passes and is replaced by the clickity clack of the track and wheels. After 10 or 20 cars go by, the sound of the loco is lost in the mechanical noise of the train. So, if I put my face as close to my HO train as I can, and still focus my eyes on it - about 10 inches - I am still 70' away from it. So from my point of view, in small scale models like HO or N, onboard sound is too loud (even turned down low), too high pitched, carries too far in the room, and lacks fidelity to the prototype in a number of ways. My view is also colored by the fact that I do not see model train operation only from the "walk around", "be the engineer", "stay with the loco" stand point. While I do use walk around operation, I also enjoy "railfan" viewing - keeping still and "watching' the train go by. If I can still hear the loco on the other side of the room, the effect of the train "passing" me is lost. Now in larger scale models, its a different story. Just a different opinion. Sheldon
selector: Imagine having a proto train moving past you with nothing but high-pitched clicks of the metal tires on any gaps in the rails. No prime mover, no lights on when stopped, no whistle. I realize some DC engines can do all this, but....only with Blueline type decoders on board or with a bench-proximal speaker system. To me, a silent train is a dead one. I won't go back to soundless locomotives, no matter what. Crandell
I get it now, There are "rivet counters" and "sound counters" .
Harley-Davidson I like DCC& sound: with it everything come at life, and I feel that it is the present and the future...but:...: when the loco come bad, and you can´t fix it, and you set the CVs up and down by trial an error, and you mail to the shop, or the manufacturer, or the importer, and nothing is useful.....I want to forget DCC, and return to the quietness of DC, remembering the wonderful smooth running of a KATO, and so on....Yes, this is retrogade thinking, but.....
Don't let this discussion digress too much into a critique of scale sound. The OP acknowledges that he likes sound, but he is frustrated over broken locos, complex CV settings, and returns to the manufacturer. It is DCC, not sound versus non-sound, that is the issue.
Well, most of those new releases that seem to be the problem are nto locos that I'm interested in. I run mostly Proto 2000 from before Walthers, Stewart, and Atlas/Kato locos, and they run just as reliably on DCC as they do DC, in other words - none of mine has even broken. The only 'newer' locos I have are a pair of Precision Craft Reading T-1's, and both of those are excellent performenrs and have not given me any trouble. They don't run much on my home layout as they are too big, but they rack up the mileage at club shows.
As for sound, SHeldon's reasonign is exaclty why I turn the volume on my locos with sound way down. If the other side of your room is supposed to be 50 miles or more away, you shouldn;t hear the locos over there You should hear it approach you, pass, and go away. Most sound locos by default come set on rock concert volume levels. Fine for a crowded public display where you won't hear it a couple feet away anyway, but at home, WAY too much.
Crandell,Come and go railfanning with me and I will show you how silent the prototype can be.I call it deadly silent because when you hear it just may be to late..Even a steam engine could drift with no sound.
Sound in DC has come a long way..The MRC Tech 6 will give DC users full sound just like in DCC..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Can't say I've ever heard a totaly silent prototype train, but I've never worked for the railroad. I HAVE 'heard' trains that I did not hear until they were right at my viewing location. This is how foolish people walking on the tracks get struck from behind. It is entirely possible to not hear a thing, not even a blaring horn, depending on conditions, until it is too late.
As for the Tech 6 - well, I've posted about that before. Rather then spend tha tmoney, just get an actual DCC system, because that's all it is - a DCC system that's even more limited than the Bachmann EZ. It makes it SEEM like DC users are getting access to all teh sounds and control that a DCC user would have - and indeed they are, just NOT under 'DC' - the Tech 6 can switch between sending DC or DCC to the rails. If you add a 'real' DCC system and a DPDT toggle switch to your existing DC power pack, you've done the same thign only better - access to multipel DCC locos at the same time using addresses of your choosing, for two. Flip the switch, all your unconverted DC locos can run just like before. The prce difference between the Tech 6 and a starter DCC system isn;t all that much. It's inventing a niche through marketing speak that doesn't really exist. Marketing speak and praying on an overall low level of understanding of wiring.
I know what Larry and Sheldon are saying, and I agree...the evidence is clear from all the whistling trespassers walking along what they thought were clear and largely unused tracks only to get blasted out of their reverie by a blaattttt on a diesel horn, or worse, end up in the morgue. It has happened countless times.
And I agree that sound, for me, has its limitations. It isn't very accurate, has no boom in view of the physics, and it scales about as well as water motion on a layout. I also turn it down to about 50% in most cases, sometimes less, particularly for the more irritating sounds such as blow down and injector noise. Injector in the cab, okay, but not at 300' from the loco in scale, please.
In relative terms, is what I meant...even trains with the engines long since gone around the bend, the noise is entirely different from what trails those engines from the silence broken only by a highly treble clickety click of the cars on an HO layout...no comparison at all.
I like my plain Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos with no sound and plain DCC controller Bachmann EZ Command DCC. Juat two wires to my small layout will do the trick {but I've added a few feeders}.
No fuss, no muss, no constantly changing the CV's or anything or selecting the proper horn or whistle form 10,000 sounds of horns or whistles...particularly if I've never heard it sound off.
Real simple like me.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Loco sound levels are a relative thing. Early in the morning I can hear the rumble of Loco motors a couple of miles away and the horns a little further. In the middle of the day there are other sounds that are competing (traffic etc) so you can only hear the same loco's less than a quarter mile or shorter.
For those who don't hear a train coming it's because they are in front of it and the sounds project mostly out from the sides with the exception of the horn. There's nothing quiet about the train at all, just relative to the environment and where you stand in relation to them.