Dear simon
Thanks for the education, fine sir.
--Jaddie
Hudson,
1. OP stands for "original poster"
2. Given that MRRing deals with few consumables, I would tend to agree
3. The Zephyr Xtra would be an excellent starter set. It has some very nice features. The NCE Power Cab would also be a good choice.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I have just a few more questions and thoughts.
First, what is an "OP" that richhotrain referred to?
Second, while it is difficult to convince the wife that her "pocket" $$ is well spent on my projects, I do believe that she believes that the investment is worth it if it keeps me out of her hair.
Third, is the Zephyr Xtra Starter Set a good choice to start with? Can it be expanded as the project grows?
HudsonRR 5. I want sound and lights
5. I want sound and lights
If you want onboard sound, you want DCC. There is no other effective system of control of onboard sound in HO at this time.
And even as passive sound, dual mode sound decoders that run on DC do a poor job with both the sound and the motor control aspects of running your trains.
Sheldon
First, I would like to thank everyone for their responses. You have posed some interest questions and I have found that I did not provide enought info about what i have in mind. So here goes:1. I am a Red Wing fan so I find hockey very frustrating this time of the year.
1. My current layout was a 4x8 with 2 unconnected ovals and 2 trains. It was simple DC with no trunouts. But it alson had a 1967 version Aurora Model Motoreing slot car set goint treu it,
2. I am building this layout in my home and I am a "lone wolf" on this project
3. My layout calls for a U-shaped table that will fill part of the L-shaped dowstairs family room; approximate size or room = 11 ft by 15 ft.. The layout has been designed for an industrial area( Red Wing Mill, ADM Grainery, etc.), trasition into a town setting and moving to a country setting. It is somewhat of a large undertaking and I have aready built most of the benchwork as I have alot of 3/4" plywood and 2x4's laying around the garage.
4. Scale = HO
6. I am planning to start with 2 trains, but expansion is always possible as most of my endevors have a tencency to take on a life by themself.
richhotrain If you just want an oval on a 4 x8 table and are content to just run one train at a time, OK, then forget DCC and just buy a DC power pack. But, otherwise, why are we even debating the issue?
If you just want an oval on a 4 x8 table and are content to just run one train at a time, OK, then forget DCC and just buy a DC power pack.
But, otherwise, why are we even debating the issue?
Because whilst that might be the most common view, it is not the only view. We know very little about what the OP knows, wants or plans to do? For all we know he is a young kid trying to do this with pocket money where a $150 starter DCC system is out of the question?
I actually agree with you, that for my situation it would be a no-brainer DCC choice, but until the OP comes back and fleshes out his thoughts there really is not much more to be said.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
jwmurrayjr richhotrain: For the cost of DCC which is not that great, and the simplicity of wiring DCC versus DC, to me it is a no-brainer. Go DCC from the outset. I did 8 years ago and never looked back, never regretted it. Rich Yep! Ditto. DCC is basically very simple. But it can be very complicated if you like that sort of thing. I enjoy modeling and running trains, not electrical complexities so much. Easy DCC and Digitraxx are almost "open ended" with opportunities for the electronics tweaker. NCE and, I guess, MRC seem to already have all the features I would need and a more friendly "user interface".
richhotrain: For the cost of DCC which is not that great, and the simplicity of wiring DCC versus DC, to me it is a no-brainer. Go DCC from the outset. I did 8 years ago and never looked back, never regretted it. Rich
For the cost of DCC which is not that great, and the simplicity of wiring DCC versus DC, to me it is a no-brainer. Go DCC from the outset. I did 8 years ago and never looked back, never regretted it.
Rich
Yep! Ditto.
DCC is basically very simple. But it can be very complicated if you like that sort of thing.
I enjoy modeling and running trains, not electrical complexities so much.
Easy DCC and Digitraxx are almost "open ended" with opportunities for the electronics tweaker.
NCE and, I guess, MRC seem to already have all the features I would need and a more friendly "user interface".
Here's the thing.
I can see someone who has built an extensive DC layout may be reluctant to convert to DCC and install decoders in engines, etc.
But, someone starting out and interested in building a mid to large size layout, now or later, should just bite the bullet and go DCC from the outset.
Alton Junction
richhotrain For the cost of DCC which is not that great, and the simplicity of wiring DCC versus DC, to me it is a no-brainer. Go DCC from the outset. I did 8 years ago and never looked back, never regretted it. Rich
Jim Murray The San Juan Southern RR
MisterBeasley If you are designing a DC layout and you're having trouble deciding where the blocks should be, then you're a good candidate for DCC. This is particularly important on smaller layouts, where running multiple trains means constantly switching blocks. That part of the hobby all goes away with DCC. davidmbedard: P.S. For the sanity for the rest of us Canadians that live East of the Great Divide, I hope the 'Nucks choke. David B As a hockey player myself and a Bruins fan, I couldn't agree more.
If you are designing a DC layout and you're having trouble deciding where the blocks should be, then you're a good candidate for DCC. This is particularly important on smaller layouts, where running multiple trains means constantly switching blocks. That part of the hobby all goes away with DCC.
davidmbedard: P.S. For the sanity for the rest of us Canadians that live East of the Great Divide, I hope the 'Nucks choke. David B
P.S. For the sanity for the rest of us Canadians that live East of the Great Divide, I hope the 'Nucks choke.
David B
As a hockey player myself and a Bruins fan, I couldn't agree more.
I would agree completely that small and medium sized layouts where multi train operation is desired are best served by DCC. It is actually larger layouts were prototypical operation is desired, that can actually benifit from the "restrictions" of DC, that is needing clearance, and thereby block power, from a dispatcher before proceeding. And if a dispatcher is "clearing your signal" and in the same action powering your next track section, then you the engineer don't have any "toggles to flip", buttons to push, rotaries to turn, you just run the train, when and where you are told, just like the big boys do.
That said, I personally never had any interest in running two or more train by myself, unless they were on deticated routes for display running, and that can be just as easily done in DC as in DCC.
So, in my view, small to medium layouts designed for multiple operators, should likely be DCC for best/easiest operation. Large layouts are a coin flip, depending on desired operation, unless you want sound. Single operator layouts likely save a lot money with DC, again, unless you want sound.
One guy I know has a basement filling point to point industrial layout - with one Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttle for the whole thing - he only runs one train at a time, and other locos are parked in sidings or sections with kill switches.
It's hard to beat his less than $200 investment in wireless walk around control given his goals and desires - what is the cost of a basic wireless DCC system?, plus the cost of decoders - I know he has at least 50 locos?
And, to the OP and others, I will pose the same question I have asked over and over - what is the point of DCC if it is not wireless? DCC makes you the engineer, so "staying" with you loco would seem important.
As for hockey, I use to follow it some, but lost interest in all pro sports a few decades ago. Over paid spoiled children allowed to act out in public. Not something I wish to condone or support in any way.
richhotrain Are the Blackhawks still in it? LOL
Are the Blackhawks still in it? LOL
I do like their between-periods entertainers, the "Ice Crew." Say their name 5 times fast.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
davidmbedard P.S. For the sanity for the rest of us Canadians that live East of the Great Divide, I hope the 'Nucks choke. David B
NittanyLion I'm going to borrow this here thread because I'm working on the same argument in my head. The lack of a DC handheld throttle on the easy to obtain market has also pressed the issue for me. I like the EasyDCC for reasons I can't exactly put my finger on. I think its the throttle's size. I've heard that there's no easy (or possible?) way for that particular system to be integrated into a signaling system. Ultimately, years and years down the road, I'd like to have a functioning signal system. Is this a reasonable thing to fear? I don't know much about signals other than sensor of some sort detects train, signals do their thing, and I giggle like a little kid. Can signaling be done completely independent of the control system? I'd imagine it can and is.
I'm going to borrow this here thread because I'm working on the same argument in my head. The lack of a DC handheld throttle on the easy to obtain market has also pressed the issue for me.
I like the EasyDCC for reasons I can't exactly put my finger on. I think its the throttle's size. I've heard that there's no easy (or possible?) way for that particular system to be integrated into a signaling system. Ultimately, years and years down the road, I'd like to have a functioning signal system. Is this a reasonable thing to fear? I don't know much about signals other than sensor of some sort detects train, signals do their thing, and I giggle like a little kid. Can signaling be done completely independent of the control system? I'd imagine it can and is.
A few thoughts from a DC user who also uses (and helps install) DCC on a number of friends layouts.
First, Tom and Fred have covered the basic reasons to choose one over the other. If you like and want onboard sound, go DCC and skip all the rest of this discussion.
As for readily available hand held DC throttles, Aristo Craft makes a complete line of wireless radio DC throttles that are readily available and well supported by them.
I use the Aristo Craft 10 channel Train Engineer throttles as do several other DC users I know. They work very well and are reasomably priced.
They use pulse width modulation motor control (just like a DCC decoder) providing great slow speed, momentum if you want it, and great constant lighting. Their range is unmatched, I can run my trains from 50' outside my second floor garage train room.
As for signaling, virtually any method of signaling that has ever been used can be effectively used with DC or DCC and I would suggest that there is no specific advantage to using intergrated signaling with DCC.
DC on the other hand can easily be intergrated into a signal system to provide prototype "operating requirements" as Fred suggested earlier. Read the current article in Railroad Model Craftsman by Linn Moedinger for just one example of such a system - yes, there are still articles in the press about DC.
I have designed and built a DC cab selection system that eliminates allmost all "toggle flipping" and fully intergates cab selection, turnout control, interlocking and block signaling, and your choice of CTC or "engineer control" all with the use of the Aristo wireless radio throttles. At a much lower cost than it could be done in DCC. Cabs are assigned to track sections by a few pushbuttons, turnout positions and/or by the CTC dispatcher, making walk around operation by the engineers nearly identical to using DCC - if you desire prototype like CTC or ABS signaled operation.
Keep in mine, all advanced DC systems will require planning.
DISCLAIMER - I have no interest in onboard sound - onboard sound simply does not work with the equipment I use.
As for a DCC system, many of friends who use DCC, have Digitrax. It would not be my first choice in a DCC system. I too prefer the desgin of EasyDCC, on a number of levels, and actaully came very close to going that route.
DCC, in my opinion, and as Fred suggested, is for those who want to "be the Engineer" all or most of the time, sometimes without regard for how railroads actually operate. It does that job better than DC - no question.
DC or DCC can be a simple or complex as you need or want - but one fact remains with both - as layout size and desired features and operational modes increase, the complexity, cost and infrastructure required will increase with BOTH systems. All promotions that DCC is just "two wires" apply to small layouts or layouts without those additional features discussed above - in which case DC is likely only a few more than two wires.
DCC layouts with decoder controlled turnouts (or other advanced turnout routing and control), reverse loops, detection and signaling, CTC, hidden staging yards, complex interlocking trackage, or that are large enough to require multiple power districts, etc, all require just as much wire and hardware as their DC counterparts with those features.
Hi,
Obviously this topic has been talked up many times before, and most of us have some very definite opinions on the subject...............
I was in DC (HO) for decades and in rebuilding my layout 3 years ago, I switched to DCC. For an 11x15 two level layout with lots of locos, the cost was just over $2k. Of course I could have spent less (no second booster, no 8 circuit breakers, etc.), but I ended up with what suits me just fine.
DCC can be fairly simple, or very complicated - depending of course on your wants and needs. It is more sensitive to "dirty" track/wheels or poorly laid track, and trouble shooting can be difficult as opposed to DC.
However, DCC gives some real freedoms in operating multiple trains in the same area, and the easily controllable sounds available can be awesome.
While I would never go back to DC, I can't knock it for it does have a more "mechanical" simplicity (like comparing wiring a house to building a radio) and there are a lot of folks that prefer to stay away from electronic "stuff".
I would suggest that you visit some DCC layouts and get first hand exposure before you make a decision.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
HudsonRRWhile I do have an engineering background, I am still not certain of whether to go DCC or stay with DC.
I do not have many locos so that investment to convert is not great. My real question is, should one go DCC right from the start?
Don't forget to look at NCE systems.
I had the same questions you have, I was out of the hobby for twenty years and decided to get back into it last fall. All I ever knew was DC, the DCC world was a different universe to me. I also had 18 locomotives that were all DC and most of these were top of the line Locos when I purchased them. I posted almost the same question you did and finally decided about 5 months ago to go DCC. I was able to purchase three locos that were DCC at a great price, I selected the Digitrax Zephyr Extra DCC system, it is considered a starter system and very user friendly. I was running in DCC but really didn't think it was much different than DC, then I purchased a Atlas loco with DCC and sound and my whole view of my layout changed. I now had a real railroad, bells, horns, coupler clashing, screeching brakes, it felt like I was operating a real locomotive. I am glad I made the switch to DCC and have never regretted it.
You can add signaling to an EasyDCC system, it just has to be a third party seperate system, the two top choices being a standalone Loconet (no Digitrax parts needed although their signal controller is a prety good value) or Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system. Either operates independently of the EasyDCC other than the block detectors which have to detect current flow in the rails. I prefer the coil transformer type, with those you loop the feeder for the detection block through the sensor 'donut' but there is no actual electrical connection between the track and the rest of the block detection and signalling system. With the JMRI program you can build a dispatcher panel to control turnouts and signals via the Loconet or C/MRI, and still have the computer ALSO connected to the EasyDcc for programmign and to use WiThrottle to run trains via iPhone, iPod TOuch, or Android phone.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NittanyLion Can signaling be done completely independent of the control system? I'd imagine it can and is.
Can signaling be done completely independent of the control system? I'd imagine it can and is.
There are many have created independent signalling systems using the Digitrax loconet components even though they do not have a Digitrax command station. There are members of this forum that have done this with NCE and Digitrax for sure. No doubt some of them with chime in. There are other independent signalling systems available as well.
Jaddie What's the advantage of duplex DCC? Duplexing runs up the price of DCC quite a bit.
What's the advantage of duplex DCC? Duplexing runs up the price of DCC quite a bit.
The advantage of un-tethered wireless operation is freedom of movement. If you have a large walk-around layout, you can simply follow your train around, switch turnouts, uncouple cars etc. and not have to worry about cables. Remembering that most, but not all, tethered systems allow you to unplug and move to a new location and plug in again, while the trains keep moving. So wireless is a convenience thing for those that really like to be close to the action.
OK, so then there are choices of wireless operation.
Infra Red, the cheapest, but generally requires line of sight between the throttle and the receiver. This may cause issue with response to commands etc.
Simplex radio (Digitrax original radio, still available and a bit cheaper than duplex) a one way radio communication from the throttle to the receiver. The throttle must be plugged in for situations where a 2 way communication is needed, such as selecting another loco. Some consider this a real weakness of simplex radio as they don't want to have to plug in at all.
Duplex radio, full 2 way communication. You don't have to plug in at all, other than to perhaps register the throttle on a new layout for the first time. This provides total freedom of movement.
Indeed you are correct, the cost of systems increases from tethered, to IR, to Simplex, to Duplex. None of them are essential, it is purely convenience and if you don't see the value in the communication type then it is not essential to purchase it.
Most DCC system allow you to start simple with a tethered system and then add the components to go wireless later. Most also provide upgrade programs for throttles allowing them to be converted to wireless for a fee.
Dear Friends
tstage How big is your current layout? How much bigger will it get? How many locomotives do you plan on operating simultaneously? Will you be doing this "lone wolf" or will others be operating on your layout, too? Are you interested in sound? Signaling? Lighting effects? (e.g. Mars, gyro, ditch, etc.) Tom
A question I would add:
DCC excels in the follow areas (this from a DC user):
If some or all of the above 3 are not your priorities, DC can generally hold it's own. If a layout is fairly complex, a good DC installation (flexible, yet simple operations) will require some advance planning. Good walkaround DC throttles - except for the MRC Controlmaster 20 - are not sitting on your LHS shelves. They have to be built or ordered.
DCC on a fairly complex layout operating in Engineer mode does not require as much pre-planning. You will be putting together a system from a set of off-the-shelf components. One consequence of going DCC is that the natural tendency is to operate in VFR mode - aka "see and avoid" - when it comes to multiple trains on shared trackage. Disciplined, dispatched operation that is a natural result of DC wiring has to be imposed on DCC operating crews.
hope this helps your decision
Fred W
Good advice here.
I have a pretty small layout and run alone mostly (It must be me.)
But if you have a small layout and run alone, mostly, you can start with "starter set" like MRC Express (do your research first) for just over $100. Then you've got DCC and can use any of the features that you like...like, maybe sound. Also auto-reversing.
But that's just me.
Have fun,
First up welcome to the forum........
Is it safe to assume that you have some idea of what a DC controlled layout is, since presumably this is what you are currently using?
My question is, what have you read about DCC control? Are there things that appeal to you regarding the DCC control system? In other-words are you familiar and attracted to the "selling-points" or benefits of DCC?
I am, and I would not start a new layout that was not DCC. But I am not you.
DCC is not for everyone, and there are many experienced modellers on this forum that know well what DCC can do, and choose not to run their layouts with DCC. So you will get a bunch of opinions from ardent DCC followers and ardent DC followers.
My suggestion would be to read up on the subject and make your own informed decision.
If you want more specific advice, then it would be helpful to know more about your goal for you layout both now and in the future.
Size?, number of locos running at one time?, number of operators running trains at one time? Interest or not in sound locos? budget? etc
Good luck
HudsonRR My real question is, should one go DCC right from the start?
My real question is, should one go DCC right from the start?
That depends. A few questions will help to facilitate conversation:
Hudson, if you plan on utilizing some of the advantages that DCC offers then - yes, it makes sense to go with it from the start. However, if you plan on only operating one locomotive at a time...by yourself...and aren't interested in sound or lighting, I would just stick with DC.
My ...
I am fairly new to HO model railroading and am reconfiguring and expanding my layout. While I do have an engineering background, I am still not certain of whether go go DCC or stay with DC. I do not have many locos so that investment to convert is not great. My real question is, should one go DCC right from the start?