I apologize in advance if this has been asked and answered in the past, I searched the best I could and didn't find anything right on point. I have been using DC powered model equipment since about 2007, and have enjoyed it - but I have come to the point I want more out of my equipment. I am in the planning stages with my permanent layout, but am looking to get into DCC. I am looking for a system that will support my basic needs without needing an engineering degree, though I really don't want to have to change systems if I want to expand.
The basic things I want it to do out of the box:
Things I want to do in the future:
I am pretty impressed with both NCE and MRC's systems - I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard). Of course, I don't want to overdo it either - basically seek to be lighting a cigarette with a cruise missile, etc.
Since the world of DCC is kind of new to me, I figured I would pose this question here for people's insights into it. Last time I did any looking at DCC was in 2007 and systems cost a fortune back then.
Thanks in advance for the advice and pointers!
Only a couple comments before this devolves into an us vs them thread.
If you are thinking of a computer interface where a program like JMRI can communicate directly to your DCC system, I believe that this eliminates the MRC option.
Regarding speed tables, these are a capability or feature of the decoder that either comes installed in an engine or an aftermarket purchase you install yourself, not the DCC system itself.
Comrad_Durandal - I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard).
- I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard).
A commonly espoused opinion, though not one often expressed by actual Digitrax users. However I am pleased to know that my two boys 11 and 14 are geniuses though!
Too bad really, because Digitrax will do everything you want, with the expansion that you want and provide you with all the parts you need to accomplish an integrated detection and signalling system.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Comrad_Durandal I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard).
I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard).
You never heard that from a Digitrax user. Everything you need to know to get it up and running is right here:
http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/ZephyrXtraQuickstart.pdf
Notice that it is one page.
If you want the more sophisticated Super Chief, which is the one I have, then:
http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/superchiefxtra.pdf
The quick start guide is on page 7.
You shouldn't confuse what it CAN do with what it MUST do. The day will come when you want more capability. That is the day that you will regret buying a system because you thought it was easy and inexpensive.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
simon1966 Comrad_Durandal: - I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard). A commonly espoused opinion, though not one often expressed by actual Digitrax users. However I am pleased to know that my two boys 11 and 14 are geniuses though! Too bad really, because Digitrax will do everything you want, with the expansion that you want and provide you with all the parts you need to accomplish an integrated detection and signalling system.
Comrad_Durandal: - I know DigiTrax offers the most complex control solutions; with the downside being that you need to be a genius to figure the thing out (from what I've heard).
I should note that I didn't say I wouldn't even consider DigiTrax - I was only relaying what I heard, and why I initially didn't list them. The Zephyr unit was used on MRR's N scale build recently, and they use different throttles - is that complicated to do (use an NCE throttle with a DigiTrax system, etc.)
I didn't hope to go into this to start a holy war, mostly trying to see what people's take on the current options are, the strengths, the weaknesses, and see what people recommend based on what I am looking for.
No, you can't use throttles from other brands on anyone's system. But You can use any of the Digitrax throttles with the Zephyr. Any of the DT-400 series or the UT series will just plug in. If you add a UR series interface, which just plugs into the Loconet, then you can use the wireless throttles. There are different UR interfaces for Infrared, simplex radio, and duplex radio. If you want wireless, UR-92 and DT-402D or UT-4D is the way to go.
I imagine that if I drop the following desires:
Then that might open some other manufacturer's up for consideration? I will seriously look over the DigiTrax manuals and items, though I can tell you I am not a fan of their throttle (personal preference only). I only figured the wireless desire in there for larger setups, but I realize that I could always stop the trains, unplug, move, then replug myself in if I got too far - though since this will most likely be contained in a 10x10 room or less - I won't be travelling too far.
Look if you have personal experience with a throttle and don't particularly care for it, don't get it. The throttle is what you are going to use all the time, and if you don't like it, then it is going to be a constant irritant.
In your original post it read as if you had simply heard or read opinions from folks about the difficulty of the Digitrax system, and since myself, and many others with plenty of experience with Digitrax, don't subscribe to that view then you received some contrasting opinions.
If you really don't care about the PC interface then MRC would be a good consideration. The throttles can be unplugged and moved. I am of the opinion that whilst the MRC has a lowish starting price, that some of their peripheral bits are somewhat over priced. It certainly is easy to use, having used all 3, MRC, NCE and Digitrax, I would say MRC is the simplest to get going with. But none of them are particularly hard and anyone with a modicum of tech savvy is going to be happy running any of the systems. None of them are rocket science. If you are not running any of the systems inside 5 min there is something wrong with you.
If you want a PC interface, then IMO you have to drop MRC from consideration. Their failure to support JMRI DecoderPro is a real short-coming. I for one would not choose this system for this reason alone.
So what does that leave you with? NCE, excellent systems, well made, reliable, full featured. Some short comings with the entry level system, so you need to be sure how many throttles you want to have. In its base setup, you can not unplug the PowerCab throttle without the entire layout shutting down, but there are options you can get to eliminate that issue.
Beyond that, there is CVP, Lenz, the Bachmann Dynamis system all of which would meet your needs, so check them out on the web.
There's really only one commonly available int he US system that can do all that stuff in one system, and that's Digitrax. Loconet just does more than the other guys. The European alternative is ESU.
However, you can combine systems. MRC has nothign for detection and signalling, NCE's is somewhat limited. Many people with NCE run either a CHubb CMRI system or a Loconet system for the detection and signalling. A standalong Loconet system (Loconet accessories like block detectors and signal controllers) can be set up without using a Digitrax command station, or Digitrax throttles. In fact, it can be set up withotu using any products actually made by Digitrax - another beauty of Loconet - there are more third party manufacturers of compatible equipment for Loconet than any of the others. Companies like RR-CirKits, CML, and Team Digital all make detection and signal control equipment for Loconet. No Digitrax parts required. There are also several DIY solutions like Hans DeLoof's interface boards.
The whole myth of Digitrax being so complicated is really tired and weary. My kids are older than Simons, but they figured out how to run trains without even being shown. My younger one picked up the throttle and asked how to run a train, I told him you figure out out. It didn't take him long to figure out that you press the Loco button and then key in the cab number of the loco and press enter. You know, the exact same way EVERY OTHER DCC system works although instead of a 'loco' key they may have 'select' or 'engine'. My technically challenged ex father in law figureout out how to power on the railroad and start running trains after a couple of minutes of showing him which button to press to turn things on (the one labeled 'track power'). It's not hard, really. WHat's hard is setting up a realitically working block detection and signalling system. If you just want red and green lights to follow trains around, it's not too difficult, but to have proper interlocking and distant and intermediate signals with 3 colors and multiple aspects - that takes some effort, and not really in the wiring, but in developing the logic that says 'based on THESE conditions, set THAT signal to yellow over red."
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Comrad_DurandalThe basic things I want it to do out of the box: Sound control Switch, Lighting, and Accessory control Support for 4 digit addresses Continue to run without throttle attached Multi-unit control (consisting) Speed tables Operating auto-reverse sections Things I want to do in the future: Computer interface - Ethernet, USB, serial, etc. Wireless throttle support Allow for expansion in power supply to allow for larger layouts Block detection (empty, full) with signal light operation
The Block detection is not necessarily a function of DCC. Some DCC systems make components that can utilize the same DCC signal bus but they are still very separate things. In fact, our club uses the Digitrax signals but our DCC system is Lenz. Likewise I know of several layouts that use the CMRI signalling system with their DCC systems.
I think speed tables are best shown in software rather than the DCC unit itself.
Then also remember that many vendors DCC components can be intermixed. Our club uses CVP wireless throttles with the Lenz system, which is powered by Digitrax power units.
DCC is only as complicated and confusing as one makes it. Hook two wires from the command unit to the track, dial up channel 3 on the throttle, put the loco on the track and go. I get really tired of the people that go on and on about nits and nats that don't effect 95% of the normal users.
May I add to the mix? 78s, 45s, 33 and a 1/3rds, cassettes, 8-tracks, CDs, iTunes. All excellent in the their day but not one compatible with each other. How many times do I have to buy 'Stairway to Heaven'? My question would be will the system I purchase today be compatible ten years from now with upgraded equipment from the same manufacturer? Is every DCC system from MRC, NCE, Digitrax, or whomever, compatible with the one they previously released? This question would weigh heavily in my decision.
-Paul
Fastball May I add to the mix? 78s, 45s, 33 and a 1/3rds, cassettes, 8-tracks, CDs, iTunes. All excellent in the their day but not one compatible with each other. How many times do I have to buy 'Stairway to Heaven'? My question would be will the system I purchase today be compatible ten years from now with upgraded equipment from the same manufacturer? Is every DCC system from MRC, NCE, Digitrax, or whomever, compatible with the one they previously released? This question would weigh heavily in my decision. -Paul
Subtle way to eliminate MRC
Fastball My question would be will the system I purchase today be compatible ten years from now with upgraded equipment from the same manufacturer?
My question would be will the system I purchase today be compatible ten years from now with upgraded equipment from the same manufacturer?
I don't see how anyone could guarantee compatibility in 10 years since no one can guarantee that the manufacturer will still be around in 10 years.
At the Club we installed a Super Chief system in 1999, everything we purchased since or now was/is entirely compatible to that almost 12 years old system. I would say Digitrax pretty well fill the bill.
Jack W.
This notion of backwards compatibility is something that may or may not be important to someone? However, I think it is admirable that companies like Digitrax and NCE really do strive to make their customers investment last. Both are really quite small family run business' that have a strong commitment to customer satisfaction.
I like the fact that my 8 year old Zephyr can be updated with add-ons and works just fine with the latest duplex wireless release.
Likewise, I think it was admirable that NCE made great efforts to make good for folks that purchased the original smart booster for the PowerCab when they quickly replaced it with a new model.
Maybe the CAb unit is not complicated but programming functions for the decoder can be a nightmare with way too many steps. I have had to actuallyemail or call Digitrax and have them walk me through the steps for simple fuctions like a strobe/flashing light. Maybe I am stupid but have not had any problems with othe decoders which are more straight forward when it comes to programming functions.
Thank you Jack W. Past history will tell you a lot. Does a company make a product that every two years you throw the old out to buy new? Or does a company release new stuff that fits well with past systems while demonstrating that it still can keep up with evolving technology? That is the company you want to do business with. I understand not being able to look ten years in the future but at least give me something that I can expand in the future without having to buy all new. That's all I ask.
For complex decoder programming there is nothing better than a PC interface and Decoder Pro. It is so easy to set up real complex lighting patterns and other things that take a lot of steps when trying to program through a throttle. Once you switch to this application throttle based programming really only gets used for real quick things like DCC address. The good thing is that Decoder Pro works the same regardless of the DCC system you are connected to.
Except MRC. Again.