CSX Robert When someone talks about programming on the main with an Empire Builder, they are usually referring to service mode(either page, direct, or physical) programming, but since there is not a separate program track output, it is "on the main." Service mode programming on the Empire Builder is full power, without the limitations of ops mode programming. By the way, the Zephyr does support full power service mode programming through the use of what Digitrax calls "blast mode" programming. This is documented(although not thoroughly) in the Zephyr Xtra manual, and, though not documented, also supported by the original Zephyr.
When someone talks about programming on the main with an Empire Builder, they are usually referring to service mode(either page, direct, or physical) programming, but since there is not a separate program track output, it is "on the main." Service mode programming on the Empire Builder is full power, without the limitations of ops mode programming.
By the way, the Zephyr does support full power service mode programming through the use of what Digitrax calls "blast mode" programming. This is documented(although not thoroughly) in the Zephyr Xtra manual, and, though not documented, also supported by the original Zephyr.
Thank you. That clears it up. I took the liberty of underlining the part that was missing to me.
I also now understand someone in a thread elsewhere referring to the Zephyr in Blast Mode as a mini Empire Builder,
Thank you again.
Recovering former former model railroader.
SRN Don't the Zephyr and the Super Chief have the same full power when programming on the main? I still don't understand the benefit of the Empire Builder or the need to go to the club, when the modeler has a Zephyr or Super Chief at home, especially since the Empire Builder can't read back CVs. Enlighten me, please.
Don't the Zephyr and the Super Chief have the same full power when programming on the main? I still don't understand the benefit of the Empire Builder or the need to go to the club, when the modeler has a Zephyr or Super Chief at home, especially since the Empire Builder can't read back CVs.
Enlighten me, please.
Some of the confusion come from the use of the phrase "Programming on the main." There is no NMRA definition of programming on the main and it is not always used the same way. The more common definition of it is "Ops(operations) mode programming," but it is also sometimes used to refer to ops or service mode programming when done on a system that does not have a separate program track output.
When referring to programming on the main with a Chief or Zephyr, it is referring to Ops mode programming. It is full power, but it does have some limitations. I don't know if it is true for any current decoders, but I know some older ones do not support ops mode programming. Additionally, some decoders won't let you change the currently active address, and there may even be some that won't let you change the address at all.
The Super Chief and Zephyr do have full power when the engine is programed 'on the main'. The Super EB has full power either way. The point is that after installing a decoder in a new engine, I place it on the 'low power' programming track where I will not be able to destroy the decoder if I mixed up the wiring along the line. If you failed to isolate the motor or have a solder bridge - you just might 'fry' the decoder the first time you place on the 'full power' track! If your decoder hardware installs are always 'perfect' - then it is not an issue.
I also use an old computer that runs Decoder Pro(free) - and it is attached to the Digitrax Loconet. It is much easier to program a decoder than pressing all of those buttons on the throttle. Most folks purchasing a DCC system mention they have no need for a computer interface - Until they get frustrated trying to program an engine. They stop down at the club, and I usually have 'rescued' their engine in under 5 minutes. Now they understand what I am talking about!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier Full power to the track is the answer - the 'rub' is that you are applying full power when programming and if you have a bad decoder install, you have no way to 'test' the install before you put it on the powered track.
Full power to the track is the answer - the 'rub' is that you are applying full power when programming and if you have a bad decoder install, you have no way to 'test' the install before you put it on the powered track.
retsignalmtr I have the Super Empire Builder on my home layout and have never been unable to program any decoders with it, both N and HO. With my clubs Super Chief, we cannot program addresses with it on the programing track, but CV values can be programed on the main in the OP's mode. Just this past Wednesday I programed two atlas loco's at the club. Both loco's had DN163A0 decoders. One programed fine in pg mode. The other was done on po after trying pg and pd modes first? I don't know why. Someday I may sit down and try to figure it out but i'm doing too much at my club now as it is.
I have the Super Empire Builder on my home layout and have never been unable to program any decoders with it, both N and HO. With my clubs Super Chief, we cannot program addresses with it on the programing track, but CV values can be programed on the main in the OP's mode. Just this past Wednesday I programed two atlas loco's at the club. Both loco's had DN163A0 decoders. One programed fine in pg mode. The other was done on po after trying pg and pd modes first? I don't know why. Someday I may sit down and try to figure it out but i'm doing too much at my club now as it is.
I have SEB and have not trouble doing programming.. Just follow the manual and it should not be any problem.
SRN As one who is still trying to decide which DCC system to buy, the issue raised here puzzles me. Why would the Super Empire Builder be able to program a decoder, while the Super Chief and Zephyr can't? As I understand it, the Super Empire Builder lacks a specific output for a programming track, so programming must be done on the main (or an electrically switched programming track), What is different about the Super Chief and Zephyr that prevents them from programming their decoders on their own layouts in the same manner? Why do the members have to bring their locos to the club to use the Super Empire Builder? Thanks.
As one who is still trying to decide which DCC system to buy, the issue raised here puzzles me. Why would the Super Empire Builder be able to program a decoder, while the Super Chief and Zephyr can't? As I understand it, the Super Empire Builder lacks a specific output for a programming track, so programming must be done on the main (or an electrically switched programming track), What is different about the Super Chief and Zephyr that prevents them from programming their decoders on their own layouts in the same manner? Why do the members have to bring their locos to the club to use the Super Empire Builder?
Thanks.
Full power to the track is the answer - the 'rub' is that you are applying full power when programming and if you have a bad decoder install, you have no way to 'test' the install before you put it on the powered track. The other 'minus' is that you do not have decoder feedback with the Super EB. I would think that Digitrax would replace it with a new 'midrange' offering at some point. With the Zephyr or even the Super chief, you sometimes need a 'programming' booster for sound equipped engines. I have a Athearn MP15AC that would not program even with the programming booster. I wound up setting the address 'on the main' by hand calculating the CV's needed.
If I was looking to purchase a new DCC 'home' system, I would look at the current Zephyr - 3 amps of power and lots of big system features. And it is expandable....
Full power to the track is the answer - the 'rub' is that you are applying full power when programming and if you have a bad decoder install, you have no way to 'test' the install before you put it on the powered track. The other 'minus' is that you do not have decoder feedback with the Super EB. I would think that Digitrax would replace it with a new 'midrange' offering at some point. With the Zephyr or even the Super Chief, you sometimes need a 'programming' booster for sound equipped engines. I have a Athearn MP15AC that would not program even with the programming booster. I wound up setting the address 'on the main' by hand calculating the CV's needed.
retsignalmtr Several members of my club have the Zephyr or the Super Cheif and have problems using the programing track for programing. They usually bring their loco's to the club and use our Super Empire Builder to program on the main. We can;t even use the clubs Super Chief for programing. This includes even N scale loco's.. I have heard that a programing track booster may be necessary. It seems that using the programing track, less voltage is applied to the programing track to protect the decoder if something is wrong with the installation. Well there is something wrong if the programing track can't be used for programing at all.
Several members of my club have the Zephyr or the Super Cheif and have problems using the programing track for programing. They usually bring their loco's to the club and use our Super Empire Builder to program on the main. We can;t even use the clubs Super Chief for programing. This includes even N scale loco's.. I have heard that a programing track booster may be necessary. It seems that using the programing track, less voltage is applied to the programing track to protect the decoder if something is wrong with the installation. Well there is something wrong if the programing track can't be used for programing at all.
The Program A/B set of wires go to the programing track. No other wires should go to it. The Rail A/B wires go to the layout. I hope you have not damaged your Zephyr! You are running full power into the programing part of the unit - not good. You cannot run engines on the programing track. It is there so you have a safe way to program a decoder and not affect engines running on the main layout. his also keeps full power away from a new decoder install so you do not burn it up due to a wiring mistake.
I have my programming track at my work bench - not even connected to the layout. I also have an old computer attached to the Loconet so I can use JMRI Decoder Pro to program my engines - so much easier!
For a programing track I use just 1 piece of 3' flex track and connect the wires from Program A to one rail and Program B to the opposite of the programming track.
Now, the Rail A and B wires go directly to the layout and should not connect to the programming track. Could cause something bad to happen. If you have all 4 wires going to the programming track, remove the wires from Rail A and B immediately and connect those as stated above to your layout.
Hope this help.
NEVER CONNECT THE PROGRAM OUT AND THE TRACK OUT TO THE SAME TRACK; EVEN MOMENTARILY!
If both sets of outputs are connected to the same rails you may have fried the program section of the Z.
Is there a Digitrax person in here who can answer that for him?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
On my programing track, I have a wire for each rail, one wire goes to program A and the other to program B on the digitrax. I also have another set of wires attached to the rails. One wire goes to Rail A and the other wire to rail B connection on the Digitrax. Should I disconnect the wires to the digitrax connection labeled Rail A & B ? I have yet to connect the Digitrax to my main layout. I wanted to program the loco's before hooking up to the main layout
I have a Digitrax Super Chief and I have never had a problem programing any decoder on the program track.
I, too, was concerned by the description of how the program track is wired. It is not really clear, but it sure sounds like it is wired to both outputs. I hope I am wrong.
woodman,
Your programming track should be completely electrically isolated from the rest of the layout. You should only have the two wires from your programming terminals of your Zephyr feeding power to your programming track.
In programming track mode, less current is sent to the programming track via the programming terminals because:
I would also encourage you to spend some time reading up on DCC and your Zephyr manual. You'll save yourself both money and frustration.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
woodmanBesides the programing wires coming off the track to the Digitrax, I also have power wires coming off the track and I attached them to the Digitrax.
This sentence has me worried. Are you saying that you have the "programming wires" and the "power wires" connected to the SAME track?
That won't work, and will likely cause damage to your Zephyr. There should NEVER be a connection between your programming outputs and your power outputs.
Have you tried programming it on your layout track? Also did you make sure you are in PAGE mode for programming? I have the Digitrax Super Empire Builder and I know I have similar problem when I was in the wrong mode from programming.
I set up a separate programing track for my DigitraxZephyr Xtra. Besides the programing wires coming off the track to the Digitrax, I also have power wires coming off the track and I attached them to the Digitrax. The powers are in rail A & B, the programming wires are in Prog A & B. I can program the locos for 03, but when I try to program the engine 4digit road number I keep getting dnr message. Should I disconnect the power wires to the Digitrax to program the engines. As I stated before I know less than nothing about DCC.