The original post dealt with only Tsunami and Digitrax Zephyr.
I have used only Tsunami Soundtrax decoders and only the Zephyr Extra DC51.
I put the Zephyr in permanent blast mode. (whether it needs it or not)
I OPS mode program only.
At every write of a CV, all such equipped engines respond with a motor lurch. Sometimes, the engine jerks other times you only get a motor torque sound against the gearing. 99% lurch a bit
You should follow the instructions on the Digitrax site for large number decoder address changes.
For numbers under 100 (2 digit) you can simply follow the instructions for changing the address in the Zephyr manual without wandering around through the Tsunami's CVs.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Hello ,
I am Z-scaler and drive the Hallmark Union Pacific Turbine in Z. I tried to programe the Soundtraxx TSU750 for this loco with Digitrax DCS 51 . You have to change the switch 7 from T to C, than the DCS 51 has more power . You dont need the PTB 100 . Now you can change adresses and all .
Regards, from Germany visit : www.rolfs-lokschuppen.de
Maybe it is the system that makes the units jerk (move).
I use a NCE Power Cab and JMRI. I do a lot of sound installs, and use the Tsunami as a decoder for the sound installs. With this set up the loco will jerk or move a bit with each CV change.
Now this this not just one or two units, I have installed well over 500 decoders ( not all Tsunamis) but I know I see this movement in my installs. Maybe I missed one? But I can't recall not seeing one jerk with a CV change. I will be watching real close on my next installs to see if one does NOT move.
TA462 cmarchan: There are many here new to DCC. Its important to take care when giving advice; and I say this to all who read this: Some of us are hobbyists with some installation experience, some of us have extensive electronic background experience that goes beyond the scope of this hobby. I have read a lot on this forum that taken out of context could be misconstrued as the absolute truth. This is a dangerous practice. It is great that everyone contributes and shares their experiences. But to dismiss a real condition because you have not experienced it is not fair to those trying to learn. DCC devices are many and their behavior differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Also, you have the different scales (N, HO, G, etc) different systems, different environments (Florida creates problems for electronics not seen in the Northeast for example). I simply ask everyone to keep your mind open, listen to the experience of others and contact the manufacturers if you have doubt. I agree with your first statement 100%. I'm not trying to dismiss anything though. I consider myself very informed on anything Digitrax related and I don't have the first clue about any other DCC operating system. If it has happened with anything Digitrax related then I've probably seen it. I have in my possesion probably over 150 loco's, all have decoders except for maybe a dozen. I've literally installed over 500 decoders for myself, clients and club members and have never seen a loco jump or surge while being programmed. That is a fact. Don't think I'm trying to dismiss it, I am curious to know why? I've searched around on the Digitrax forum and couldn't even find anything on the subject. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it doesn't happen to me.
cmarchan: There are many here new to DCC. Its important to take care when giving advice; and I say this to all who read this: Some of us are hobbyists with some installation experience, some of us have extensive electronic background experience that goes beyond the scope of this hobby. I have read a lot on this forum that taken out of context could be misconstrued as the absolute truth. This is a dangerous practice. It is great that everyone contributes and shares their experiences. But to dismiss a real condition because you have not experienced it is not fair to those trying to learn. DCC devices are many and their behavior differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Also, you have the different scales (N, HO, G, etc) different systems, different environments (Florida creates problems for electronics not seen in the Northeast for example). I simply ask everyone to keep your mind open, listen to the experience of others and contact the manufacturers if you have doubt.
There are many here new to DCC. Its important to take care when giving advice; and I say this to all who read this: Some of us are hobbyists with some installation experience, some of us have extensive electronic background experience that goes beyond the scope of this hobby. I have read a lot on this forum that taken out of context could be misconstrued as the absolute truth. This is a dangerous practice.
It is great that everyone contributes and shares their experiences. But to dismiss a real condition because you have not experienced it is not fair to those trying to learn. DCC devices are many and their behavior differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Also, you have the different scales (N, HO, G, etc) different systems, different environments (Florida creates problems for electronics not seen in the Northeast for example). I simply ask everyone to keep your mind open, listen to the experience of others and contact the manufacturers if you have doubt.
I agree with your first statement 100%. I'm not trying to dismiss anything though. I consider myself very informed on anything Digitrax related and I don't have the first clue about any other DCC operating system. If it has happened with anything Digitrax related then I've probably seen it. I have in my possesion probably over 150 loco's, all have decoders except for maybe a dozen. I've literally installed over 500 decoders for myself, clients and club members and have never seen a loco jump or surge while being programmed. That is a fact. Don't think I'm trying to dismiss it, I am curious to know why? I've searched around on the Digitrax forum and couldn't even find anything on the subject. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it doesn't happen to me.
Thanks for being honest and candid; your experiences show that not all locomotives are effected by this situation.
I will add something to the mix here. The programming current may differ between Digitrax command station/booster units and/or revisions. Later Zephyr units (DCS50), for example, behave differently than the earliest models. Also, some people are using programming boosters, like the PowerPax from DCC Specialities, allowing greater output current, thereby increasing the output pulse.
Also, some decoders will acknowledge without using the motor circuit; the "lurch" does not occur in these cases.
Like Randy mentioned, for the "standard, (Digitrax, NCE, TCS) decoder" , movement is seen at the motor, removing the shell reveals it.
Also, the pulse can aid in troubleshooting after installation. I've seen several locos where the owner mentioned that fails to "read back". Upon inspection, a broken or loose wire to the motor was the culprit.
To test this, disconnect the motor wires on a DCC locomotive with a standard decoder and try to read any CV; it will fail to read back.
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
Remind me, I'll post a video. Many of mine do not move at all, there's a bit of an audible sound, bu tno visible movement. Other give a slight jerk but after many CVs still haven't made any progress forwards or backwards. But some do move a good bit. That's when being programmed with a Digitrax system but for the most part not Digitrax decoders. Apaert from a Soundbug I don;t have any Digitrax decoders, mine are almost all TCS except for a couple steam locos with Loksound, a diesel with a Soundtraxx LC, and a diesel with a Tsunami.
Now that I think about it, it's not the Tsunami one that tries to run away, I noticed it AFTER I set up my new computer and test track for JMRI, and I haven't done any programming with the Tsunami since then - plus it's drawbar connected to the A unit so at the moment I'd have to program them both together. I can replicate it though, the loco that moves is going to be the only one currently in the JMRI roster on that computer.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker If you really want to see the lurch, program the loco with the shell off. If the motor is in the least bit visible, or at least the flywheel, you should see it pulse. There may be enough slop in the drive train that the loco doesn't physically move. ALso some decoders seem to alternate the polarity of the pulse so the loco doesn;t creep constantly in one direction. It is indeed highly dependent on how efficient the motor is, as well as drive train itself. Some locos don't seem to move so much as a millimeter, others can move a few inches when doing lots of reads. Somethign to keep in mind when building a program track intot he layout - a loco can easily creep up and cross the isolation gaps, linking the program track to the layout and either programmign everything on the track or connecting track power to the program track outputs and possibly damaging the command station. Hence the idea of a dead section between the program track and main - the loco will creep into the dead section and eventually stop responding to program commands before it bridges to the main. --Randy
If you really want to see the lurch, program the loco with the shell off. If the motor is in the least bit visible, or at least the flywheel, you should see it pulse. There may be enough slop in the drive train that the loco doesn't physically move. ALso some decoders seem to alternate the polarity of the pulse so the loco doesn;t creep constantly in one direction.
It is indeed highly dependent on how efficient the motor is, as well as drive train itself. Some locos don't seem to move so much as a millimeter, others can move a few inches when doing lots of reads. Somethign to keep in mind when building a program track intot he layout - a loco can easily creep up and cross the isolation gaps, linking the program track to the layout and either programmign everything on the track or connecting track power to the program track outputs and possibly damaging the command station. Hence the idea of a dead section between the program track and main - the loco will creep into the dead section and eventually stop responding to program commands before it bridges to the main.
Nicely said Randy.
To add to that, for example, if you use Decoder Pro (JMRI) and program the seven band equalizer of a Tsunami decoder in OPS mode, I've watched many a locomotive "walk" down the track moving for each band change.
TA462 I just finished up two more customer installations, simple plug and play DH123PS decoders into Atlas C424's and no movement. All I install is Digitrax decoders and use my old Zephyr to program. I spoke to a few people I know and they've never had a loco jump or move in any way either, especially an inch.
I just finished up two more customer installations, simple plug and play DH123PS decoders into Atlas C424's and no movement. All I install is Digitrax decoders and use my old Zephyr to program. I spoke to a few people I know and they've never had a loco jump or move in any way either, especially an inch.
My Tsunami loco runs about halfway down my test track if I do read all sheets in JMRI - that's using a PR3. I never changed more than the address on the Zephyr program track and I don;t think it moved, or if it tried to it was held back by the A unit which has a TCS decoder in it.
On the chance that I will be blasted ( pun intended ) again I have read back the CV's on my Blueline F7A ( sound ) with a NCE-D14SR mobile decoder using the older Zephyr ( DCS-50 ) and "PowerPax". Upon pressing the CV-RD button the headlights, cablight and number board lights flash once. They do this for each CV read.
My Mantua 4-6-2 Pacific with MRC sound/mobile decoder # 1823 ( horible decoder ) will jerk forward ( maybe a quarter of a driving wheel ) and flash the head light when programing CV-1 on the program track again using the "PowerPax" as it will not program nor read without using "PowerPax", and I did not know of OpSw7 at the time on the DCS-50.
DCS-50 will read back CV-1 ( I dial in "AD4" instead of CV-1 ) But with no jerking.
That's all that I have that will behave like this on the program track.
I do like QSI decoders that tell you what the CV is programed to upon OPS mode programing.
Wadda ya mean I'm old ? Just because I remember gasoline at 9 cents a gallon and those big coal burning steamers.
I only noticed my Soundtrax Tsunami decoder equipted loco lurched when it acknowledged a program change on my Zephyr. My Digitrax decoders do not lurch at all when programed. I also saw the same lurch acknowledgement on a Utube Atlas Tsunami install video. I did not think it would happen and when I programed mine and it did in fact lurch I thought I had messed something up until I remembered the Utube video which showed the same effect.
May be something about the Soundrax Tsunami sound decoders which does not show up on other decoders.
In my limited experience I've noticed that different loco decoder combinations behave differently when programming on my Zephyr. Some don't move and others do. I've never observed the lights flashing.
Joe
Randy et al:
Thanks for the reminder about using the blast mode. I was aware of the reason for the amps limited program track and would never use POM or the higher power of blast mode until I was absolutely sure that the decoder was installed correctly and then I would check it one more time. My experience to date has been much like Randy's - no problem programming TCS, Digitrax and QSI decoders the standard way. That is why I was so frustrated with the Tsunami. Since I found a solution to the problem without having to resort to blast mode I think that I will leave it for the very last resort for a troublesome Tsunami. By the way, I had a fun afternoon with the newly programmed engine and was impressed by the sound. However, I think that I like my Atlas QSIs more.
Always a good idea. Blast mode defeats one purpose of the program track, which is keeping the current low. Normal program track operation (except on a DB150) is current limited enough not to damage a decoder that is impropely installed. But a decoder with a track to motor lead short, which would pretty much instantly destroy it on the main, won;t program. So you can find and fix the problem when the current is low enough not to permentnatly fry it.
Something to beware of though. The idea of using a program track after a decoder install is that if something is wired wrong you find out without damaging the decoder. With full track power I could see the possibility of the decoder getting damaged. For new installs I'd suggest turning blast mode off and only use it for loco's that have been run on normal track power at least once.
Springfield PA
I hope you read this before you tried Blast Mode - Blast Mode puts the program output signal on BOTH the main track outputs and the program track outputs, so DO NOT have any locos on the main, or better yet disconnect the wires going to the main track before using blast mode.
I still can;t figure out why I was able to program my Tsunami on my Zephyr's program track using normal programming methods, no blast mode, no booster. It just simply worked, although I was using my DT400 not the Zephyr console. Short, fairly heavy wires to the program track, and a clean piece of track..
Peter and Jack:
Thanks for clarifying the blast mode issue for me. This has been an interesting learning episode for me. I am happy to report that I have solved my address problem. Since the loco would only recognize address 3 I used that and entered OPS mode. I set CVs 17 and 18 individually to their appropriate hex converted decimal values and then CV 29 to a value of 34. After exiting program mode I called up the 4 digit address and the loco responded normally giving me control over all commands. I am now the owner of a very nicely performing loco. This has been an interesting learning experience for me and I really appreciate all the help that the forum members have given me. As an aside I found the following on how to program a sound decoder with a Zephyr. It involves Tower 55 locos with sound decoders (Brand?) it turns out to be the process I followed. It is found on the Digitrax site. http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/tower55/T55%20Tech%20Bulletin%202.1.pdf
Thanks again everybody and now I'm going to go and play with trains.
CNR378 JoeinPA: Jack: Can you clear something up for me concerning Blast Mode programming? Do you use the program track or is it POM? In case I need to resort to this method I want to do it properly. Joe Joe Blast mode programming is for use on the programming track. It essentially puts full power on the track. Peter
JoeinPA: Jack: Can you clear something up for me concerning Blast Mode programming? Do you use the program track or is it POM? In case I need to resort to this method I want to do it properly. Joe
Jack:
Can you clear something up for me concerning Blast Mode programming? Do you use the program track or is it POM? In case I need to resort to this method I want to do it properly.
Blast mode programming is for use on the programming track. It essentially puts full power on the track.
Peter
Exactly, blast is only for the programming track.
Jack W.
JoeinPA Jack: Can you clear something up for me concerning Blast Mode programming? Do you use the program track or is it POM? In case I need to resort to this method I want to do it properly. Joe
jalajoie rockislandnut: The OPS first post shows he has the Zephyr ( DCS 50 ) which does not have OpSw7 which is "Blast Mode" incorporated in the new Zephyr-Xtra ( DCS51 ). It states in both DCS50 & DCS51 Manuals: Quote: Do not change any option switches not listed in the table below. Unquote. That table is on page 50 for the Zephyr DCS50 and page 55 for the Zephyr-Xtra. The OpSw7 is NOT listed in the older Zephyr manual. Don't believe me? Ask Digitrax. Snipe....... OK I'm off my You are expressing your point loud and clear, however my own opinion is to the contrary. I use DCC almost daily since 1999 with both NCE and Digitrax systems, I also own a Digitrax Zephyr since 2001, I have programmed over 150 DCC decoders of any kind, including Bachman EOM. In all those years I programmed address on the Programming Track and on the Main without any problem to the DCC systems or the locos and without creating havoc to any other locos on the layout. My Zephyr in blast mode don't need a power booster, in fact I do have a Power Pax but I don't even know where it is in my house. I wonder how someone can program a long address on an MTH loco without using POM, their locos will not program on a programming track. First generation Zephyr definitely have blast mode, it is not documented that is all.
rockislandnut: The OPS first post shows he has the Zephyr ( DCS 50 ) which does not have OpSw7 which is "Blast Mode" incorporated in the new Zephyr-Xtra ( DCS51 ). It states in both DCS50 & DCS51 Manuals: Quote: Do not change any option switches not listed in the table below. Unquote. That table is on page 50 for the Zephyr DCS50 and page 55 for the Zephyr-Xtra. The OpSw7 is NOT listed in the older Zephyr manual. Don't believe me? Ask Digitrax. Snipe....... OK I'm off my
The OPS first post shows he has the Zephyr ( DCS 50 ) which does not have OpSw7 which is "Blast Mode" incorporated in the new Zephyr-Xtra ( DCS51 ). It states in both DCS50 & DCS51 Manuals: Quote: Do not change any option switches not listed in the table below. Unquote. That table is on page 50 for the Zephyr DCS50 and page 55 for the Zephyr-Xtra. The OpSw7 is NOT listed in the older Zephyr manual.
Don't believe me? Ask Digitrax. Snipe.......
OK I'm off my
You are expressing your point loud and clear, however my own opinion is to the contrary.
I use DCC almost daily since 1999 with both NCE and Digitrax systems, I also own a Digitrax Zephyr since 2001, I have programmed over 150 DCC decoders of any kind, including Bachman EOM.
In all those years I programmed address on the Programming Track and on the Main without any problem to the DCC systems or the locos and without creating havoc to any other locos on the layout. My Zephyr in blast mode don't need a power booster, in fact I do have a Power Pax but I don't even know where it is in my house.
I wonder how someone can program a long address on an MTH loco without using POM, their locos will not program on a programming track.
First generation Zephyr definitely have blast mode, it is not documented that is all.
TA462 I don't program in OPS mode. I have a dedicated programming track. I see the lights flash and hear the decoder clicking when I program but I've never seen a loco jump or surge.
I don't program in OPS mode. I have a dedicated programming track. I see the lights flash and hear the decoder clicking when I program but I've never seen a loco jump or surge.
That is actually the motor you hear, and what sometimes make the loco move during programming.
Try to read all CV´s on a ESU loksound without the loco moving at least an inch.......
ALL decoders need the motor to be able to receive programming, that is why the decoder test benches (ESU and others) have a motor on it to make it work.
BTW, the OP stated he had trouble setting an adress, and that is impossible to do in POM (OPS) mode. You have to do it in "Direct-mode" if i recall correctly.
I have never managed to program the adress on a Tsunami on the program-track. I do it with my computer interface, and then it works.....
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Jack is correct. The DCS50 does have Blast mode (OpSw7).
This is an undocumented feature that people have been using for a long time. Now Digitrax is using it as a selling feature for the DCS51.
rockislandnut The OPS first post shows he has the Zephyr ( DCS 50 ) which does not have OpSw7 which is "Blast Mode" incorporated in the new Zephyr-Xtra ( DCS51 ). It states in both DCS50 & DCS51 Manuals: Quote: Do not change any option switches not listed in the table below. Unquote. That table is on page 50 for the Zephyr DCS50 and page 55 for the Zephyr-Xtra. The OpSw7 is NOT listed in the older Zephyr manual. Don't believe me? Ask Digitrax. Snipe....... OK I'm off my
woodone It is hard to belive that you have programmend that many locos and never seen what is call a acknowledgement pluse. Are you programming in ops mode? I never program in ops mode so maybe you don't see in there in ops mode.
It is hard to belive that you have programmend that many locos and never seen what is call a
acknowledgement pluse. Are you programming in ops mode?
I never program in ops mode so maybe you don't see in there in ops mode.
The acknowledement pulse is a result of the decoder referencing the motor when programming. You should usually see it on both ops and program track mode.
Woodone:
I have seen the acknolwledgement pulse on both the program track and on the main. And when using Decoder Pro I also see the changes go from orange to red to white but the address problem remained. So far, I have been able to get back to factory defaults and set several CVs using OPS mode but when I try to set the address I always get a non-responsive loco. The only way to recover is to use address 0 and OPS mode to do a CV 8 reset. I'm going to try David Bedard's method for the long address this afternoon.
I sometimes see them in OPS mode as well, but only on some types of decoders.
Don't believe me? Ask Digitrax.
I have both the Zephyr and the Zephyr-Xtra and the so called "Blast Mode" is as phony as a three dollar bill, at least in my unit. I even sent the Zephyr-Xtra back to Digitrax, they sent it back with no explanation. I had to call them and they explained when programing the address of any Tsunami decoder to use the OpSw7 and set to C. That was a malfunction on my Zephyr-Xtra and did not work. So I said the He!! with it and put the Zephyr-Xtra back in the box.
I'm supposed to send it back again and maybe ( yes just maybe ) they will replace the DCS51.
My older Zephyr ( DCS50 ) about five years old with the aid of "PowerPax" on the program track writes and reads the six QSI sound, one BLI BlueLine sound and my three Tsunami sound decoders with no hiccups at all. The display on the Zephyr will blink 2 to 4 times then display the reading. Note: Some people use a one thousand ohm 1/4 or 1/2 watt resistor across the program track rails tricking the Zephyr into giving a little more juice to program the tsunami and other sound decoders. Personally I've just used the "PowerPax" and it does work just fine.
A Digitrax Tech told me definitely do not program any decoder ( sound or non-sound ) to their address on the main using OPS mode and that includes using 00. Only use the program track for address.
Tech also told me to use OpSw7 and click on "C" and that would give the Zephyr-Xtra the extra power to program a Tsunami, BUT only on the program track and he did emphasize never the main line for address mode programing.
Contrary to what the Digitrax Technician told me I have seen a few times on this forum ( not just this thread ) to use OPS mode then use 00 to set your decoders address, BAD mistake but go ahead if you want for it's your controller and decoder.
I know that I have typed a couple things here more than once but some of you skip read a post and do not get the point ( yes I've done the same thing ).
Also just because I may have a bad Zephyr-Xtra does not mean they are all bad but I am seriously thinking of trashing mine, not worth another $12.00 UPS for maybe a replacement Zephyr-Xtra.
Hope that I have not hurt anyone's feelings as I was just trying to get a point across that I feel has been abused lately.
Maybe now that you have it reset it will behave. The blast mode should help as well.
Also note that you don't have to have read back of the CV's for them to program. Sometimes there's plenty of power to program but not quite enough to get a read back.