I don't know that anyone thinks DCC is required to run multiple units. The big myth is that they must run in lockstep perfectly matched at each and every speed to be MUed. Or that you need to do that for DCC whereas with DC it didn;t matter. Truth being, close is good enough for DC or DCC.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Sheldon, thank you for that last post as a lot of that I did not know and I used to be a DC modeler for over 30 years until 12 years ago when I changed to DCC. My DCC layout is very small compared to yours as since it was a new layout and I did not have any more DC of anything left ( 6 year gap ) I started it out with DCC.
You people have a lot of good advice DC or DCC ( even If I get grumpy and disagree sometimes ) so this old 75 year old says keep up the good work.
Wadda ya mean I'm old ? Just because I remember gasoline at 9 cents a gallon and those big coal burning steamers.
rockislandnut ATLANTIC CENTRAL: pulled by two steam locos or 3-4 first generation diesels - all units powered. Sheldon Sheldon as you run DC on your layout my question is about your running 3 or 4 diesels. How do you keep them running coupled to each other at the same speed? In other words do you have to re-gear each loco so it runs at the same speed as the next?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: pulled by two steam locos or 3-4 first generation diesels - all units powered. Sheldon
pulled by two steam locos or 3-4 first generation diesels - all units powered.
Sheldon
Sheldon as you run DC on your layout my question is about your running 3 or 4 diesels. How do you keep them running coupled to each other at the same speed? In other words do you have to re-gear each loco so it runs at the same speed as the next?
rockislandnut,
Nothing is regeared, only a rare few are rewired. As Randy pointed out, locos need not run at exactly the same speed to successfully double head or "MU" them. Most of my diesels are sets of "matched units" because of the era I model and what was common practice at that time - examples - EMD F3 ABBA set, ALCO FA1 - ABBA set, or 3-4 EMD GP7's, etc. In those early days sets of diesels like that stayed coupled and were treated as a single "locomotive", especially since it took about 3 F3's to equal a Mikado or four to equal a Berkshire.
BUT, as you will see explained below, I even double or triple head steam locos of mixed brands and wheel arrangements.
As long as they are close in speed and starting voltage, it usually works fine. I don't want to start a DCC vs DC debate any more than this thread has already become, but it is a myth that you NEED DCC to run multiple powered units.
Sure some combinations simply will not run together, but in many cases those are combinations that likely would have never been done in real life anyway. And yes, some brands of diesels have wildly different gear ratios from others making those combinations not a good idea. But it seems like common sense to me, DCC or DC, to buy all the same brand where possible for diesel locos that will be run in sets.
Admittedly, I don't model modern, current day railroading, and I have little knowledge or interest in todays mixed lashups of sd70 whatevers and such. But for modeling the age of steam and early diesels, MU operations are quite easy with DC.
The following is part of a post (with a few edits) from another thead a few weeks ago addressing this topic and gaving specific info about my fleet.
Regarding MU and double heading with DC:
I model 1953-54, my railroad, and many protoytypes in that time period, still ran diesels pretty much as matched sets.
However, fact is all the following locos have basicly the same drive and will run together fine - Early to mid production Proto2000 BL2, GP7, GP9 (actually most all the GP series, but the rest are out of my era), and ALCO FA1 & FA2. I have about 50 various types of these Proto locos, they all run together fine.
All Athearn Genesis F units have the same drive, so F3's and F7's readily interchange - that's about as much mixing as most prototypes were doing in 1954.
As for the steam, it is trial and error - BUT most manufacturers are using similar gear ratios - so locos with similar sized drivers often run fine together - regardless of brand.
I will restate the matchups I regularly use - Proto2000 2-8-8-2 with any of the following: Spectrum 2-6-6-2, Bachmann 2-8-4 (now 2-8-2's on my railroad), Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's - and all of these will run with my BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's.
Actually at that point we have covered a large section of my loco fleet because it is made up of multiple copies of a select list of wheel arrangements and types.
With a little careful throttle work at startup, Spectrum 2-8-0's can be run with any or all of the steam listed above.
The above listed steam locos represent a total of 26 pieces.
Now we are left with only a few more steamers, two Spectrum 10 wheelers and three various Pacifics usually run alone on local passenger trains, two Reading T-1 Northerns, a 2-6-6-6 and a 2-6-6-4 that don't need helpers or doubles, and some switchers.
So out of 38 steam locos, 26 of them can be grouped in double or triple headers at will without reguard for brand or wheel arrangement. and other matched sets like the 10 wheelers or Northerns can obviously be run together if needed.
Works fine for my needs.
Somewhere along the line, we have started equating something you CAN do with somethign you HAVE to do. Not sure who or where this started. Yes, with DCC you can fine tune the exact speed a given locos runs on every individual speed step. But this is absolutely NOT required to be able to successfully MU locos. With variable DC to the rails, we never did this - there was the occasional article on adding some diodes to slow down a particularly fast loco, but for the most part you put them on the track and they just ran. Unless you used all-metal couplers and they were a pair of Athearns back to back - which is still an issue with DCC. It is absolutely NOT true that two or more locos must run EXACTLY in lockstep to work well in a consist - DC or DCC. Close is good enough.
I run two to three diesels on DC all the time.If they run the same speed or close you are all right.
Russell
ATLANTIC CENTRAL pulled by two steam locos or 3-4 first generation diesels - all units powered. Sheldon
Steamnut,
I'm not assuming anything, I'm responding to your comments. You NEVER stated what you use or do ot use, but you did suggest that DCC would be cheaper than the TE. Not a valid comparison without the DCC being wireless.
I did not bring up the Aristo Train Engineer in this thread - Randy did.
I simply responded to your incorrect information regarding its features and availablity, and then offered an open invitation IF the OP was interested. Actually, I would have recommended the same throttle you did for a non wireless list of goals.
I agree completely that not all layouts need wireless any more than all layouts need DCC.
But to compare a non wireless DCC system to the TE is not a valid comparison as the whole point of the TE is wireless control. The additional infrastructure for multiple train operation need not be complex or expensive if you do not need or want signaling. But I do agree, simple "two train" operation using two TE's would be about the same cost as wireless DCC with a SMALL loco fleet. It is when you get to my 8 train operation with 130 locs and signaling that DCC becomes VERY expensive.
Again, re-read MY posts, I never suggested the TE to the OP, only corrected your mis-information about the TE and offered more info to anyone interested.
"BTW why do you have 130 locomotives"
My layout, currently under construction, will have when complete, staging for 25-30 trains. Typical freight train length is 35-45 cars, pulled by two steam locos or 3-4 first generation diesels - all units powered.
30 trains x 3 units per train = 90 locomotives, plus switchers, extra power for power changes during operating sessions, etc. The planned operations also require about 800 freight cars and 120 passenger cars.
The layout is double decked and fills a 24 x 40 purpose built room. When complete there will be about 8 scale miles of double track mainline, an 1800 scale foot long freight yard, full engine terminal, seperate belt line for the industrial area, and a single track branch line with an 3-4 scale mile route.
There will be a simplified CTC system, local tower panels at all interlockings and the layout will support display operation of 6 trains or "operating sessions" with up to 8 operators, dispatcher, yard master, etc.
So, to operate it, 130 locos is actually rather conservative.
Hello SHeldon,
I responded to your prior post before seeing this one.
So first of all, you are assuming that I am DCC and/or a DCC "advocate". Neither are true.
On your side you are assuming that wireless is the be-all-and-end-all. I have a modestly larger space than the OP's 2x8 but even so I have no interest in the upcharge for wireless.
And I repeat, that if you want to run more than one loco in the same electrical section, TE is not an economically practical solution for this. Maybe not a technically practical solution either but I have no basis for sitting on judgment on that.
BTW why do you have 130 locomotives?
Regards,
Steamnut
Sheldon, thank you for your reply and comments but first of all you are missing a fundamental fact. I am NOT DCC and if you read my post CAREFULLY you will see that. You DC folks- of which I technically am one but disasscoiate myself from much of the DC posts - are always feeling overly sensitive.
As for wireless, I repeat - the OP was asking for advice on a small switching layout that has NO need for wireless.
steamnut,
Some more info/thoughts,
Let's assume a specific set of goals, similar to those of the OP, but let's add the desire for wireless and to not be tethered or have a fixed throttle location like Digitrax Zephyr.
One Aristo TE and a 4 amp power supply, no more than $250. No decoders needed. Locos not in use can be isolated with power routing turnouts or simple inexpenive on/off switches to specified sidings/areas.
Here is link to the power supply use: http://www.claysradioshop.com/pyr-ps4kx.html
I paid even less for mine, from a different vender and bought about 20 for myself and a friend all at the same time - about $20 each.
Cheapest Digitrax radio wireless system - Super Empire Builder Radio - $460 at Tony's, plus let's say just five non sound decoders at $15 each - $535 - more than twice as much, just for the privledge of being able to address each loco.
Again, DCC has it's place but it is not the only answer and is often the most expensive answer.
The specific needs and wants of each operator, and the specific design and goals of each layout need to be considered in chosing control systems.
You view assumes some benefit to having two locos moving at the same time in close proximity to each other. If that is a stated goal, DCC is the answer hands down, especailly on a small layout. But if not, and if sound control is not wanted, many DC choices abound at much lower cost.
One other note - I don't have any desire to run two trains at once except in "display" mode on isolated routes, so for me, each train in motion needs an operator and thereby a handheld. That again increases the cost of a DCC radio system as you add wireless throttles.
And to follow up on one other detail you mentioned earlier, the Aristo TE will not work in a situation of putting a receiver base station on each "block" or section. There is no way to match the speeds as you go from receiver to receiver, and the TE works better if each receiver is on its own power supply. So some sort of cab control is required for large layouts or multi train operation. I use an advanced cab control system, using a push button based version of MZL control = no toggles, no selector switches, and when in CTC mode, nothing for engineers to do except control the speed and direction of their locos, just like DCC.
The Aristo TE products break down like this:
Ten Channel, 10 amp Train Engineer - used with trackside receiver in any scale or with onboard receiver in large scale - track or battery power in large scale - this is the most popular unit and has been in production for some two decades. This is the one I use.
The Basic Train Engineer - a lower cost trackside product sold in matched receiver/transmitter sets with a lower amp handling and fewer channels.
The HO Train Engineer - uses a transmitter similar to the 10 amp model, but talks directly to loco installed receivers.
The newest is the Train Engineer Revolution - it is an advanced unit that rivals the features of DCC with consisting, sound control, etc, but as of right now the receivers are only small enough for O scale and larger - or they can be used as a trackside receiver as they have high amp ability. Word is that Aristo is working on HO size receivers for this unit as well.
All of these products sell well, mainly to the large scale crowd, but they work very well with the smaller scales as well.
The output of all but the "basic TE" is pulse width modulated square wave (just like the output of a DCC decoder) putting full votage on the track even before the loco moves. This lights most constant lighting circuits to full brightness with the train at rest. Additionally the pulse width feature can be switched off on the ten channel model to provide filtered pure DC.
First, you do not need the expensive Aristo power supply. I use $25 regulated power supplies sold to power CB radios. They are rated at 4 amps at 13.8 volts which is perfect for HO. An old HO power pack will actually work fine in most cases.
Are those NCE and Digitrax starter sets wireless? If not is not a valid comparision. While there may well be other reasons to consider DCC over the TE, not everybody need or wants the features of controling multiple locos on the same section of track - that is a different discussion which I have covered my views on may times on this forum.
The OP is taking about a small layout, likely with only one loco moving at a time, why would it not be an approperate recommendation? The OP indicated later in the thread he did not need wireless, DC or DCC - did I make any other comments beyond my first offer of info? - NO.
As Randy pointed out, Aristo makes a number of different products, and admittedly, the Aristo catalog does not go into great detail about the application of them.
I use eight of the ten channel transmitter/base units, CRE55470, in conjuction with modified MZL control which includes signaling, CTC, detection, one button turnout routing of even complex interlockings, walk around or dispatcher controlled operation and more - all at a total cost less than the cost of decoders for my 130 locos. My locos do not have decoders of any kind, I do not like or use onboard sound.
Does my system require a lot of wiring? - yes - so does any system with CTC, signaling and tower control of turnouts/interlockings - mine just uses $3 relays in place of $30 solid state gizmos and computers.
It's not for everybody - neither is DCC.
And, before you say, "if you just try DCC you will love it", I operate on 5 different large DCC layouts every month, one of which I designed. I also operate regularly on an Aristo powered layout other than my own, which I designed and installed the control system for.
DCC is a great system, but it is not automaticly the best or most afordable option to meet every persons goals.
Hi Sheldon,
Well let's see. The basic TE set is $194 at discount. The 5-amp power supply is $82. So that's $276 for wireless control of one locomotive. The basic Powercab starter set from NCE is $160 at discount. Digitrax has a starter set that discounts for about $180. Both sets include everything needed. I think the MRC starter set is cheaper still. If you don't have any loco that has factory DCC, I'll be generous and say $25 additional.
You are the one saying apples and apples. The original post didn't request wireless, and in fact that's part of why I didn't mention the TE in my original post. So I was wrong, the TE is not "as costly" as starting in DCC, it is MORE costly, and I'll now add that adding control of multiple locos is enormously more costly than buying non-sound decoders.
I'm not criticizing the TE. When I had to replace my original DC throttles due to unavailability of a key part I investigated available options, and I was intrigued by the Aristo-Craft / Crest but I have to say that the economics just don't work if you plan to have more than one locomotive running at a time. Also at the time (I was looking at their first-generation unit) I believe you had to have a separate transmitter as well as receiver for each loco or section. Its just not the most appropriate recommendation for the conditions described by the originator of the thread.
There's two ways to set up the Aristo stuff. The receivers you put in each loco are for large scale - G scale stuff. They can even run off a battery pack instead of track power, which can come in handy when the track is outdoors - you think you have problems with direty track on an inside layout.. But they also have a different version where you have one base for each cab - so if you were just goign to have one cab you'd need one base plus one handheld. The base has a variable DC output like a regular power pack except speed and direction are controlled by the wireless handheld.
Sheldon is the expert on this around here, he runs multiple cabs on his layout with a modified MZL route cab control to avoid all that annoying toggle flipping you have to do with simpler cab control schemes.
Hi Randy et alia,
I went to the Aristo site. Yes, it is DC although the information on the site does not adequately describe the DC waveform(s). But help me out here. You say there is no need to buy decoders but don't they just call them receivers instead? They state pretty clearly that you need a receiver for each loco. The HO receivers are $94 apiece at Trainworld.
the designer of the circuit said the same thing. so i'm going to go with the one he has designed already that most closely has the features i want. of course this means having a fwd/rev switch but i can deal with that since it has all the other features i want. I want to tell Fred thanks for answering when i asked about combining the two. and i would like to also let anyone else know who is considering such a project to check out his web site at http://www.awrr.com/throttle.html. i plan on building THE throttle with the selectable yard/local/main switch.
I can assure you that combining two circuits is not going to work, you are better off designing a new one.
it's only a small (2x8 HO scale) switching layout so wireless and DCC are gross overkill. i only mentioned wanting something like the rix unit from all those years ago. i looked at the vari pulse unit and like it but also found two designs for throttle on the web site for the armadillo and western that i like. the only issue is i like features of those two and would like to find out if combining the circuits is possible before i decide which way to go. i asked the owner of the site if it was possible but as of yet no reply(only asked this morning). i like the one with switchable speed controls(3 settings that effect the output voltage depending on if running on a main or in a yard, better control in yards this way) and the one with a two direction speed knob (one way is FWD and the other way is REV with no separate switch for direction). as soon as i find out if i can combine yard/main switch with the FWD/REV single knob i'll make my decision on weather to buy the vari pulse or build my own. in the mean time any other ideas are still appreciated though.
steamnut Hi Randy, I greatly respect your opinion re electronics but the Aristo Train Engineer to my understanding is no longer available in a "true DC" version. Also is as costly as a starter DCC.
Hi Randy, I greatly respect your opinion re electronics but the Aristo Train Engineer to my understanding is no longer available in a "true DC" version. Also is as costly as a starter DCC.
That's funny, the Aristo web site says the 10 channel Train Engineer is in stock as we speak. What do you mean by true DC version? The TE is a DC throttle. Train World currently has them listed for $194.00 for the transmitter/receiver set.
I use the Aristo Train Engineer in HO (eight of them actually) and am very happy with them, as do a number of other HO modelers I know. They provide exceptional speed control, are simple to use, have great range, and much more.
If the OP is interested in wireless DC, I would be happy to provide more info on the use of the TE in smaller scales.
"as costly as a DCC starter set"? How about we compare apples to apples - how expensive is the minimum DCC wireless radio system on the market?
And, let's count a few decoders in that price, since with DCC you will need one in every loco and with the TE you need none.
"almost everybody uses DCC" - I guess the 60% or more of modelers who don't use DCC, including Kermit Paul who's top notch layout is in the latest "Model Railroad Hobbyest", are just nobody.
Here we go again, a person can't ask a DC question without a dozen "experts" telling them how much better life would be with DCC.
No, it's DC. And I DID say it was the 'cadillac', which certainly does not imply cheap.Yes, it costs as much as a DCC system, but you also don;t need to buy decoders and modify your locos.
The $10 Radio Shack throttles can be greatly improved simpoly by getting a better wuality potentiometer from a source like Mouser or Digikey, the oones Radio Shack sells have far too much 'dead band' at the end of travel so you have to crank it pretty far just ot get things moving. They're just cheap junky potentiometers, at a premium price. Had the same problem with a quicky jump throttle I built to use with my Zephyr, which was basically the first stage of the basic transistor throttle - it simply was missing the high current power transistor for the final stage since that's not needed for the Zephyr's jump ports.
A basic throttle (without all sorts of adjustable momentum, pulses, and braking) is a pretty simple beginner project, about the only common helpful item for a railroad that's easier would be a capacitor discharge supply. Probably the 'Cadillac' of DC controls is the Aristo Train Engineer, with PWM drive and wireless handheld operation.
Rix is no longer made and no plans to resurrect from what I'm told. Rick has built what appears to be a pretty successful professional injection molding business and to call his RR products a sideline today would still be an exaggeration.
I highly recommend GML Enterprises. Their rock-bottom base hand-held throttle is $56 with a 10-foot cord. Even without options, it puts out very smooth filtered DC. You can get a 20-foot cord for another $9. Other options include adjustable momentum, braking and adjustable pulse. An optional feature that is very cool for a switching layout is their half-throttle option: you use a toggle to choose between having the full range of the throttle voltage, or using only the lower half. Quality unit made in the USA. Gene is a great guy.
Cooler Crawler is a very good unit too, and he's a great guy as well. However, you will have to build your own hand-held throttle and even at that its more costly than the GML option.
I've been the $10-Radio Shack-transistor-throttle route too. Ya know, you get what you pay for, its good enough for some people and in a way I envy them. Not good enough for me, not by a long shot.
Let us know what you decide.
I personally think it's easier to build your own DC throttle. Here's a very simple one I built from a Darlington circuit in Model Railroader several decades ago. Cost was about $10 in Radio Shark parts. I used an AHM power pack with no DC output as a power source.
Other circuits using more up to date parts can be found at http://www.awrr.com/throttle.html and http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/Throttles.html. A basic transistor throttle is a pretty simple device. Adding momentum is also very easy.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I did a quick search of the RIX web site and there is no mention of their throttle, so it must have been discontinued long ago.
For a DIY DC controller, check out the Cooler Crawler from TracTronics. You can either purchase an assembled system or download the schematics and build your own.
We've been using this system on our HO scale club layout for over 20 years and have had no problems with it, although practically everyone now uses the DCC system instead of DC block control.
http://users.rcn.com/weyand/tractronics/articles/ccartcl/ccartcl.htm
i am building a small switching layout and don't really want a bulky boxy power pack. nor do i have the monies available for DCC. does anyone know where i can find the RIX tethered throttle (this thing was popular in the 80's( as seen in the port of Los Angeles module series)) or something like it? or would it be simpler to just build one myself?