I am just getting back into the hobby after 35 years. I just finished cleaning and overhauling 3 pretty nice diesel engines (35 years old, also.) I know the brands but have no idea what models they are. I hate to get rid of them because they run so well. I mean, really well. But - I'm planning to switch to dcc. I've done a lot of electronics work in the past. How hard is it to install decoders? I've been on the web and I keep reading that you can get decoders for $10. The cheapest I've seen are $40! I'm guessing I would have to hardwire the decoders. Am I going down a bad road here? Should I just get some new dcc diesels? How small are the decoders? Thanks alot!
Markteach
If your older engines run really well now, there is a good chance they will run well in DCC. The other way, they often run even worse...no improvement.
The motor must be isolated from the frame. Its only contact with electrons must be from what the decoder, only, feeds it.
If you, with your electronics background, can safely and effectively isolate the motor, the rest is just soldering the right wires to the right decoder for your needs. Note that if you have bulbs, you may need to do some figuring to match the voltage at the decoder's outputs. This part I have no experience in, but it is a possibility. Might be worth installing some LED's to preclude having to get into the engines again before long. LED's usually mean a resistor....again, you'd have to do some research and figuring.
Some of the guys here say you can get TCS decoders, very basic ones, for about $12-13 each, particularly if you order in batches of maybe 10 or more. Litchfield Station and Tony's Train Exchange might be a good place to look initially. The other guys will probably answer with some tips.
Should you just get new diesels. Well, if your diesels run well, and do so on the tracks you have, and you are otherwise happy, then why change I say. On the other hand, if you find soon that you want a bit more realism, maybe to do some finer modeling, and you realize you would want a more appropriate code of rails, say Code 70, you are probably not going to be able to use those diesels unless you grind down the flanges, replace the wheels (good luck with that!), or bite it and start with a fresh modern stable.
Crandell
Mark,
I'd say...Go for it! As Crandell already mentioned, you can pick up very respectable decoders for $12-15 each. Two that come to mind are the TCS T1 and the NCE D13SR.
Along with Litchfield Station and Tony's Train Exchange, there's also Empire Northern Models and Ulrich Models. The latter two have more sole proprietorship. And both - Tim Smith and Steve, respectively - know their stuff. I'm sure they would be more than glad to guide you through any questions you might have about retrofitting decoders in older locomotives.
With that said, Mark, there is some wonderful new stock available, too; DCC & sound and/or DCC-ready (i.e. wired and ready for a decoder). Is there a particular era of diesels that you are interested in or enjoy?
From your other post, Mark, I see we're going to have to change your view about steamers. (I enjoy both steam and early diesel.)
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Installing decoders is not that big a deal if you have basic electronics and soldering skills. The key to proper decoder installation is space. Older engines were not designed with DCC in mind because there was no such thing as DCC in model railroading 35 years ago. So, older engines may or may not have the space required to install a decoder.
The more difficult challenge is isolating the motor so that the decoder is protected. Any contact of the motor with a metal frame is sure death for a decoder. If you have no experience in this regard, my advice would be to turn to a pro who is experienced in such matters. Someone who knows what he is doing can isolate the motor and install a decoder for around $50.
My advice, as I mentioned in your other thread, is to keep your current engines and layout and stick to DC until you ease your way back into the hobby.
A typical decoder costs around $25 to $30. Not all decoders need to be hard wired. Newer engines come DCC ready in which case you may be able to just plug in the decoder or at least just solder some wires. However, older DC engines need to be converted to DCC in which case the decoder will need to be hard wired. The size of the decoder varies, but the typical HO decoder is approximately 1" x 3" with a height of maybe 1/2" to accomodate the electronic components.
If you are intent on going the DCC route, your best bet is to just purchase and install a basic DCC system on your 4' x 8' layout and then buy a few DCC engines. You could always run your older DC engines on a separate track within the 4' x 8' layout.
My advice? Since your equipment runs so well and since you have limited space requirements. start back into the hobby with what you are familiar and that is DC.
One final thought. Since you space requirements limit you to a 4' x 8' layout, could you add a second tier? If you could build up, you could have DCC on one level and DC on the other to accomodate your older equipment.
Rich
Alton Junction
I've never been one to fear wiring, so that's not been an issue with decoder installation for me. The problem, as others have mentioned, is space inside the shell. Some decoders are quite small, perhaps an inch long, 5/8 wide and about a quarter-inch thick. Sound decoders, on the other hand, are longer and thicker because they need more components and also some beefier ones.
Give it a try with a TCS decoder. They have a "goof-proof" guarantee, and they'll replace a bad decoder even if it failed because you installed it wrong. If you take your time and follow directions, though, decoder installation isn't difficult.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
It sounds like you're pretty handy with electronics, and if so, decoder installation won't be a big deal for you. There are also a lot of hobby shops that will install them for a reasonable fee.
One option you can use with your small layout is an A-B switch. Simply wire your DC powerpack to one input, and your DCC powerpack to the other, and use the switch to select between inputs. A common set of bus wires would connect the switch to the layout itself. I ran this way for about a year and a half, until I got all my locos converted to DCC.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
As far as whether to convert or not, I'd say you're starting over or just beginning so why not do it with the most current technology available?
Oh and Welcome to the forums.
Springfield PA
markteach,I think you'll be surprised at how well locos run these days compared to the mid-1970's. Quite frankly, there were no really nice running diesel locos in the 1970's when compared to today's products. In the mid-1970's in HO scale, you had growly Atlas (original Roco drive "Made in Austria"), growly Athearns (with metal trucks), toy-train set Tycos, Life-Likes and Bachmanns (with only half wheel pickup and drives and no flywheels), and not much else in diesels (other than brass). I would not plan on decodering these just yet if I were you. I would suggest you try out some modern models from Atlas, Athearn, BLI, Bowser, or Walthers/Proto 2000/Proto 1000 (et al) before taking the time and trouble to decoder 35-year old locos. You might be so impressed with the new stuff that your old stuff will look better sitting on a mantel or in a display case somewhere.
That being said, it's not that had to decoder even old engines. There are exceptions, but as long as you take your time and read the directions, you won't have too many problems. And use the internet.
Oh, and decoders of the DH123D variety from Digitrax retail list for $20 and can be had for less. Try www.tonystrains.com for decoder and DCC needs, as well as Litchfield Station whom I've heard is pretty good, too. The decoders, BTW, are pretty small like a postage stamp. The N and Z scale decoders are even smaller.
selector,I wish you wouldn't use the term, "The motor must be isolated from the frame." That's not 100% true. In reality, the motor brushes must be isolated from the frame, not necessarily the motor itself. I've had a few newbies describe to me their troubles of trying to isolate a can motor from the frame when all they had to do was cut the wires to the brushes.
richhotrain,Older HO engines generally have plenty of space for a DCC decoder.
Isolating the motor from the frame is not important. Isolating the brushes from the frame is what's important (provided the frame is used to carry power).
A typical HO decoder costs $20 MSRP, and can be easily had at 20% or more off, or $16 ea.
There is no such thing as a 1" x 3" x 1/2" size HO decoder. A DH123D decoder is 0.66” x 1.2” x 0.25”...or roughly half the size you called out.
Paul A, Cutler III
Thanks, Paul. I will adopt the more precise description from now on.
Paul3 selector,I wish you wouldn't use the term, "The motor must be isolated from the frame." That's not 100% true. In reality, the motor brushes must be isolated from the frame, not necessarily the motor itself. I've had a few newbies describe to me their troubles of trying to isolate a can motor from the frame when all they had to do was cut the wires to the brushes.
Paul,
I will join Crandell and plead guilty to using that expression.
Can you elaborate on your explanation. What are the do's and don'ts of "isolating a motor from the frame"?
I think it's safe to tell people to isolate the motor from the frame. It's easier to do and covers all cases including when the motor casing is common to one of the conductors.