I am hopefully converting a 35 year old brass engine from DC to DCC. I have removed rubber tubing between the Motor going to the gear box and the Open frame motor to be replaced by a can motor. When I ran it on a the LHS layout it did not run well. The gears seem to be grabbing. My question is this. If the engine is turned completely upside down the drivers turn free. It as if there is no contact with the gear. When the Engine is normal position should'nt the gears turn as I roll the engine on a sheet of paper towel? I haven't pressed hard but shouldn't the wheel turn easy and the shaft on the gearbox turn? This is my first attempt at someting like this so please keep your answers simple. Thanks in advance for your answers
Harold
What make is the engine. KEY used a "coasting gear box". The box had floating gears that moved up to allow the engine to coast or be pushed along the track by hand. If the grease in the box got hard this did not always work. If this is your problem clean and re-lube the gears.
The Model is a United Scale Model. Mfd by Atlas Ind exclusively for Pacific Fast Mail
B & O Power 2-8-0
Forgot to mention. I took the bottom cover off and greased the gear.
As noted earlier did you clean out the old grease first or just add more?
I would disconnect the drive shaft from the motor to see if things turn freely for starters.
As to the wheels turning when pushed the answer is usually no. Consider that the gearing is significantly stepped down. Pushing on the loco results in the opposite gearing which is significant stepping up. Turning it upside shouldn't make a difference unless the worm gear is disengaging.
Springfield PA
I did not clean out anything from the gear as I did not see anything there. I add grease. I had removed the motor . The Shaft turns freely. Is that good?
The way the typical gear tower works is to provide a "mechanical advantage" to the motor. The motor spins at higher speed, generating power, and that is progressively reduced in speed via the reduction gear ratios in the tower. When you put weight on the engine and want to make its drivers and rods move as if it were being driven, you are attempting to power the gear reduction the wrong direction, and attempting to spin, at the very far end, a motor not in receipt of power. No wonder you get only sliding drivers and still rods! You were trying to force a column of heavy moving penstock water back up in the direction from which it came...physically the closest thing to impossible there is.
I'm not sure what you mean about the shaft spinning freely. If you mean the drive-shaft, the one between the tower and the motor, no, spinning freely means your motor cannot force the main gear to turn if there is no friction or mechanical component making the gear turn. Depending on setup, the shaft may rotate slightly back and forth, even slide a wee bit toward and away from either the gear tower or the motor. But at some point it should mechanically lock up so that the gear is forced to rotate.
Crandell
If you meant the shaft operated freely with the motor removed then yes, that's how it should be as long as the wheels moved a little. It would take several turns of the shaft to see any movement and it may only be a very small amount.
Assuming your 2-8-0 has the original gearbox, it should not be possible to rotate the drivers against the gearbox regardless of the position of the locomotive. If you can turn the loco upside-down and spin the drivers by hand, the gearbox is probably shot. The drive worm is losing mesh with the gear on the axle.
The original United gearboxes are 40:1 ratio, non-idler configuration, and were very durable. With a lot of use and little maintenance however, they will wear out. If you must replace the gearbox, keep in mind that a 40:1 ratio box will require a high speed can motor (at least 12,000 rpm) or the top speed of the loco will be quite slow. A better choice would be a 27:1 or 28:1 gearbox, as they are better suited to widely available 8000-9000 rpm can motors.
I have replaced a number of the United gearboxes over the years, but do not currently have any in my spare parts. Northwest Short Line, and Precision Scale Co. offer a variety of 27:1 and 28:1 boxes that would make suitable replacements.
Jim J.
I have never attempted anything like this and only have basic tools. Am I getting in over my head? That is why I was just looking to change the motor. I figured I could handle that. Any other thing I should know about getting a motor for the existing setup?
Harold.
The original motor and gearbox in your loco have 2.4mm diameter shafts. It is difficult these days to find a can motor with this shaft diameter. I do not recommend rubber tubing as a drive mechanism. It will cause unwanted vibrations. The longer the tube, the more vibration it will cause. Driveline components are available from NWSL to adapt differing shaft diameters, but using these would require you to limit the ability of the original gearbox to rotate fore and aft. If this is not done, binding of the driveline will occur.
Replacement of the motor can be done with basic tools. Replacing a gearbox will require specialized tools like a press and/or wheel and gear puller.
I have attached a pic of a recent re-motor/re-gear project. This is an old LMB New York Central Mohawk that originally had a driveline very similar to yours, with an open frame motor and a non-idler gearbox. This is the way I like to see it done, and when it is, the loco will run as quiet and smooth as any you are likely to see. Going to this level is not a necessity, but if a locomotive does not run well on DC, it will not run well on DCC.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd51/Hwolf_photos/IMG_3282.jpg
I have not got the tools or the skill at this point to change the gears. Do you do this?
The photo is the arrangement I have.
Your picture does indeed show the original configuration of the open frame motor and 40:1 non-idler gearbox. This is typical of PFM/United brass locomotives of the 1960s and 1970s. If you are interested in obtaining a NWSL motor, you should select the 1630D-9 motor. It has a no load speed of 12,500 RPM, and with a 40:1 gearbox and the 62" drivers of the B&O Consolidation, will give your loco a top speed of approximately 58 scale MPH at 12 volts.
NWSL currently offers only two motors the 1630D-9 mentioned above, and the 2032D-9 which has a no load speed of 9500 RPM. The 2032D-9 motor with a 40:1 gearbox and 62" drivers will only produce a top speed of approximately 44 scale MPH. This would be a bit slow for your loco. Both of these motors have shafts smaller in diameter than the original open frame motor, so some engineering will be required to install them.
I have replaced many brass locomotive gearboxes, but only in my own locos. I do not want to use this forum to solicit business, so my advice is to check with advertisers in Model Railroader and other similar periodicals. You will likely find several in the classified sections that perform this kind of work. My advise is to ask for, and check references. If you can not find someone suitable, send me a private message, and I will try to assist you.
First however, I would recommend that you have someone knowledgeable check the condition of your original gearbox. If it is in, or can be restored to, good operating condition, there is no reason it can't be used. This will save a considerable amount of effort and money.
Jim
First a question. How do you send I private message?
Second. Let me take this opportunity to thank you for all your help a to wish to you and your family a Very HEALTHY & Happy Holiday. I see your from Ohio so I don't think I have to wish you a White Christmas. I am in Miami, Fl
This also goes for all the others who are reading this.
Sorry.....they call them "conversations" here. Most sites call it private messaging. If you click on a user name (highlited in blue) you will be redirected to a screen that allows you to start a conversation.
No....a white Christmas is a given....it has been white here for a month. More snow expected tonight.
Happy holidays (Merry Christmas!!!!) to you and your's as well.