I soon will be starting to design a new layout thatn will be two decks and maybe a low third deck for on track storage under part of the lay out. For now I am leaning to useing NEC system,however that not in stone yet. My collection of power is from very old to several newer units (total is close to 80-90 units )many will not be changed to dcc for now if ever. I would like any advice or helpfull ideas that could be offered. What not to do or should be done for good operations.
This is my personal opinion, but for good operations, switching to DCC is really all or nothing - especially for a multideck layout with (I assume) multiple operators.
Under your circumstances, either DC or DCC can be made to work well, but the DC will require advance learning and planning to get an efficient and understandable control system for your guests and yourself. From my understanding - not personal experience - DCC is easier to configure for operations after the fact.
If you try to have the ability to have it both ways - DC on one night, and DCC on another, (again personal opinion) you will find the task of keeping track of which locomotives are DC and which are DCC, and removing or isolating the DC locomotives before beginning DCC operations to be more hassle than you will want to deal with. And you have to ensure there is absolutely no bridging of DC powered track and DCC powered track, even momentarily by metal wheels. Any mistakes with power or locomotives will be costly when you smell the magic smoke being let out.
For a new layout, it is easier on the wallet and time spent wiring, and much better for your peace of mind to decide one way or the other in advance. If choosing DCC, accept that you don't really use all your locos on a regular basis. Convert those that are worth converting, and get rid of the rest. Or consider the price of the conversions to be worth not having to wire both systems into the layout.
As I said up front, the primary advantages of DCC on a large layout are sound, and not having to learn how to efficiently block your layout with automatic logic for block selection whenever possible. But the price of those conveniences and features are learning decoder programming and the cost of installing decoders.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Boss conductor I soon will be starting to design a new layout thatn will be two decks and maybe a low third deck for on track storage under part of the lay out. For now I am leaning to useing NEC system,however that not in stone yet. My collection of power is from very old to several newer units (total is close to 80-90 units )many will not be changed to dcc for now if ever. I would like any advice or helpfull ideas that could be offered. What not to do or should be done for good operations.
Sounds like you are building a new layout with DCC.
I would suggest choosing one or the other, either stay with DC or go to ALL DCC. Mixing the two can cause problems as some recent posts pointed out when people smoked their locos or systems accidentally. Even "fail safe" systems do NOT guarantee you won't screw something up and burn out a decoder or system here or there. SO I suggest DO NOT MIX THE TWO.
Since you say "My collection of power is from very old to several newer units (total is close to 80-90 units )many will not be changed to dcc for now if ever" This implies to me you want to go all DCC and so I would forgo any consideration of keeping the old locos, unless you are REALLY attached to them. That way if you have NO DC locos,you will likely never mix the two systems and fry something you don't want to fry.
I think if you choose to go all DCC you will be happy. DCC is more expensive to start out and build up. DCC is easier to wire, a simple buss wire and some feeders, fewer electrical blocks if any, can operate several locos on the same trackage, {even in opposite directions}, DCC controls the locos, not the track current, and if you like sound you can have sound to match your loco.
I am definitely not a one to be asking about converting old stock to DCC, but I can say from what I've read it can be complicated or simple if you know what you are doing and are good at isolating motors and such. If you very electrically/electronically inclined, you might be able to do it. Me, I can fry a bread toaster by plugging it in.
When I jumped back into the hobby 4 years ago, I got started with DC, and had 3 DC locos. THEn I decided I wanted this new thing called DCC and switched to save on wiring, and I liked the idea of controling the loco, not the track. I only run DCC locos as the mixing of the two are not worth me frying something, and converting the DC ones to DCC isn't worth the cost to do so- it would cost me more to pay someone to do it more than I paid for the locos to begin with. I am going to be giving away my old DC locos this year, I think.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
One of the things you had concerns about was the number of locomotives that you now have.
Todays locomotives are 100 times better than what you may have now. Some of what you have can be converted and some can't. But if at all possible, I would get some new locomotives that are either DCC ready, or get them with the decoders already installed. It will be less of a headache for you.
The locomotives that can be converted should all have the following: All wheel electrical pick up; all wheel drive; the motor should be a Can motor as they use less current; the motor should have at least one flywheel on it, and the wheels should be Nickel Silver.
Most of your locomotives will not be DCC ready, which means that the motor must be electrically isolated from the chassis or frame, and a plug-in connector provided for the decoder. Any decoders that you install will have to hard wired in. That is not always easy to do. You have to be able to solder really well to do it correctly and not blow the decoder. Do not even consider converting a loco that has an open frame motor, like Mantua used. If you want to convert one of them, you should re-motor it using a Can motor and flywheel.
If you can't solder in the decoders yourself, I would sell them on eBay. There are always skilled people looking for good locomotives that they can convert if they can get them for the right price.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
For some reason my comments were posted twice. No way to delete this second one, so I erased the text.
gandydancer19 ...The locomotives that can be converted should all have the following: All wheel electrical pick up; all wheel drive; the motor should be a Can motor as they use less current; the motor should have at least one flywheel on it, and the wheels should be Nickel Silver. Most of your locomotives will not be DCC ready, which means that the motor must be electrically isolated from the chassis or frame, and a plug-in connector provided for the decoder. Any decoders that you install will have to hard wired in. That is not always easy to do. You have to be able to solder really well to do it correctly and not blow the decoder. Do not even consider converting a loco that has an open frame motor, like Mantua used. If you want to convert one of them, you should re-motor it using a Can motor and flywheel....
...The locomotives that can be converted should all have the following: All wheel electrical pick up; all wheel drive; the motor should be a Can motor as they use less current; the motor should have at least one flywheel on it, and the wheels should be Nickel Silver.
Most of your locomotives will not be DCC ready, which means that the motor must be electrically isolated from the chassis or frame, and a plug-in connector provided for the decoder. Any decoders that you install will have to hard wired in. That is not always easy to do. You have to be able to solder really well to do it correctly and not blow the decoder. Do not even consider converting a loco that has an open frame motor, like Mantua used. If you want to convert one of them, you should re-motor it using a Can motor and flywheel....
I can't say as I totally agree with the above. What is true is that converting your older locomotives will take some effort on your part, or being willing to pay $30 or more per to have the work done by someone else.
- All wheel pickup is desirable regardless of DC or DCC. Installing pickups on insulated wheels or installing sliders is not all that difficult, and will improve the slow speed performance of just about any locomotive that does not have all wheel pickup.
- Remotoring is usually not necessary unless needed due to poor performance of the existing motor. You should check the slip current (motor draw when drive wheels are slipping on the rails) to ensure the chosen decoder can handle the current. High current open frame motors that are in otherwise good condition can usually be fixed by replacing the magnet with a rare earth magnet stack, which cost less than $5. This is a lot easier than replacing the motor with a different configuration motor, and usually gives at least 90% of the results of a $20+ can motor.
- Nickel silver wheels do not oxidize as easily as brass wheels, and tend to stay cleaner than the sintered iron Athearn wheels. But non-nickel silver wheels are not show stoppers. Again, the effect is the same on DC and DCC. Dirty wheels cause stalls. Wheels can be kept clean by frequent use and/or cleaning. And nickel silver wheels need to be kept clean, too.
- Flywheels are nice - again for both DC and DCC - but are not critical. Some DCC users insist that good decoders do everythng a flywheel does and more, and therefore don't bother with flywheels.
Older locomotives typically used the frame to conduct the power to one brush of the motor. DCC requires both motor brushes be insulated from the locomotive frame. You may choose to insulate the entire motor from the frame to achieve insulation of both brushes, but one way or another both brushes must be totally insulated from each other and from track power.
Decoders can be either hard-wired into the locomotive, or plugged into a plug and wiring harness that you install.