Greetings all,I've had my new BLI Dreyfuss Hudson for a little over a week now and, in general, I've been very pleased with it. However, I did discover something odd last night that I've never run across before.I've been running my Hudson on address "3" since the day I received it. Usually, once I receive a locomotive, I plop it right down onto the programming track and program in the long address. This time, however, I waited till last night.When I attempted to program the Paragon2 decoder with my NCE Power Cab, I got a message on the LCD screen saying "Short found" then another message saying "Continue programming anyhow?" I was able to program the decoder to the long address but my Hudson then ran reverse in forward and forward in reverse.I know that I can change a CV in order to switch forward and reverse so that it matches the throttle. However, I'm not keen on leaving things "as is" if there is indeed a short somewhere. (The only shorts acceptable for me are those worn during the warm months.) I have not removed the tender shell to investigate what I can visually see on the decoder board itself.Has anyone else here ever run across this kind of error before in their programming experience? I sorta figured that if a short was discovered, a DCC system would just out right refuse to program the decoder until the short was repaired. Could the short also be located elsewhere on the locomotive - i.e. apart from the decoder itself?Thanks for the help...Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
what is CV29?? just read it back and check it is the expected value. the system may just have stitched you up??
Could just be that when the first programming pulses went out, the keep alive capacitor needed to charge - this can appear like a short. If there really was a short - it's likely the loco wouldn;t run, or would be erratic, and the decoder would be toast rather quickly, even if it was only an intermittant short.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thom.
What I do with the sound engines is start the program track mode first then place the loco on it. The Power cab should have enough power to read and write CVs to any sound decoder. The large capacitors in the Paragon 2 decoders will read as a short sometimes. After they are charged you should have no problem reading and writing CVs. CV29 should be an even number for forward direction. After asking if you want to program anyway the power cab would switch to paged mode and if there is a short it would shut down and go blank.
A little advise if you care to accept it. Never place a new or newly installed decoder on the main first. The limited current of the program track has saved many a decoder for me. Even right out of the box there can be problems. I have had new decoders wired wrong and problems with locomotives with factory installed decoders turn up bad.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
The Hudson briefly shorted at a closed turnout before putting it on the programming track. Could that have anything to do with the strangeness?
I broke in the locomotive for ~20-30 minutes before programming it's 4-digit #. Even after another decoder reset, I still get the "short" message mentioned previously while programming. After the message it goes into DIR MODE for programming.
Tom
I've got an older BLI Hudson. It's got a QSI decoder. I can't program it on my Lenz system's programming track at all, so I have to use the POM (Program On Main) mode. Once programmed, it runs fine.
I'm guessing that the earlier suggestions about the keep-alive capacitor are correct. The initial large current flow is showing up as a "short," which it really isn't.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
We have an NCE PowerCab at the club.
It won't program MTH or certain BLI-QSI eqipped locos. We hooked it up to a Tony's Train Exchange PowerPax programming module and all is good.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
One of the reasons I have not upgraded my version 1.1 power cab is the program track has the power to get buy the large caps on the sound decoders. The version 2.8 which I assume you have goes into direct mode programing and skips the paged mode altogether. If you look in the book you may be able to scroll threw the direct mode back to paged mode so you can read CVs.
locoi1sa Thom. One of the reasons I have not upgraded my version 1.1 power cab is the program track has the power to get buy the large caps on the sound decoders. The version [1]2.8 which I assume you have goes into direct mode programing and skips the paged mode altogether. If you look in the book you may be able to scroll threw the direct mode back to paged mode so you can read CVs. Pete
One of the reasons I have not upgraded my version 1.1 power cab is the program track has the power to get buy the large caps on the sound decoders. The version [1]2.8 which I assume you have goes into direct mode programing and skips the paged mode altogether. If you look in the book you may be able to scroll threw the direct mode back to paged mode so you can read CVs.
Pete,
I'm not aware that there is any difference in programming between OS v1.1 and v1.28 of the Power Cab. Except for a few new features with v1.28, it should be exactly the same.
You still have to use the PCP panel set up when programming a locomotive on the programming track with the Power Cab. When using the Power Cab with the Smart Booster (SB3a), however, the only programming option is POM or Programming on the Main.
First off, I want to thank everyone for their input and suggestions. I really do appreciate it. For those interested, here's a new wrinkle to the issue.
I took my BLI Dreyfuss to an open house this evening to run it. Unfortunately, it would only sit idle on the track; with small amounts of smoke wisping from the smoke stack. No sound - No movement - No response to any pressed keys. Only the front headlight in the on position. All of my other locomotives operated just fine on the layout.
When I got back home I placed the Dreyfuss on the programming track. Same thing: No response whatsoever - either on address 5450 (road #) or address 3. [FYI: Prior to taking it to the open house, I did successfully program the Dreyfuss to #5450 using my Power Cab.]
Still on the programming track I attempted to reset the decoder back to factory settings using CV8 = 8. Surprisingly, it actually took several attempts before the reset would take. Once the reset finally took, I went back to the task of programming the Paragon2 decoder to the long address.
What I found out was that programming was hit or miss. It would either:
Even with the "Short Circuit Detected" message, I might be given one of the following two options:
If I were able to "successfully" program the Paragon2 decoder to a 4-digit address, the Dreyfuss ran forward in reverse and reverse in forward - as mentioned previously. Anytime the decoder was successfully reset and run on address 3, the locomotive ran forward and reverse - just like it's supposed to.
Are all these issues due to the larger capacitors on the Paragon2 decoder? Or, is the decoder somehow faulty? I don't know. What I do know is that I will be scribing an e-mail to BLI to see what they have to recommend.
It may be that BLI will want me to return the Dreyfuss to their repair shop. If it does turns out to be a faulty decoder, I may see if they might be willing to send me a new Paragon2 decoder to test in exchange for this one.
I'll keep you all posted...
Oh - and maybe the smoke unit - try switchign it off before using the programming track - use the switch not the smoke off function key. That might be a problem as well. I don't rememebr the order of things whent he Paragon 2 T-1's came in at one of our summer shows. I know the first thign everybody did was put theirs ont he track to try it out under the default address. And after running it long enough to see the smoke effect, smoke got turned off on everyone's since club rules are no smoke. I don;t remember if anyoen did address programming before turnign off the smoke witht he slide switch, but anyone who programmed them had no trouble, the program track was simply a spare DB-150 and throttle, no boosters. Last show I had my program track with a PR3 and my laptop and programmed one that someone bought from our sales table with no problem - I do not think the smoke was turned off.
Thanks, Randy. I did turn the smoke unit off by pressing F7 (it takes two presses at initial start up) but I'll try the switch instead. I'd been leaving the switch in the on position in the hopes of slowly excising the last of the smoke in the smoke unit.
Although I would have preferred that BLI had not preloaded the smoke fluid in the smoke unit, as I said before, they probably wanted to test it out before shipping the locomotives off..
Plus if they shipped it dry, they'd burn out in short order - so as soon as it stops smoking, turn it off.
Dunno about the Hudson, but the T-1's have this problem - the actual smoke unit is smaller in diameter thant he stack detail, and they did NOT supply a funnel witht he T-1 for refillign the smoke fluid. If you do not use a funne, it runs down the outside of the smoke unit - and since it's not exactly palstic compatible, it can get into the fan and mess up the mechanical joint between the fan motor and fan - makign the plastic gummy and no longer a solid connection. ENd result, just a thin wisp of smoke, worst than the old Suethe smoke units. BLI will repalce failed smoke units under warranty, but the same problemw ill keep happenign if you don;t use a tiny funnel to avoid spillage. The first of the Paragon 2 steamers they shipped with the funnel, but cut it out of the T-1, I guess to save a couple of pennies.
rrinker Plus if they shipped it dry, they'd burn out in short order - so as soon as it stops smoking, turn it off.
That's the plan.
Dunno about the Hudson, but the T-1's have this problem - the actual smoke unit is smaller in diameter thant he stack detail, and they did NOT supply a funnel witht he T-1 for refillign the smoke fluid. If you do not use a funne, it runs down the outside of the smoke unit - and since it's not exactly palstic compatible, it can get into the fan and mess up the mechanical joint between the fan motor and fan - makign the plastic gummy and no longer a solid connection. ENd result, just a thin wisp of smoke, worst than the old Suethe smoke units. BLI will repalce failed smoke units under warranty, but the same problemw ill keep happenign if you don;t use a tiny funnel to avoid spillage. The first of the Paragon 2 steamers they shipped with the funnel, but cut it out of the T-1, I guess to save a couple of pennies. --Randy
Both my Dreyfuss and regular Paragon2 Hudsons came with the tube of smoke that included a funnel. Thankfully the Dreyfuss is mostly brass so I don't worry about the oil softening the shell. Even so, I've been wiping the small residue of oil off the top of the Dreyfuss stack with a handkerchief.
I received a response from Mark Rice (BLI Service Technician) this morning to my e-mail. Mark gave me a few suggestions to try. I'll post the suggestions and results as soon as I have a chance to try them.
rrinker Oh - and maybe the smoke unit - try switchign it off before using the programming track - use the switch not the smoke off function key.
Well, it looks like that might be the issue, Randy - or at least the majority of it. Once I shut the smoke unit off manually with the slide switch, I didn't get a single "short circuit detected" message in programming mode. And, if I switched the smoke unit back on, I got the error message.
I also observed something else unusual. When entering programming mode using the NCE Power Cab, you initially get screens showing you the manufacturer and decoder numbers for the decoder you are trying to program. My understanding is that each manufacturer and each manufacturer's decoder is assigned a specific 3-digit number for identification purposes. So, if you are programming a Lenz Silver MP decoder: Lenz has a specific 3-digit number to say "Hey, I'm from Lenz" and the Silver MP decoder another specific 3-digit number to differentiate it from a Lenz "Gold" decoder. These numbers should be consistent each time you program a particular decoder.
This, however, has not been the case with the Dreyfuss Paragon2 decoder. Here's the manufacturer and decoder numbers for my first three programming attempts:
1st attempt
2nd attempt
3rd attempt
Notice, too, the mode of programming isn't always the same. One time it might be "Pag(e)" mode; another time, "Dir(ect)" mode. The only time those numbers have been consistent is when the smoke unit was turned on. However, the numbers for both were "255", which seemed kinda bizarre to me.
Mark (from BLI) had me try setting specific values to CV17, CV18, and CV29 to find out what affect that had on the Dreyfusses direction after programming it to a 4-digit address. Not surprising, the values changed the direction of travel so that forward became forward and reverse became reverse. Adding a "1" to the value of CV29 changed it back so that forward was now reverse and vice versa.
Mark also asked me if I had tried resetting my DCC system. Once I had done the above, I performed a system reset of my Smart Booster (SB3a). It, however, had no affect on the "short circuit detected" issue.
Anyhow, that's where things are at at the moment. I sent a reply to Mark @ BLI, informing him of the things that I've shared here. Is it a defective (shorting) smoke unit? Is the decoder also acting up? I don't know. I'll see what BLI has to say next and report back.
Hoping some of you, at least, find this Sherlock Holmes-ish experimentation interesting and helpful...
Wow, kudos go out to Randy for being Super Sleuth and chief Decoder Wrench.
Even the blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.
I don't think it's defective. I do know the function key doesn;t turn it off for good - if power is removed, when you turn it back on, the smoke is going even though the last thing you did was it the F key to turn it off. So on the program track it's basically always on. I'm sure the connection through the deocder it some sort of solid state relay sort of thing, no decoder has the output current lon a single function to drive a smoke unit, they take pretty much power. So it's basically connectect across the track via that hidden slide switch.
As for manufacturer and version - I would expect the values returned by reading CV8 and CV7 to always be the same for any given decoder. 255 means it basically gave up - decoder reading is pretty 'dumb' - it tries 0, says "Hey, are you 0" and the decoder either acknowledges or doesn't. If it doesn't, the command station tries 1 - and so on. If it never gets a response from the decoder you're left with 255. programming mode does matter - but that's somethign selected on the command station side, the decoder can;t tll the command station what programming mode to use. I have no idea how it's done on NCE, but on Digitrax you hit the program button repeatedly to cycle through the various modes. Not all decoders support all modes.
Theodd thing is the ack pulse is usually generated by pulsing the motor. Almost every decoder does that. This is why testing a new install on the program track first reveals so much - the circuit fromt he pickups to the decoder and from the decoder to the motor have to be good or you can't read or write the decoder. WHich mena sif the loco runs fine - it ought to respond to the programming. It sounds liek it takes whatever you program it as - can you read back those values of CV17, 18, and 29? Or does that also have varying results like the readof CV8? It might be an inrush issue. No one semed to have an issue with the Paragon II T-1's, but the club program track uses a DB150 which is full power so it can write anythign, and there's no readback, and the one I did with my PR3 i didn;t bother reading anything, just programmed in an address and it took. You can try the 1K resistor trick but that is usualyl for locos that don;t put enough load on the program track, not ones that put too much load on it.
rrinkerIt sounds liek it takes whatever you program it as - can you read back those values of CV17, 18, and 29?
Yes, they were all "255".
tstage rrinker: It sounds liek it takes whatever you program it as - can you read back those values of CV17, 18, and 29? Yes, they were all "255". Tom
rrinker: It sounds liek it takes whatever you program it as - can you read back those values of CV17, 18, and 29?
Well, actually I think that probably means you couldn't read them back!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Randy & Jeff,
On further thought, those numbers were prior to me switching the smoke unit to the OFF position. I did reprogram those CVs after switching the smoke unit off but I don't remember what they were. I can pretty much guarantee that they a value other than "255.
Getting 255 means it's failing to read back. That doesn;t always mean it's failing to write them - and your changing of CV29 and it affecting the behavior of the loco pretty much proved that values ARE getting written.
Congrats Tom!
And good going Randy!
I received a reply from Mark @ BLI earlier today. Mark commented that since "Not once did the Manufacturer or Software Version return the correct value", he seems to be suspecting that it's the Paragon2 decoder that's the problem.
Mark also mentioned that since they (BLI) "are on short supply of the Paragon2 decoders...all decoder issues must come here for repair". I'm not sure if that means just the Paragon2 decoder needs to go back...or the entire Dreyfuss. I suspect it's the locomotive and decoder together.
So, I guess it's back to the back shop for repair...
Or if it does run, just hang on to it and run it until after the holidays when I suspect there won't be such a short supply of Paragon II decoders.
I had actually contemplated that already, Randy. I have another locomotive in their back shop for binding drivers and the lead time quoted to me 2 weeks ago on repairing it was 6 weeks.
Maybe I'll ask Mark when he thinks the next shipment of Paragon2 decoders will arrive and mail it in then. Or......if they get enough of them in, whether he can just send me a replacement decoder to swap out for the defective one. I'd be willing to do that myself.
BLI sent me the replacement light board for my Niagara. Worth a try...
Have you checked the tether between the loco and tender? Decoder read back requires good motor contact. The motor might get enough power to run but resistance could be too much for read back. BLI has been known for tether issues. Some of mine had plastic from the molding process in the holes for the pins. My I1sa worked great for awhile until one of the wires broke at the tether plug. Check both ends of the tether. One of my Blueline locos had it wire tied to a cap so tight it broke the wires. Actually crushed the harness.
Checking is cheaper and faster than sending it in.
Thanks for the idea about checking the tethered harness. My guess is that the connection is still good but it would be worth checking anyhow.
I actually have another locomotive in the queue @ BLI for repair already. Mark told me that, if I send the Dreyfuss in, I can just put it under the same RA as the other locomotive and they'll fix them both at the same time.