I visited the local club this weekend and brought 4 of my engines, which all run digitrax decoders. I am not sure what kind of DCC system they have on their layout but in order to consist them they had to program the decoders with JMRI Decoder Pro in an Advance Consist mode giving them the same train number, 43, which is now my assigned train number for future club visits, but they each retained their 4 digit assigned unit number I use at home. They ran great on the layout with no problems at all when consisted. I get home and they dont run on my Digitrax layout, just as I expected. A little reading my Digitrax decoder manual tells me how to turn off the Advanced Consisting mode (CV19 =0) . Now my question is, before I go back to the club and train a consisted train, can I just "turn on" CV19 at home and they retain the train number, 43 or would I need to put them on the JMRI again?
yes reprogramming a value of 43 in each loco (the consist address the club assigned) will work just fine. Use your Digitrax system to program CV19 no need to use JMRI.
At home selecting address 43 would also work. No need to program a Universal consist using your system.
Jack W.
Thanks.. that is what I was hoping.
jalajoie yes reprogramming a value of 43 in each loco (the consist address the club assigned) will work just fine. Use your Digitrax system to program CV19 no need to use JMRI. At home selecting address 43 would also work. No need to program a Universal consist using your system.
Well, I wouldn't do this. Much better to break up the consist before removing the locos from the club track. That way there is no confusion.
You didn't say which DCC system your club has, but I believe that different DCC systems handle the "which engines are in which consist" question differently. NCE, for example, retains the consist number in the command station. So if the value of 43 is put into CV 19 of engines 1000 and 2000, this is what the command station remembers. However when you want to run the consist, you can enter either loco 1000, 2000, or 43. The command station sees this information and, if you select either 1000 or 2000, it does a little computer magic to convert these numbers to 43 and sends the command along to the locos.
Now what happens when you get the locos home and want to run them consisted? You can remember that the consist number is 43, but do you really want to have to do that? Or would you rather operate the consist the normal way by selecting engine numbers? If you want to do this, you're going to have to break up the consist anyway to re-consist them with your home system. And if you happen to want to consist one or more of the original engines with some other engines you own, you're going to have to change something anyway.
The other thing that is problematical is that at the club you have a consist of 4 engines that are not on the railroad. Depending on the club system this could result in 4 loco slots that become unavailable for something else. So if everyone did this the club system could theoretically run out of available loco slots (again this depends upon the club DCC system).
Maxman, I agree with you in general, however I myself have a few sets of consist that are never broken which I run on both an NCE layout and a Digitrax layout. I always run them by their consist number on both systems. When I am through running on the NCE layout I only remove the locos from the tracks, when I am through running on the Digitrax layout I only dispatch the consist number. No problems with slots.
I am not sure what the club has for DCC system.. That I intend to find out so I can learn some of the quirks compaired to my Digitrax System. I run my trains on my layout like you suggested Maxman, I select my top loco and then add each one I want to put in the consist and take them out as needed. Much like the real world. What I was looking for my question was will all my locos now remember they are 43 when I turn on CV 19. This way if I want to run a consist of two GP and run a couple single trains of other locos on the club layout I can set up the Geeps before I leave home.
As for the club running out of numbers. I am not sure that the club is that big but they do keep a spread sheet of assigned numbers. I believe the theory is you can run your unit number but if there is a dupilcate number or running consist, you go to your assigned number.
As has been stated, reprogramming CV19 to a value of 43 will give those locos a consist address of 43. One thing to note, if any of the locos are facing the rear of the consist, you have to add 128 to the value that you program in to CV19, so in this case you would program CV19 to 171 for a loco that is facing the rear.
CSX Robert As has been stated, reprogramming CV19 to a value of 43 will give those locos a consist address of 43. One thing to note, if any of the locos are facing the rear of the consist, you have to add 128 to the value that you program in to CV19, so in this case you would program CV19 to 171 for a loco that is facing the rear.
I'm confused. In the original post it was stated that the decoder instructions told the poster that he could "turn off" CV19. He then asked if when he turned on CV19 the decoder would have retained (or remembered) that the previous value in CV19 was 43. I believe that most of the follow up posts have sort of discussed re-programming CV19.
So, to re-state what I think the original question was, if you turn off CV19 and then turn it back on, will the decoder remember that it was 43 as well as any additional information (such as direction) that had been inputed with the original consisting?
The decoder will not remember what was previously assigned as the consist address. CV19 IS the consist address. Programming CV19 to 0 "turns off" the consist address and the loco goes back to responding to it's original address. To "turn on" the consist address, you have to program a valid consist address into CV19. Valid consist addresses are 1-127. If you want a particular engine to run in reverse, you program the consist address + 128(129-255) into CV19.
If I remember correctly Maxman, you use the NCE's menu system to built your consist. Doing so you can operate the consist either by the consist number or the leading or trailing loco number. Such doing will not make your consist portable to other command station and prevent, when using cab # to run the consist, enforcement of CV21 and 22.
This is why I never use my Power Cab menu to built consist and probably why the OP club's used JMRI instead of the command station. CV19 programming is easy, the first 7bits contains the consist address hence a value of 1-127 only is possible. Bit 8Th contains the direction of travel hence as CSXRobert said a value of 128 must be added to the consist address to reverse the direction of travel. My consists are portable anywhere and only use one slot on a Digitrax system.
Thanks for clarifying on what would need to be done to "turn on" CV19. I would have had to come back and ask that question and thanks again for the reversing the direction of travel instructions. And one more post for CSX Robert and you will be at the big 1000th post
Digitrax does NOT default to using CV19 to make consists - so you select the 'top' loco and 'add' others to the consist. If you physically move the locos to someone else's layout they will not be in consist anymore. Taking them back to your layout, they would still be in consist unless you previously broke it up or reset the command station. NCE defaults to using CV19, and since that is in the decoder, it remains there even if the locos are moved to a different layout. As llong as there is a non-zero value in CV19, that is the address the loco will respond toProgramming and erasing CV19 does not alter the previous address stored in the loco. When CV19 is set back to 0, the locow ill once again respond on whatever address it previously had.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have sets of locos that travel to different layouts and the two club layouts. To simplify things I have them addressed to the same number. With the clubs Lenz system even advance consists are stored in the command station and the locos decoder. It became a pain breaking and making consists at the different layouts I go to. The engines I have addressed the same always run together no matter which layout I take them to. Most are just motor and light decoders. The center units have the lights either not installed or remapped to another function beside 0. My pair of Baldwin switchers and Alco switchers always run long hood forward and the cab lights are remapped to function 1. They always run in pairs on the large yards. My Alco PA/PB with sound are another married pair running the same address. The B has no lights to bother with but the horn and bell are muted so only the A unit blows the horn and rings the bell. On the clubs permanent layout I pull long strings of hoppers with a set of RS3, RSD4 and RS1 pairs. That is six RS units all with one address. This allows me to double head a set of helpers on the hill bringing up the rear is usually an I1sa or 2 depending on how many I bring that night. Speed matching the RS units with the steamers was easier dealing with just 2 addresses instead of eight. I had a hard enough time getting the QSI decoder in the one I1sa to run good with the Paragon 2 decoder in the other I1sa. Once that was done it was easy to make them the same address. Believe it or not they run really good with the six RS units up front.
Pete
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I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
jalajoie If I remember correctly Maxman, you use the NCE's menu system to built your consist. Doing so you can operate the consist either by the consist number or the leading or trailing loco number. Such doing will not make your consist portable to other command station and prevent, when using cab # to run the consist, enforcement of CV21 and 22. This is why I never use my Power Cab menu to built consist and probably why the OP club's used JMRI instead of the command station. CV19 programming is easy, the first 7bits contains the consist address hence a value of 1-127 only is possible. Bit 8Th contains the direction of travel hence as CSXRobert said a value of 128 must be added to the consist address to reverse the direction of travel. My consists are portable anywhere and only use one slot on a Digitrax system.
So, if I understand correctly what you are doing, you are bypassing the command station (whichever manufacturer) consisting process and manually (or with JMRI) programming CV19 in each loco individually. I'm not sure that I would call this advanced consisting, even though you are using CV19.
Because you have programmed each loco outside of the command station you have achieved portability from railroad to railroad if that was your goal. You have this portability because the consist addresses overlap the short addresses, so when you enter loco 43 the command station will make anything with address 43 move. I don't think the command station cares that the 43 is in CV19 or is a short address.
But I think with true advanced consisting you gain the ability to move the consist with the engine number without having to remember what number got put into CV19. This memory thing may not be a problem if you are the only one that runs the consist, or if you have very few sets of consisted locos. But in a club environment where different people may have opportunity to operate the same train, or a home environment where you might have guests, it is much easier to explain to someone that all they have to do is enter the number seen on the side of the loco. Having to refer to crib sheets to see that I enter number 43 to run engines 1000 and 2000, or number 78 to run engines 3000 and 4000, sounds burdensome to me.
And I have to ask since I don't know.....using the referenced consisting method it sounds like you are setting the normal direction of forward travel by using the 128 value. What happens when you reach the end of the line and run around the train to return? Do you have to remember to set the cab to run the train in reverse to get it to move forward? Curiosity, you know.
Using CV19 is the advance consist option and is the most portable. You can set it and take it to any dcc layout. NCE sets CV19 but the controllers refer to the lead loco address, which screws up the portability. You may be able to still use the actual consist address and have it work. There are also a couple of other CV's that you set to get the correct lighting and if you have sound loco's, to get them to respond depending on where they sit in the consist.
Springfield PA
Again I agree with your view Maxman, I operate regularly on two different layouts one is NCE PH-PRO and the other one Digitrax Super Chief. This method of consisting is strictly for portability.
I call it CV19 consisting and I don't know where the term "Advance consisting" comes from. As you already pointed out, there are draw back to that, when we reach the end of the line we have means to turn around the consists.
What's there to turn around? If you set CV21 and CV22 properly for which functions are active on each loco when in a consist, the headlight of the trailing unit will come on when the whole consist runs in reverse, and the headlight of the leading unit will come on when it moves forward, so you'll always have lights at the correct end.
I Randy, at both club we have turning Wye so I use the easy way out.
What I think Maxman was referring to is the double ending consist available with NCE advance consisting. That is at the end of the line, the leading loco becomes trailing and the trailing is now the new leading loco. As if the crew changed unit, the consist is traveling forward not in reverse. A feature Joe Fugate appreciate dearly. This is accomplished with only 2 keystrokes and the recall button..
rrinker Digitrax does NOT default to using CV19 to make consists - so you select the 'top' loco and 'add' others to the consist. If you physically move the locos to someone else's layout they will not be in consist anymore. Taking them back to your layout, they would still be in consist unless you previously broke it up or reset the command station. NCE defaults to using CV19, and since that is in the decoder, it remains there even if the locos are moved to a different layout. As llong as there is a non-zero value in CV19, that is the address the loco will respond toProgramming and erasing CV19 does not alter the previous address stored in the loco. When CV19 is set back to 0, the locow ill once again respond on whatever address it previously had. --Randy
The method you reference is what I do at home. Just select my lead loco and then stack them up as I press the MU + button on my Digitrax throttle.
maxman Having to refer to crib sheets to see that I enter number 43 to run engines 1000 and 2000, or number 78 to run engines 3000 and 4000, sounds burdensome to me.
Having to refer to crib sheets to see that I enter number 43 to run engines 1000 and 2000, or number 78 to run engines 3000 and 4000, sounds burdensome to me.
And yes it does sound like a pain. I know the plan is to upgrade the system and hopefully it will be something where you can just build an MU and not have to mess with CV19 and assign a separate number
Problem is in a club situation, where multiple memebers may have the same locow ith the same cab number - who gets to use the cab number as their address and who has to make up something to use? This requires some sort of agreed upon rules so everyone has a chance to run their loco and not everyone has to always be reprogramming their locos.
The flip the consist around thing was not a big deal with Digitrax because of the dual throttle nature of the DT throttles and the original version of the utility throttle, the BT-1. Any loco in a consist can be addressed by a throttle, but only the lead unit responds to speed and direction commands. When you reach the end of the line and want to go back, rahter than mess with the consist you simply dial up the trailing unit on the second knob (the one that will now be the lead unit heading the other way) and use that for the horn and bell and so forth, so sounds come out of the correct end. COntrol of speed is still on the old lead unit, now trailing, but that doesn't really matter. THis is 10x more complicated to write than it is to actually just do. In fact, after buiulding a consist you probably still have the trailing unit on the second knob as it was probably the last address added to the consist.
If there ever was a thread designed to scare away anyone who was thinking of changing from DC to DCC, this would be the one.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet If there ever was a thread designed to scare away anyone who was thinking of changing from DC to DCC, this would be the one.
This sound much more complicated than it really is. I think it shows there are more than one way to do something with DCC.
You and I know that, but some poor newbie who doesn't even know what CV stands for is reading his computer with his eyeballs spinning independently and has just decided that DCC is WAY over his head and cannot possibly be worth all that trouble.
rrinker Problem is in a club situation, where multiple memebers may have the same locow ith the same cab number - who gets to use the cab number as their address and who has to make up something to use? This requires some sort of agreed upon rules so everyone has a chance to run their loco and not everyone has to always be reprogramming their locos. The flip the consist around thing was not a big deal with Digitrax because of the dual throttle nature of the DT throttles and the original version of the utility throttle, the BT-1. Any loco in a consist can be addressed by a throttle, but only the lead unit responds to speed and direction commands. When you reach the end of the line and want to go back, rahter than mess with the consist you simply dial up the trailing unit on the second knob (the one that will now be the lead unit heading the other way) and use that for the horn and bell and so forth, so sounds come out of the correct end. COntrol of speed is still on the old lead unit, now trailing, but that doesn't really matter. THis is 10x more complicated to write than it is to actually just do. In fact, after buiulding a consist you probably still have the trailing unit on the second knob as it was probably the last address added to the consist. --Randy
A large club I know, members must use the first 2 digits of their membership number plus some other gimmick to assign ID to their locos. Like you said some rules must be enforced, We are far from loco cab number or assigned consist number. The prototype uses train numbers instead of loco cab.
In flipping the consist with NCE and Digitrax, I see 2 differences. With NCE it takes 3 keystrokes with Digitrax it takes 4 keystrokes, With NCE the consist is always traveling forward either way. With Digitrax it travels forward one way and reverse the other way. Otherwise as you said it is the same.
Best thing to do is not have locos consisted prior to taking them to another layout, wait and consist on their layout using their system. And before leaving, unconsist them.
I frequently have people ask to bring their locos to an ops session and I always tell them to not consist prior. In the example, I already have a consist with 43 as the address, so you can't use that. I keep 125 and 126 reserved for visitors. I use NCE and have approximately 60 consists (2 or 3 locos) on the layout at any one time.
Larry
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Phoebe Vet You and I know that, but some poor newbie who doesn't even know what CV stands for is reading his computer with his eyeballs spinning independently and has just decided that DCC is WAY over his head and cannot possibly be worth all that trouble.
Dont let this thread scare you away, DCC is almost idiot proof and DCC is very easy.. the hardest part is getting familar with your throttle.. Once you set up train ID's- off you go railroading. I have been MRRing for about a year now and 10 months and have not had to play with the CV's. And like was stated above, it shows the DCC has many ways of doing something. This way you can assign a temp ID to your train via CV19 and go to other layouts but still retain your original ID and set ups when you go home. And if you are not taking your trains to other layouts that require a temp ID, you wont even have to mess with CV19.
jalajoie Again I agree with your view Maxman, I operate regularly on two different layouts one is NCE PH-PRO and the other one Digitrax Super Chief. This method of consisting is strictly for portability. I call it CV19 consisting and I don't know where the term "Advance consisting" comes from. As you already pointed out, there are draw back to that, when we reach the end of the line we have means to turn around the consists.
Advance Consisting is a recognized term in the industry. It basically identifies storing the consist using CV19 and does not rely on the command station. The other 2 types are setting the loco's to the same address, and command station managed, where the station keeps track of the loco's in the consist and sends commands to each one individually.