turnouts

[rrinker]

 Cue me as one of the "handlaying isn't for everyone". I haven't given up totally, but the rate I turned out a decent turnout vs the ones that came out looking not so great (but I will say they WORKED just fine) using the Fast Tracks fixtures menas it would have taken me several years to make the dozen or so turnouts I need for my current layout. Since I had great luck with Atlas on my last layout, I went back to them for this one. I don;t have any wierd bumping or shorting issues, and my trains take them at 'warp speed' in both directions without derailing.

 For control, I was previously a Tortoise die-hard. Simple, reliable, and easy to hook up. But they've increased greatly in price recently. I decided to try somethign new this time. I'm using RC plane servos, and controllers made by Tam Valley Depot. I am using probably the most UN-economical option, the Singlet, but I wanted to avoid all sorts of extra wires running to the turnouts and I have few laces where I have 4 turnouts in close proximity to make use of the Quads. The Singlet gives you pushbuttons and LEDs for the fascia AND it's also a DCC stationary decoder. You do NOT need DCC to use these, they will run off a 12-15V power supply as well.I'm not a big fan of using DCC throttles to operate turnouts, it's awkward at best on any system - however I may at some point build a dispatcher panel using JMRI. SO I'm all set, handy local control with indicators on my fascia PLUS a DCC option.

                    --Randy

 

[tomikawaTT]

NeO6874

very good overview rich .

I'm personally torn between Walthers/Shinohara (Atlas are OK,  but I need true #4 and true #5 in a few places -- Atlas #4 are more like 4.5 or so) and hand-laying the ones I need.  From what I've been able to gather from the guys here, and from old MRR articles the hand-laid route isn't that difficult -- it just takes practice.

Cue Chuck (tomikawatt) and his "handlay them" vote, hahaha .

And now I'm going to shock you.  Handlaying ISN'T for everyone.  If you were born a Thalidomide baby you might need to learn how to foot-lay specialwork.  And then there are those who have three left thumbs on each hand, to whom holding a spoon is a challenge...

For the rest of us, handlaying is no more of a challenge than any other unfamiliar manual skill.  For a quick and dirty how-to, click on my screen name, then enter "definitely not patented" (quotation marks included) in the Search for posts by tomikawaTT block.  Disregard all 2010 dates, they are references similar to this.

In the interests of speed, I purchased samples of most of the commercially available turnouts when I moved to my present home.  All have since been donated to local Boy Scouts chasing merit badges, having failed my tests for appearance (I've never seen a bent switch tie on a prototype - anywhere) and operational dependability.  Now, as my snail-like progress encounters a site for a turnout (or a station throat with six #5 double slips and a crossing) I simply draw it full-size on cardstock, put down the appropriate (straight!) ties and build it in place.  Since I check continuously, I have no problem maintaining proper track gauge.  Some of my hand-lays have been in more or less continuous operation since 1980, with zero problems.

On to switch machines.  I use a system which needs LOTS of electrical contacts (hot frogs plus track power routing and signals.)  Switches can be controlled from three possible places - a main panel from which I can operate through trains over the entire railroad, zone panels which allow operation at a single location (with pass-along capability to the adjacent zone panels) and local control of manual and power-operated switches which have to be thrown 'up close and personal' when switching.  For power switches I have been using twin coils, RIX and (ancient) KTM.  Future construction (and possibly some retrofits) are leaning toward the Tortoise stall motor type.  It's possible to put LED panel indicators (and local dwarfs) in series with the Tortoise power leads, saving the need for contacts for those purposes and leaving the built-in DPDT contacts for frog and track power control.  For manually-controlled switches (industrial spurs and similar) I connect the points to an electrical switch at the layout edge with a simple mechanical linkage - fishing leader, in tension to pull the points to the less-used position, with a weight to pull them to the normal position when the switch-to-points line is slack.

While there is an understandable desire to run the entire railroad from a central location, experience has shown me that it's more fun to move along with your train.  This also allows much more flexibility in designing benchwork - my present layout is a rolled-up dogbone, and there are parts of it that can't be seen from the central panel without some stretching and neck-craning.  My towns are compact - I model a prototype which ran short trains of short cars - and everything in town can be seen from the zone panel controlling it.

Incidentally, since you are starting fresh, you should give DCC a serious look.  I don't use it, but that's because I have a large roster of ancient motive power, almost all still equipped with their original open-frame juice-hog motors.  With DCC, moving along with your train pretty much comes with the territory.  It doesn't involve the somewhat complex wiring of my version of the MZL system.

Aside to Rich.  This isn't a DCC forum.  It's a layout electricals forum.  When Bergie was setting it up, I recommended calling it Layout Electrical and Electronic - bit DCC got stuck in, so half the analog DC questions end up elsewhere.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL sytem, handlaid specialwork)

[selector]

I can only offer my own experience, and that is with Peco Code 83 insulfrog #6 turnouts and with handlaid #8's using the Fast Tracks system.  I like both immensely, although the Peco turnouts don't have what I would term realistic points rails.  They are very thin blades, really.  But other than that, they are excellent and reliable.  I like their overcenter spring.

You have to experience a well-made Fast Tracks turnout to appreciate all they offer.  They speak for themselves.

Crandell

[fwright]

ccg

I am ready to start replacing all of my 35 year old turnouts, I could use some advice on what I should use.

I want remote control, and normally open and normally closed contacts on the switch machines. I can use either above or under table operators.

I am not familure with any of the modern equipment, as I only got into ho scale railroading last march....

corbyn city george  (ccg)

I am trying to read between the lines for the background you are coming from when you say "I only got into HO scale railroading last March...".  Are you coming from Lionel and 3 rail O, or do you have prior experience in HO?  Also the reason for replacing your 35 year old turnouts - what do you have, and what is wrong with them?

"Remote control, and normally open and closed contacts on the switch machines.  I can use either above or under table operators".  It sounds like you have a central control panel in mind, possibly with lights indicating turnout direction.

The reason I ask these question is try to figure out your real goals and plans.  Having come from a Lionel/3 rail background myself, the natural tendency is to do things similarly to what you did before.  But scale model railroading offers a wide variety of easily implemented ways to operate and control, some of which look nothing like traditional toy train or train set schemes.

Specifically, many scale modelers prefer to walk around the layout controlling their trains as they go.  You hold a throttle in your hand.  With this style of operation, turnouts can be easily operated manually, with the throw being at the turnout or at the edge of the layout - your preference.  You can also use switch machines, too - and mix and match to please your comfort in operation.  Electrical contacts can be mounted or come with manual throws as well as with some switch machines.  Unless you are doing night switching operations, the need to have indicator lights pretty much goes away with walk around control - you can see which way the turnout is thrown.

If a central control panel and seated-in-one-place operations are your preference, then the switch machine, lights, and contacts route makes a lot of sense.

Traditional 2 coil switch machines with multiple sets of contacts aren't in current production that I know of.  There is still plenty of stock being sold on eBay at decent prices (Kemtron, NJI, Rix, Lindsay are brands you might come across).  Many HO and N folks have shifted to a stall motor switch machine (Tortoise or equivalent).  Depending on the maker these come with or can be equipped with your electrical contacts.

As for turnouts, Atlas, Peco, Walters/Shinohara, and Micro-Engineering are the most common brands of commercial turnouts discussed.  Atlas and Peco Insulfrog turnouts have always had insulated (dead or unpowered) frogs.  These are considered easier to wire because you don't have to worry about gapping the frog.  Newer W/S or ME turnouts also have unpowered frogs.

Whether or not you need to power your frogs really depends on the equipment you operate.  Newer 4 or 6 axle diesels and newer medium to large steam have enough electrical pickup that you don't need powered frogs.  OTOH, older and small engines tend to stall on dead frogs, especially at low speeds.  A live frog should have an electrical contact assigning the correct polarity of power.  Some turnouts use the points and point hinges to route power to the frog, but this has generally proved less than 100% reliable over time.  Most of today's turnouts with unpowered frogs have made provision to power them without too much difficulty.

I use Atlas and Shinohara (HOn3) turnouts to get things running early, with the rest of my turnouts being hand laid.  Atlas turnout quality and longevity has been inconsistent over the years.  Grommets and/or point hinges have had a tendency to loosen over time, making electrical contact erratic.  Newer versions with stamped instead of machined points also seem to have issues.  But many Atlas turnouts have been totally problem free.  I've not really tried enough of other brands to say what their issues are.

The ultimate in high quality, low-cost turnouts are hand laid.  The Fast Tracks jigs are expensive, but do a great job of holding your hand while learning how to hand lay turnouts.  Fast Tracks didn't exist when I learned so I can't say from personal experience here, either.  I just learned from a Model Railroader article and doing.  The 1st one worked fine, and the 2nd looked much better.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

[locoi1sa]

  Welcome back to the hobby.

 Peco insulfrogs are great in that all you have to do is install them. No speacial wiring or switch machine not needed with the over center spring action. Hand laid is also a viable solution and there is plenty of sources for hand laying supplies. Proto 87 stores, Central valley turnout kits, and Fast tracks are just a few. Atlas, micro Engineering, Walthers/Shinohara, and BK enterprises offer turnouts in every conceivable configuration you may need.

  You mentioned the turnouts, but how about rail? Are you running nickle silver rail or is it brass? Nickle silver stays cleaner than brass.

     Pete

[Hamltnblue]

If I had that many to replace I'd consider trying hand laid. I'm sure the amount of money saved would more than pay for the jigs.  Fast Tracks is mentioned here quite often. Here's a link to them.

http://www.handlaidtrack.com/

[NeO6874]

very good overview rich .

I'm personally torn between Walthers/Shinohara (Atlas are OK,  but I need true #4 and true #5 in a few places -- Atlas #4 are more like 4.5 or so) and hand-laying the ones I need.  From what I've been able to gather from the guys here, and from old MRR articles the hand-laid route isn't that difficult -- it just takes practice.

 

Cue Chuck (tomikawatt) and his "handlay them" vote, hahaha .

[mobilman44]

Hi!

As Rich indicated, you will get lots of opinions and advice on this.   Soooo, here is mine.

I'm currently building a two level medium sized HO layout.  It replaces one I had from 93-08.  I used Atlas turnouts on both.  My new layout is DCC, and I found some of the older generation Atlas turnouts caused operating problems, so they were replaced.  By older generation I mean those built in the '70s or early '80s.  I use all code 100 trackage, mainly because that is what I had.  If I were younger (I'm 66), I believe I would use code 83.  Code 100 is a bit easier to handle, less expensive, and with weathering looks fine.

My last layout was #4 and #6 turnouts, this one is #6 and the new #8s with a few #4s in the yard.  The previousl layout used above and below Atlas switch machines that lasted for the duration of the layout.  Yes, the above table machines can be unsightly, but I learned to camoflage the pretty well.

Ok, why Atlas?   Well, they make a quality product and an excellent value.  They are readily available and cost half of what the higher priced ones cost.  If money is not a constraint, there are several other choices, and from what I hear they are all pretty good and some extremely realistic.

For controls, the Atlas machines are about 2/3 the price of the Tortoise.  If you have the money, and don't mind working under the layout, go with them.

Oh, I also have some Caboose Industries manual throws (get the sprung kind) for near at hand Atlas turnouts too.

[richhotrain]

ccg,

You don't mention whether you are operating in DC or DCC, but I will assume that you are operating in DCC since you posted in this forum. 

You will get plenty of responses to your questions all right, and these responses will differ depending upon the preferences and experiences of those responding.  So, let me tell you what I have done on my DCC-powered layout.

I have a mix of Code 83 and Code 100 track.  I use Atlas Custom Line turnouts in both Code 83 and Code 100.  I use both the #4 and the #6 turnout, although the bulk of my turnouts are #6 because the #4 turnouts have a tighter angle on the divergent track and steam engines and 6 axle diesels are more prone to derailments on tight curves.  The Atlas Custom Line turnouts work extremely well and they are inexpensive compared to other turnouts. 

Now, others will insist on Peco and other brands.  Different opinions will be offered on "dead" frogs and "live" frogs.  Still others will tell you to hand lay your turnouts.  I can only tell you that in my experience, the use of Atlas Custom Line DCC-friendly turnouts are a very good way to go.  Again, they are inexpensive, trouble free, and easy to install and wire.

As far as switch machines go, I use Tortoise under table switch machines and many other of our fellow model railroaders use these switch machines as well.  I wire the switch machines to a DC transformer and use DPDT switches on a control panel to operate the switches.  Tortoises are relatively easy to install and provide accurate trouble free operation. 

Others may suggest Atlas under table switch machines.  I started out with those switch machines and quickly abandoned them.   They are way too finicky to install and operate, IMHO, and do not perform well.  Personally, I would not recommend Atlas under table switch machines.  On the other hand, the version of the Atlas switch machines that mount on top of the layout are more reliable but do not appear prototypical at all.

There, that ought to get you started.  Let's see what others have to say.

Rich

[ccg]

I am ready to start replacing all of my 35 year old turnouts, I could use some advice on what I should use.

I want remote control, and normally open and normally closed contacts on the switch machines. I can use either above or under table operators.

I am not familure with any of the modern equipment, as I only got into ho scale railroading last march.

I am going to need 27 turnouts. I could use all of the help I can get to make the right choice.

HELP

corbyn city george  (ccg)