Yesterday I was running trains with a friend on my layout, and we started having power problems. We had two Walthers Trainline GP15-1 units consisted with an Atlas SD35 rolling past the yard with a heavy manifest and a Proto 2000 SW9 switching the yard.
The GP15s and SD35 are all DCC, while the SW9 is decoderless running on channel 00. No sound-equipped units are on the railroad, and four DCC-equipped locomotives were also sitting on the tracks, not selected by any throttles or moving, with no functions active. The layout has a 115 foot run (plus another 50 feet or so in sidings and yard trackage), a 14 gauge track bus with feeders every 6 feet, all powered by a single Digitrax Zephyr. You can find a track plan and more info at my website.
As the train were rolling along smoothly, suddenly all the locomotives shut off for about a quarter of a second and then started moving again. We kept moving some more, and the next time it happened I was watching the Digitrax Zephyr I use to power the railroad and serve as the DCC base station. The "short circuit" indicator flashed across the screen as the locomotives died and disappeared as track power came back online.
I have had past problems with the SD35 so I removed it from the tracks and set it aside. The problem persisted. I stopped running the SW9 and the GP15s ran fine by themselves. I have never had this problem when running one or two two units by themselves, but whenever I get more than three units moving at once it happens. This exact problem at my last operating session led me to replace the old 18 gauge track bus with 14 gauge wire, which I was told on this board should solve the problem.
Now that a heavier bus wire didn't solve the problem, I am forced to move to the conclusion that I need a booster. There's a lot of track that needs to be powered, and during operating sessions I may eventually need to have up to six locomotives moving at once. And allowing my operators to bring sound-equipped locos to sessions will be nice too.
Currently my Digitrax Zephyr puts out 2.5 amps. I have a few options for boosters - another Zephyr or a 5 amp combination booster and DCC command station. An 8 amp booster is available for $20 but would be extreme overkill. The Zephyr and 5 amp booster/command station are actually the same price and I'd rather have the extra power than another stationary throttle.
The plan I present to you for a sanity check is to purchase a DB150 booster and use that to power and control the layout as the main power supply and DCC command station. The Zephyr would be a slave throttle and booster that would power the yard as a separate power district. I saved all the money from my summer job for this kind of capitol expense and the extra power should also ease my problems caused by perpetually dirty track in an unfinished basement.
Thanks in advance for your feedback!
You can test the wiring issues with the quarter test, with nothing on the layout take a quarter and set it on the rails at the furthest point from the Zephyr. Just set it on the track, don;t press down. The Zephyr should indicate a short - if not, you're still getting too much voltage drop to that section of track. Otherwise, 4 locos should not be that muich of a strain on the Zephyr, especially non-sound.
That said, I am adding a DB150 to my layout. The Zephyr will be the command station - I don;t plan to ever run more than 10 locos. The DB150 will be configured as a slave booster. This way I still have the dedicated program track with CV readback of the Zephyr. The DB150 powers all my track, via a PM42. The Zephyr's output will run another bus around my layotu to run the stationary decoders for turnouts.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It passed the quarter trick just fine. I've also never had any problem with power shortage anywhere on the layout EXCEPT for the Zephyr shutting down with 4+ locos (or three that use a lot of power, like the GP15s) all running at once.
Thanks for the input on using the Zephyr as the command station. I also don't plan to run more than 10 locomotives and didn't realize the DB150 couldn't read CVs.
I'm not going to go with a PM42 because it's expensive and my layout doesn't need four districts, but I can wire up the Zephyr and DB150 as two power districts without any other hardware, correct?
Yes, just put gaps in all rails between the two districts. And don;t forget a decent thickness wire between the ground terminals on the Zephyr and DB150.
You migh end up having to pop the lid of the DB150 and adjusting the track voltage - if you get a new one it should have a small potentiometer inside for the fine adjustment (besides the switch on the outside for N HO or O/G scale.) since the Zephyr's track voltage doesn't exactly match up with the 3 options on the DB150. The Zephyr comes out somewhere between the N and HO settings on the DB150 - so yours trains will change speed crossing from one district to the other. Not a lot but it probably will be noticeable. For example, I usually use a 1K resistor for the LEDs with my decoders - at the Zephyrs track voltage that is about 9ma for the LED - which is rate at 20ma. On the DB150 at the HO setting I notice they are brighter - even though it's only up to maybe 11ma. About a volt and a half difference or so - you will see the difference in speed. The adjustment in the DB150 will allow you to fine tune it and make them exactly the same.
My turnouts are all Atlas, #4 and #6. My metal wheels get checked every once in a while and they have always been in gauge. And come to think of it, the last time this was happening, one of the trains was in the yard.
But why would this only happen when there's 4+ locos running at once? I run the railroad quite a bit, especially in the yard, and have never had this happen when there was only one locomotive moving.
Your Zephyr is a 2-1/2 amp system. Running four locos can draw more power than the Zephyr can supply and will cause it to overheat and shut down (not a short) until it cools off a little. I have seen this happen on my clubs layout with a 5 amp Super Empire builder with a DB150 and a Super Chief with an 8 amp DCS 200 (both on the same layout , not at the same time). Both times there were no beeps from the command station, everything just stopped. Six loco's with sound, and some lighted passenger cars with the DB150 and a few more with the DCS200. The only other indication was the track power light got dim. I put a 12 volt chassis fan to blow air across the heatsink fins and it hasn't happened again. According to Digitrax, this will happen when you get close to the current limits of the command station.
TrainManTy Yesterday I was running trains with a friend on my layout, and we started having power problems. We had two Walthers Trainline GP15-1 units consisted with an Atlas SD35 rolling past the yard with a heavy manifest and a Proto 2000 SW9 switching the yard. The GP15s and SD35 are all DCC, while the SW9 is decoderless running on channel 00. No sound-equipped units are on the railroad, and four DCC-equipped locomotives were also sitting on the tracks, not selected by any throttles or moving, with no functions active. The layout has a 115 foot run (plus another 50 feet or so in sidings and yard trackage), a 14 gauge track bus with feeders every 6 feet, all powered by a single Digitrax Zephyr. You can find a track plan and more info at my website. As the train were rolling along smoothly, suddenly all the locomotives shut off for about a quarter of a second and then started moving again. We kept moving some more, and the next time it happened I was watching the Digitrax Zephyr I use to power the railroad and serve as the DCC base station. The "short circuit" indicator flashed across the screen as the locomotives died and disappeared as track power came back online. I have had past problems with the SD35 so I removed it from the tracks and set it aside. The problem persisted. I stopped running the SW9 and the GP15s ran fine by themselves. I have never had this problem when running one or two two units by themselves, but whenever I get more than three units moving at once it happens. This exact problem at my last operating session led me to replace the old 18 gauge track bus with 14 gauge wire, which I was told on this board should solve the problem. Now that a heavier bus wire didn't solve the problem, I am forced to move to the conclusion that I need a booster. There's a lot of track that needs to be powered, and during operating sessions I may eventually need to have up to six locomotives moving at once. And allowing my operators to bring sound-equipped locos to sessions will be nice too. Currently my Digitrax Zephyr puts out 2.5 amps. I have a few options for boosters - another Zephyr or a 5 amp combination booster and DCC command station. An 8 amp booster is available for $20 but would be extreme overkill. The Zephyr and 5 amp booster/command station are actually the same price and I'd rather have the extra power than another stationary throttle. The plan I present to you for a sanity check is to purchase a DB150 booster and use that to power and control the layout as the main power supply and DCC command station. The Zephyr would be a slave throttle and booster that would power the yard as a separate power district. I saved all the money from my summer job for this kind of capitol expense and the extra power should also ease my problems caused by perpetually dirty track in an unfinished basement. Thanks in advance for your feedback!
Yes, a booster will help you. I have a DB150, a DCS100 and an 8A DB200+ with 12 power districts. I bought the 8A unit as my last booster because it was onl;y $20 more. I have it limited to 6A right now due to the power supply powering it. I have run upwards of 20 locomotives simultaneously but more importantly, I can run a number of units in the same district without popping a breaker. What you didn't mention was whether you were going toa dd any additional power protection ? You could get away with two, as long as the total load in a district doesn't exceed your booster output. If it does, you may need to further segment your layout into smaller districts. Me having 12 was overkill but I wanted short bus runs and I didn't ever want to rewire in the future.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I agree with David, go back and have another look before blowing money on a booster. What error code did the Zephyr display? Walking oooo's is a short circuit. Walking 11111's is a current overload. See page 32 in your manual. If you were seeing a current overload, you probably need a larger booster. Large amounts of track don't need power, just large amounts of load (engines, etc.).
Walking zeros means a short circuit. More power won't solve that. I'd look long and hard at the switcher in the yard.
Martin Myers
yep Im with david too,have a zepher and had the same type problems as yours ,wheels not in gauge ,and problems with alot of used ebay rolling stock, the kind with metal trucks ,.....now Im not joking here but I got 150' of track just thumb tacked down to bench work (not good with track plans) ,I do have a #14 buse but only feeders @ 8' soldered to jointers no other solder joints yet and Ive run all my sound equipment @ the SAME TIME with out a glitch .....thats ab f7,aa f3,2gp7, 2atlas rs3 all w /trains plenty a power from the zepher, add some cheap used box cars with metal trucks and every once and a while every thing would stop then start again . changed out the old metal trucks to plastic W/metal wheels, problem gone.......wish I could remember why the old metal trucks were shorting ,but I think it was @ a #8 crossover ....any how its surprizing how many loccos the little zepher can power..Jerry
TrainManTy...the SW9 is decoderless running on channel 00...
TrainManTy...I stopped running the SW9 and the GP15s ran fine by themselves. I have never had this problem when running one or two two units by themselves, but whenever I get more than three units moving at once it happens...
Have you ever had this problem without the SW9 on the layout? Some DC locos do not play well with zero stretching. In fact, some will even show a short as soon as they are placed on the track even if there are no other engines on the track.
TrainManTy...the extra power should also ease my problems caused by perpetually dirty track in an unfinished basement...
Sorry, but the extra power will not help with problems caused by dirty track.
"What error code did the Zephyr display? Walking oooo's is a short circuit. Walking 11111's is a current overload."
A few years ago when I was running a Zepyhr I had a similar problem. My Zepyhr displayed running zeros on overload. I'm not sure there is any difference between an overload and a short circuit. It would seem the DC locomotive is your problem. I have a DC steam locomotive that does the same thing with my 5 amp boosters.
How about installing a $20 decoder in the offending loco?
I would also recommend a 5 amp booster if you intend to run sound equipped locos. By the way, the length of your trackage has little or nothing to do with the ampacity of your booster. It is the total current required by the trains that determines the size of your booster(s). Don't forget to count the current required by lighting on the train, particularly passenger cars.
Running a DC engine on your DCC system is not a good idea. Even though Digitrax has made provisions for it, it can cause problems. 4 'modern' HO engines will not draw enough power to overload the Zephyr. When running a DC engine at address '0'(zero stretching mode), the DC engine used up a lot of the 'bandwidth' and DCC commands to your DCC engines may get delayed. The result can be 'stuttering' and loss of control. Many clubs have banned DC operation on their DCC layouts for this reason. My club has even asked members to disable 'analog' capability in engine decoders(CV29). We have disabled analog compatibility in our DCS200/DB200 command stations and boosters. If your DCC engine runs into dirty track, it may see the signal as DC and you could lose control of your engine. Turning off DC/analog operation in the decoder will not allow it to make a false switch to DC operation. I have noticed that the current version(2.10) of JMRI/Decoder Pro even defaults to analog 'off' when setting up an engine on the programming track.
In the case of your DC switcher, I suspect that it may have an intermittent short that is causing the Zephyr to sense a problem. Why not add a decoder to that engine and see what happens?
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Okay, I'm getting three competing theories and I'm not sure which one I should be listening to. Let me try to answer your questions first.
I *think* I was seeing walking oooo's - it flashed across the screen so quick I could barely tell. At the time of the short, everything moving was doing so only across switches lined for the straight, trailing position. And all the frogs are plastic - should be pretty hard to short with nothing derailed, right?
As for the SW9, the last time we were having this short was when there were three DCC-equipped locomotives moving, another two or three DCC-equipped locos sitting on the tracks, but no DC locos on the layout.
I'm going to grab every DCC-equipped loco I have and do some tests. I'll run them on the switches, on regular track, and see if I can repeat the problem. If I can't, I'll try adding the SW9 to see what happens. I'll report back soon.
I ran some tests with a bunch of DCC-equipped engines, and here's my results and tentative hypothesis:
With four DCC engines all moving at once (the two GP15s, a GP18, and a GP7), running normally does not short in my experience. When two of them are traveling over the switches, the display will occasionally flash "ooo's" but nothing stops moving.
In trying to juggle running four locomotives at high power (speed) in a relatively short yard, I did some rather unrealistic quick starts and stops. I found out that when you quickly throttle up to full speed (fast enough to spin the wheels before starting to move) with the GP15 consist, the display will show a short but the locos will not stop. Aha, a short in the loco, I thought. I tried it with one loco at a time, but no short.
With the other two locomotives moving at a good clip, starting both GP15s will short the display, and once the SW9 was added (creeping along a side track using more power) that same activity was enough to short the display AND STOP TRAINS. Yes, I tested the GP15s to make sure it wasn't an internal short, and yes, I tried the UT4 and the Zephyr's throttle to make sure it wasn't a throttle problem.
My hypothesis is thus: Quick increases in power usage tricks the Zephyr into thinking there is a short circuit. The more power draw being used altogether, the more it is fooled. That's why with one locomotive it doesn't even notice, but with three moving and two revving up, it shuts down track power. That's also why I think it's shorting on switches, because of my plastic frogs and those points that never really get totally clean - the flywheels and other loco in the consist keep it moving, but that sudden jump in current draw - with enough other draw around the layout - can be enough to trick the Zephyr.
My question to you is - is this feasible? And since power does not seem to be the problem, would adding more power districts - less power draw per circuit breaker - solve this?
Ditrty track and palstic frogs won;t make a short. A stall, but not a short. Out of gauge wheels can short on turnouts though.
Sudden starts, from dead stop to full power, will cause the maximum current draw short of holdign the motor shaft stalled - perhaps the GP15 draws too much current. If it alone can cause the Zephyr to show a short or overload, it might be drawing too much for the decoder. You could always put a low number, 1-3, in CV3 so there is a slight amount of acceleration momentum so it can never go from 0 to full speed 'instantly'.
It is possible for it to be a short, since the entire motor shaft and gear train will shift one way or the other under hard starts and stops - although if there is that much play in the gears, it will do it under even moderate acceleration, and even slow acceleration if there is a decent sized train hooked up.
Walking zeros, or walking ones, doesn't make much difference. If you are drawing too much power, it would appear the same as a short to the Zephyr. All my locos have sound, and I can run four. When I try to run five, the power cuts out intermidantly. If I run the passenger train with lights in it, three locos are the limit. Somehow, you are exceeding the limits of the Zephyr system.
rrinker It is possible for it to be a short, since the entire motor shaft and gear train will shift one way or the other under hard starts and stops - although if there is that much play in the gears, it will do it under even moderate acceleration, and even slow acceleration if there is a decent sized train hooked up.
Is this common enough that two different locomotives (the GP15s were not on the property the last time this was happening in March - the locomotives in question were a Proto 2000 GP7 and two Atlas B40-8s, all with DCC, no sound) could have this same problem, with slow acceleration and a heavy train?
hobo9941 Walking zeros, or walking ones, doesn't make much difference. If you are drawing too much power, it would appear the same as a short to the Zephyr. All my locos have sound, and I can run four. When I try to run five, the power cuts out intermidantly. If I run the passenger train with lights in it, three locos are the limit. Somehow, you are exceeding the limits of the Zephyr system.
This is contrary to what everyone else has told me so far, except the other two operators who told me the exact same thing after experiencing the problem...who should I be listening to?
---------------------------
What I really want to know is - can a sudden change in current draw fool the Zephyr into thinking there's a short? Or is it a short inside an overstrained locomotive mechanism?
Probably not on an Atlas, the drives in them are quite good. Proto Geeps have a good bit of play - on the level you don't notice it but on a grade they tend to buck. None of mine have ever shorted out though.
You definitely have some issues. I've run as many as 8 locos at once on my Zephyr, 4 had sound and 4 were just motor decoders. I've never tried this with one being a DC loco on address 00. I'd consider pickign one, one that runs best, and run it at crawl speed over the entire layout. If it shorts or stalls, fix that area - it could be dirty track if it stalls, or wheel or track gauge problems, or even just some debris like a lost track nail if it shorts. Under no circumstance barring a failure in the loco itself should a single typical HO loco overload the Zephyr.
As for 0's or 1's, I suspect it takes some very specific conditions to get 1's instead of 0's. I have no idea what the threshold would be, but anything over 2.5 amps is an overload - but a short is also drawing over 2.5 amps. I suspect the difference would be in how fast the excessive current ramps of - slowly reaching and then exceeding 2.5 amps would be the overlaod and 1's, sudden increase would be a short and the 0's. This is all a guess on my part, I have no wy to know how the code inside the Zephyr actually works.
rrinker I'd consider pickign one, one that runs best, and run it at crawl speed over the entire layout. If it shorts or stalls, fix that area - it could be dirty track if it stalls, or wheel or track gauge problems, or even just some debris like a lost track nail if it shorts. Under no circumstance barring a failure in the loco itself should a single typical HO loco overload the Zephyr.
I'd consider pickign one, one that runs best, and run it at crawl speed over the entire layout. If it shorts or stalls, fix that area - it could be dirty track if it stalls, or wheel or track gauge problems, or even just some debris like a lost track nail if it shorts. Under no circumstance barring a failure in the loco itself should a single typical HO loco overload the Zephyr.
While I'll admit my track doesn't have the best track record (and is still far from perfect), the tests detailed at the bottom of page 1 and the original problem were conducted on track which no locomotive has had problems with. I've had both DC and DCC locomotives crawling at slow-speed switching and have not seen a single short. During the tests when I was able to reproduce the problem, all of my power that I've had intermittent shorting problems with (an Atlas SD35) and all DC locomotives were off the tracks.
No single locomotive has overloaded the Zephyr during my tests - I was only able to accomplish that with two locomotives at almost full throttle and another two going from off to full throttle quickly, supporting your theory below about an overload.
rrinker As for 0's or 1's, I suspect it takes some very specific conditions to get 1's instead of 0's. I have no idea what the threshold would be, but anything over 2.5 amps is an overload - but a short is also drawing over 2.5 amps. I suspect the difference would be in how fast the excessive current ramps of - slowly reaching and then exceeding 2.5 amps would be the overlaod and 1's, sudden increase would be a short and the 0's. This is all a guess on my part, I have no wy to know how the code inside the Zephyr actually works.
Assuming your guess and my theory about the Zephyr confusing a quick overload for a short are correct, would dividing the layout into four power districts with a PM42 solve the problem? Or do I actually have a power shortage?
You can, but be sure to read this app note on settign the PM42 and Zephyr to work together:
http://www.digitrax.com/appnote_pm42_dcs50sync.php
1.5A per section is a little light but you can;t go higher because the Zephyr itself is only 2.5A. Maybe just bite the bullet and do what I did, I have a DB150 configured as a booster powering the track through a PM42 giving me 4 sections, at the default trip level of 3 amps. The Zephyr is my command station. I doubt I run enough locos for me to need 5 amps, but it there and works.
Tyler, could there be something wrong with your Zephyr? I know you been told this, but if everything is right you should be able run 8 engines. While my SEB was down, I ran 4 engines with my Bachmann E Z Command.
I would give Digitrax a call my self.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I think I'll shoot Digitrax an email on Thursday before I go out and buy some more expensive stuff. Just in case it's a problem with the Zephyr.
If there is a problem, now is the time to get it sent in. From shipping the DT 400 to getting it back was 6 days.
Ken
Not trying to be smart here, but the way to solve the problem, is to stop trying to run a dc loco on a DCC system, even if the instructions say you can.
hobo9941 Not trying to be smart here, but the way to solve the problem, is to stop trying to run a dc loco on a DCC system, even if the instructions say you can.
That's why when I performed my test (and repeated the problem successfully) there was no DC locomotive anywhere on the layout. Trust me, I wish it were that simple.