Hello All
After checking out a couple of local clubs I decided I'll be joining one. I noted that both clubs were running Digitrax so I decided to switch. I think it will take some time to properly pronounce the "D" word. I'll also be asking some questions during the learning curve. I've been running my NCE Phpro for just over a year and a half and the radio add just under a year and a half. Learning with NCE was as simple as hook it up, hit select loco and the number and off you went.
Today I picked up the Super Chief Xtra which includes the DT402D radio cab. After paging through the manual ans starting my first loco I see that the unit is not user friendly to new comers. Everything takes some thinking but it's learn able for sure. While the user interface seems a bit on the weak side there are some hardware capabilities that are definitely a plus. One that stands out is the loco net and the signaling capabilities. The ability of the throttle to control 2 loco's without switching back and forth looks like a good feature as well.
Consisting is a bit interesting. Digitrax says they have 3 modes while it's actually only 2 when compared to NCE. The default type is Universal which is what NCE calls the Old style. It is simply the command station sending commands to each of the loco's in the consist.
I haven't figured where advanced consist is in the menu's and think it doesn't exist. It may force you to enter everything manually. NCE defaults as advanced consist and changes the values in the loco's decoders with the push of a couple of buttons.
I figure it will take a few days to transition, then I'll be selling the NCE radio system.
Springfield PA
Did you skip the quick start, since you already know something about DCC? It walks you very clearly through hooking up the wires and which buttons to press to make a loco move. I've read the manuals for all the major systems and basic operation is darn near identical on all of them. The buttons are just labeled differently. On Digitrax you use the Loco button to..well, select a Loco.
There ARE 3 consist methods: Basic, which is just setting each loco to the same address, Universal, which is the command-station assisted default method for Digitrax, and Advanced which sets CV19. It's not going to be on the 'menu' anywhere to pick which one to use, there is only one MU key and the process is the same. To switch to Advanced to set CV19 (which IMO is rather limited when done per spec - NCE 'cheats' a little in that regard) you have to change a setting on the command station, it's in the back of the manual (don't mess with that stuff unless you really understand it - although you can always use OpSw 39 to reset the system to factory defaults if you mess up - or pull the battery that's inside). I do prefer the Universal method as it is more flexible, although on a huge layout you could run out of slots in the command station. It's probably past time that Digitrax come out with a higher end system that has a processor with larger capacity, although we didn;t have any issues with the RCT&HS modular layout and only a coupl of us really understand DCC, the rest run their trains based on a quick instruction and even with radio operation using the UT4R there aren't any problems.
You're not that far away from me, if you want to come by some time and do a little fiddling with Digitrax. I have a Zephyr and a Super Chief Xtra plus a PM42, a DT400 and a DT100. No running trains off the unfinished end of the layout though, unless you bring your own Oh I also have a PR3 interface and a DIY Hans DeLoof Locobuffer and LocoIO boards for computer interface and such.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
In my opinion, I think you made a mistake. Don't get me wrong, Digitrax is one of the top line systems, but I think NCE is better.
I am using Digitrax components for detection and signaling with my NCE Power Pro system. Check out this link if you are interested:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/C&A-Main-Page.html
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
gandydancer19In my opinion, I think you made a mistake.
Me too. If you were happy with the NCE system at home, you could have just bought the Digitrax UTwhatever for the club and saved a bunch of bucks. What was the logic you used to replace the whole system?
That being said, I'd be interested in the radio cab and the base station if you are willing to part with them separately and the price is right. Send me a PM if interested. I live in the Downingtown area.
Thanks Randy. I might take you up on that if I get in trouble. Maybe even if not
I've been playing with it on a test track and I'm starting to get the feel for what they're doing. Changing the controller settings isn't too bad. I started playing with that already
As far as being a mistake. I won't know that for a few days but so far there are definitely good things with it. One being the dual loco controller. I haven't tried programming any cv's with it yet but setting the address is easy. There aren't any basic setups for min max and mid speed etc.
Maxman, I haven't thought about how I'll be selling. I'll probably try to do the whole thing first and if no luck I'll sell the radio separate. I'll know in the next couple of days.
Get a Digitrax PR3 (computer interface) and then download JMRI Decoder Pro. I have had my Digitrax system for over 12 years, but gave up punching CVs on the throttle a long time ago.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
My club also uses Digitrax and I have NCE at home, so I just bought a UT for use at the club. Most of the members that have used the NCE at my house prefer it and wish we had it at the club.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Hamltnblue,
If you still like the PH Pro, why not keep that for your home layout and just use the DT402D at the club.? Essentially, you'd become "bilingual" at both and spend a lot less money doing so.
I have a Power Cab/SB3a set up at home. However, once a month I go over to a friend's layout and use one of his UT4 throttles to run my trains. It works fine but I still prefer my Power Cab.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
As a regular user of both Digitrax Super Chief and NCE Ph-Pro since 1999 and owner of a Digitrax Zephyr since 2002 and also owner of an NCE Power Cab since early 2008 I must say I like both systems equally and will not part with any.
When running trains I see no difference with any one system. Basic operations are the same almost keystroke to keystroke with both. Building consists is easy on both however I prefer NCE when it comes to breaking consists.
Programming is a different story, in this instance I prefer Digitrax faster more direct approach over the added overhead NCE's menu driven system impose.
If I would be in the OP shoes, I would keep the NCE home system and purchase a DT402 handheld to use at the club. I personally prefer the DT402 much more than the UT4 throttle.
Jack W.
I am sort of like you. My club uses Lenz, Me friend has a Digitrax and I have a Power Cab at home. Instead of switching systems I bought a Lenz LH90 to use at the club. I also lucked out a bought a CVP wireless throttle to use at the club also. My friend has enough throttles to cover all the operators.
My Power cab is perfect for me at home since my layout is still in the planning and acquisition of building material phase. The thing I like the most in the Power Cab is the read and write any decoder I have put on the rails. Another is the built in amp meter for troubleshooting problems.
The clubs Lenz system is also a fantastic system but pricey for someone starting out and a little bit complicated. Not having a wireless system could turn some users off. CVP has a wireless throttle system for Lenz. They do have a thing to convert a cordless phone into a throttle.
My friends Digitrax system has worked good for him but he did have to modify his throttles with a mini toggle to shut them off. He sets up the operating sessions so I have no experience with programing or consisting with it.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Thanks All
I have both systems in hand at the moment. I actually have 3 including a power cab which I've been using as a throttle for the PhPro. After a day I'm getting more comfortable with the Super Chief. Right now I'm leaning on pawning off the PHPro-R and keeping the Procab for programming etc. I'll probably look into a computer interface for the Digitrax as suggested. The PhPro has one built in which I only tried a couple of times.
I've used both a lot and like them both. I like the DT400 throttle better. My personal preference.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
The DT throttle's is what sold me on Digitrax. Makes running two trains on the same line so easy.
You got to try the PR 3, only time I use my SEB to change CV's is when I am speed matching.
Ken
I hate Rust
Will the PR3 allow you to read CV's on sound loco's or is a program booster needed with the Digitrax?
There is no need for a booster with a PR3.
HamltnblueWill the PR3 allow you to read CV's on sound loco's or is a program booster needed with the Digitrax?
I had only one it would not read, it was a CSX Blue Line GE AC 6000. Odd thing is it would read the Blue Line UP GE AC 6000?
On the sound page, you get a read out of all the individual sounds, like Chuff, Bell, Pop off etc and you can change them individually. No looking up the CV's, very handy.
Sounds tempting for sure. I'll have to step up the timeline for getting my wife a new laptop so I can have her current one.
You would need a booster if using the PR3 in MS100 mode. Used that way, it is just an interface between the command station and the computer so readback would be dependant on the limits of the command station.
Using a PR3 as a stand alone programmer, there would be no need for a booster. It has plenty of power when used as a stand alone.
Martin Myers
So the PR3 can be used without a system?
Hamltnblue So the PR3 can be used without a system?
Yes, it can.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Yes, the PR3 has a standalone mode, It needs a power supply, and a USB cable to connect to your computer. And a couple of wires to apiece of track. I was goign to upload the pictures of my test/programmign track I took but none of them came out very well so I need to take more. I used a piece of that Rubbermaid laminated shelf wood, 3 Atlas rerailers, plus a 9" section of Atlas track cut in half. The track is all soldered together with the rerailers in the middle. I used CA to attach a pair of Kadee coupler guages to the ends (after cutting one rail at each end to insualte them - I used the old metal Kadee gauges). A pair of wires are sodlered to the rails, and I mounted my PR3 with double-sided tape to the board. I can use this for programming locos or testing cars - I still need to mark off NMRA weights at increments along the track so you cna just run a car to the end and read off how much it should weigh. And maybe get a second NMRA gauge and attach it with some steel wire to the board so it doesn't grow legs.
The PR3 in standalone mode can program just about anything, plus program sounds into Digitrax sound decoders. I've actually not had any problems programming what few sound units I've worked on with just my Zephyr, and I didn't use the 'blast mode' or anything. That's pretty much limited to my Loksound equipped T-1, a Digitrax SoundBug, and one of the new QSI aftermarket decoders I installed in a Genesis diesel for someone. I really don't like these program track boosters as they defeat the purpose of a low-power program track ( so you can test your install before subjecting it to full track power, so if it's mis-wired it won't fry the decoder). Like the short-recovery inrush current problem, the programmability issues are a DESIGN DEFECT IN THE DECODER and not the shortcomings of the DCC system. They can trot out "applicable NMRA standards" all they want but the fact remains you CAN (and some have) build a decoder with a large keep-alive capacitor that does NOT cause a huge current inrush when power is applied and secondarily does not cause too great a load on the program track.
Thanks for the info. I'll be ordering one shortly
I agree that a booster shouldn't be used on a program track for new installs but for manysound loco's I don't see another way to read current CV settings.
While switching the Digitrax over to the layout I decided to open up both the NCE and Digitrax to see how their architecture compared.
Both systems utilize 8 bit processors and are up to date with surface mount devices.
The Digitrax uses a Pic processor (PIC 16F74) and has an LH5164AN-80L off board ram. No external Rom was seen.
The PHPro uses a Z80 family chip (Z84C008VSG) and has 256k of ram( CY62256NLL) and a 256k eprom chip. The extra rom/ram is probably for the menu structure. There is also a Z84c9008VSG I/O controller on-board (For the RS-232 interface)
This is probably why digitrax uses cryptic menu's. It has to. I'm sure it's also why they have to have products like the PR3 for computer interface.
However using an external deivce to connect to Loconet gives some HUGE advantages to the Digitrax side. A computer program like JMRI can 'see' whatever anyoen does with any throttle on the Digitrax system - you can't do that with NCE. Say you have a dispatcher panel with turnout controla nd someone issues a command from their handheld to throw the switch. With NCE, the only way you can possibly 'see' this is if you hook up a contact on the switch machine to a feedback device. With Loconet - as soon as you hit the key on the throttle, the panel will change to reflect the change, no feedback devices needed. Everythign that happens on the network can be seen and acted upon - Loconet is peer to peer not polled so the Locobuffer or PR3 can see the traffic between any devices on the network, such as an occupancy detector sending a command to a signal controller. Or intercept and act upon the commands.
This was how I plan to provide for both dispather and solo operation with a loco control option for dispatcher controlelr turnouts. The local panels will input via LocoIO boards, which generate loconet messages in response to an input trigger, or can turn outpus on and off based on loconet messages. Pushing a button will send a command to say throw turnout 10 to reverse. If in dispatcher mode, the panel code in JMRI will 'see' the command to switch turnout 10, but will only act on it if the dispatcher has enabled locao control by using the built-in logic (no programming required) which basically would state IF turnout10 Reverse and Turnout10 Local Control On, then turnout 1000 Reverse where the DCC decoder connected to the turnout would have an address of 1000. Manual mode for operating solo or without a dispatcher would simply link the button that generates the turnout 10 reverse message to turnout 1000 without the extra check for the local power. And by using stationary decoder addresses above 1000 , or enabling the 'Bushby Bit" on the command station, no operator can 'cheat' and change the turnout position.
Thre more, a LOT more. You can also have multiple interfaces connected to Loconet - some larger layouts do this where they break up the dispatcher job into two, say one for each division represented on the railroad. Two or more computers connected to the Loconet, each controlling its part of the railroad.
When I first got my PR 3, it would not read any sound decoders. Luckily Simon 1966 came over again! He ran my PR 3 at his house and had no issues. Seems not all USB ports have the same power output? He switched the USB port and did some changes in the Comfig and I was fine. My computer is pretty old, from around 2004 so a newer one may not have the problem I did.
Ones you have one, you will never look back. All so the reason I did not go with the Super Chief!
Good Points. Maybe the intention is for the base unit to act as a traffic cop more than a central processor, with the smarts in the controllers and items like the PR3
HamltnblueGood Points. Maybe the intention is for the base unit to act as a traffic cop more than a central processor, with the smarts in the controllers and items like the PR3
Since the LocoNet is an actual peer to peer network, as Randy mentioned, the command station isn't really a traffic cop so much as it is another one of the "smart" components.
You can actually set up a stand-alone LocoNet without a command station. I do that all the time with my PR3, for example when I'm programming a DS64, or when it's first installed on the layout and I don't want to power up the whole layout to test it.
A good example of the peer to peer approach is, the code in the command station PIC doesn't even handle functions above F8. The throttles handle the higher functions by telling the command station to send the NMRA DCC packet corresponding to the appropriate function. This is also why that evn before the DT402 came out, you could access F0-F29 on a Digitrax system using the computer throttles in JMRI. There has only been one real update to the firmware in the DCS100, and that was because the earliest versions, back when 8 functions was a lot, didn't handle anything higher than that. There was an update many moons ago that 'fixed' it so it could handle the then-new 12 function throttles. No additional update was required to add the new 29 function throttles, just plug in and go.
The menus themselves are also not generated int he command station, the throttle firmware handles all that They did finally get smart with the DT402 in that the firmware is now user-updateable, in case they need to change something, but there hadn't been any updates for the DT400. As for the extra ROM and RAM in the PH-Pro, I don;t think that particular Z80-based controller has much on-board, so external was needed. I beleive the external RAM chip on the DCS100 is to store the settings, backed up with the coin battery, although it MIGHT store loco and consist info since you can reset all that stuff by pullign the battery for a few minutes. Actually, it probably does because the 16F74 only has 192 words of internal RAM. 4K of program space. A simple switch to a 16F77 would give 8K of program space. Probably the reason they haven't yet made a command station that can handle more than 120 locos is the speed of interfacing the external RAM. If the code has to go throut that RAM to keep loco info refreshed and the access is serial insteadof parallal, it can take an awfully long time to process a loop. I guess the alternative would be a PIC with much more on-board RAM, or some alternative interface. Also, I guess it was a cost decision to skip the interfaqce - the 16F74 has a UART so a serial port could be added fairly trivially - probably no code space though, plus then you'd be stuck with an RS-232 interface which is pretty rare on computers these days. The 16F873 used in the Hans DeLoof Locobuffer itself has 4K of program space, although the code isn't nearly that big.
It seems they have it figured out and have been able to add new product without too much problem. I did the switch over to the Digitrax today and ran for a couple of hours testing fresh laid track on the section I'm re-building. The 402 controller is growing on me. It's nice to be able to run 2 loco's at a time without any switching. I was actually running a consist of SD70's and a switcher.
Is there a way to run 2 consists on the 402 throttle?
Sure. Once you build the consist the system treats it like a single loco. Any throttle can then run the consist. Just select the prebuilt consist and run it.