Signals

[Motley]

Thanks again Mark and Elmer for the great detailed information.

Michael

[gandydancer19]

Motley

Thanks for the good read on signaling Elmer.

I was not planning on having turnout detection, what I planned to use was the NCE mini-panel for routing. Once I select a route, I will know what the turnout positions will be.

Do you think I really need the turnout detection to properly operate my layout?

And if you think I need this, how do I setup turnout detection? I'm using Peco switches with Peco switch machines that are all controlled by DS64s using an NCE throttle NCE PHP system.(no manual turnouts)

Thanks,

Michael

 

There is prototype signaling, and then there is everything else. Most of the time the modeler has to pick and choose what they want to do as far as signaling is concerned.  Even Bruce Chub compromised some on his signal system.

On the prototype, the signals aspects are set according to the track conditions (occupied or not) and route changes (turnout direction), and by the dispatcher.  How prototypical you want to be is strictly up to you. 

My layout is not necessarily signaled as the prototype would be, but what signals are there show the correct aspects for most of the conditions encountered.  Of course this takes a computer, but that is just the way I did mine.

OK, lets say that a train is coming to a turnout that goes up a branch, or continues on the mainline route.  There should be a signal at or near the points that would indicate to the engineer: 1- which route was selected by indicating the track speed that the train should be at when going through said turnout, and 2- if the track ahead (block) on the route selected is clear or not.  This info would be displayed on a signal with two heads.  To get this level of detail either takes a computer or a microprocessor.  NCE is not up to the task with their equipment yet, so I decided to use Digitrax devices.  There are other systems as well.  RR-CirKits is another type system that is fairly complete.

I also have an NCE Power Pro DCC system and am using one DS64, two BDL-168's and three SE8C's.  I had to set up a stand alone Digitrax LocoNet, which was not really all that hard to do once I understood it. You can check out some of it at on my simple web page with links:

 http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/C&A-Main-Page.html

To really see what can be done, you need to know what the real railroads do.  The following link should give you almost everything you need to know, and it is done well and is fairly simple to understand.

http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_st_sp/index.html

What you have to do is research how the signals on real RR's work, and then decide how much of that you actually want to use.  There are also different time frames to consider.  What is done today is not necessarily what was done 40 years ago.

Hope this helps.

[Mark R.]

General rule of thumb (although there are exceptions) is that the signal is always mounted to the right of the track - so the engineer can see it - and always before whatever it is the signal is guarding - whether it's a passing track, siding, cross-over or diamond.

If the signal is governing a main / diverging route, it would be mounted before you actually get to the turnout, not after as I'm seeing in your bottom left red marker.

Signals govern not only turnout position, but also if the position it IS thrown for is occupied by another train or not. It can get complicated very quickly for even a simple section. For example - a simple straight mainline with a passing track (single to dual back to single) would require six signal indications and four occupancy detectors ! Then there's the interlocking between the mechanical position of the turnout and the physical position of the train (yours or another).

I'd pick one spot first and decide exactly what you want that signal to indicate and piece it all together accordingly. Block occupancy will require a pair of separate detectors for each track on either side of the governing signal. If you also want to throw in turnout position, extra contacts on the turnout will also be required,

Mark. 

 

[Motley]

Thanks for the good read on signaling Elmer.

I was not planning on having turnout detection, what I planned to use was the NCE mini-panel for routing. Once I select a route, I will know what the turnout positions will be.

Do you think I really need the turnout detection to properly operate my layout?

And if you think I need this, how do I setup turnout detection? I'm using Peco switches with Peco switch machines that are all controlled by DS64s using an NCE throttle NCE PHP system.(no manual turnouts)

Thanks,

Michael

[gandydancer19]

 What you need to do is develop a signal plan.  Try this link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/Signals/Signals_getting_started1.html

[richhotrain]

Motley

Thanks for all the help Mark.

I'm not really shooting for prototypical operation with the signals, more looks than functionality. I'm certainly not going to install 50 signals, LOL, I was thinking maybe 4-6 signals. Most of my operating happens along the front edges of the layout. The big access hole in the upper-left is big enough to operate, but will seldom be used.

So from my point of view, and visitors point of view, I'm only concerned with signals along the front edges of the layout that you will be able to see.

So in that case, from your information, this is where I believe I should place signals.

(Signals marked with red blobs)

Please let me know if I'm on the right track. (pun is intended)

Michael

Michael,

I can only tell you what I did in my situation, with objectives similar to your own. 

I marked the absolutely essential signals (turnouts, crossovers, etc.) one color on my track diagram, a second color for signals that I would also like but not critical (sidings, yard ladders, etc.) and then, finally, a third set of colors for whatever remains that could be signaled (dwarfs, etc.).  Then, I added it up, calculated the costm and went from there to signal only the critical areas first.  In some cases, I wound up with unpowered signal bridges to save dollars.

Rich

[Motley]

Thanks for all the help Mark.

I'm not really shooting for prototypical operation with the signals, more looks than functionality. I'm certainly not going to install 50 signals, LOL, I was thinking maybe 4-6 signals. Most of my operating happens along the front edges of the layout. The big access hole in the upper-left is big enough to operate, but will seldom be used.

So from my point of view, and visitors point of view, I'm only concerned with signals along the front edges of the layout that you will be able to see.

So in that case, from your information, this is where I believe I should place signals.

(Signals marked with red blobs)

Please let me know if I'm on the right track. (pun is intended)

Michael

[Mark R.]

That's not really a simple question !

Ok - For starters, it appears as though your entire right hand room has no continuous main and is all yard / industrial trackage, so no signals are "needed" in there.

The left hand room would require a LOT of signals to be prototypical ! Simply put - anywhere there's a deviation to a straight run main, there should be a signal indication. This would include any diverging routes, sidings, cross-overs or diamonds. You would easily require fifty or more signals on that maze of trackwork to signal it properly !

I guess what it comes down to when starting to install a signalling system, is, what do you it to do ? Protect incorrectly thrown turnouts ? Protect trains against opposing movements of other trains ? Probably best to start with what spot on your layout needs the most protection. Where do the most "oop's" occur ? That is what should be signalled first - so you now have a visual on the situation to prevent that "oops" !

Wiring signals into your layour layout can become very complex in rather short order - even more so when the plan is compact with a lot of trackage. My layout's main line is essentially point to point with two interchanges and three passing tracks. Even with a mainline as simple as that, it took numerous signals and miles of wiring to get it all to function prototypically. The key is to just take small bites as the big picture will easily overwelm you !

Mark. 

[Motley]

I was looking into getting some signals. I found the logicrail products with the signal animator IR circuits for basic signal functions. I'm not looking for absolute prototype operation of the signals.

I understand I can use two signals for each SA-1-IR.

My question is, where do I place these signals and IR detectors on my new layout?

Here is my layout: