Are there any old style block wiring users here, or is everyone using Radio control?
The reason I ask is, I don't have any Radio Control locomotives, and I don't know if I want to spend the money and time (mainly money), to upgrade all my locos.
It would be nice to have RC, but I just don't have the money to do it, and the veteran masterfull old timers seemed to be pretty happy all those years without it, flipping all their block switches like mad.
Model RR is GoodAre there any old style block wiring users here, or is everyone using Radio control?
Most people not using conventional block control are using "DCC". Some DCC systems have radio throttles.
I installed a simple DC block system for my son's layout. My layout is NCE DCC.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Even though I now use DCC on my layout it was originally (and still is) wired in blocks for use on DC. I just turn on the blocks I want to use for DCC and I'm in business. I can flip the switches for the remaining blocks the other way and use them on DC to move a switcher to spot cars.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Yeah, I'm an "old timer", by your description. But only the guys with wireless DCC controllers use "Radio Control". DCC (Digital Command Control) is not "radio control". My primary reason for not switching over has nothing to do, however, with my age or how long (except very indirectly) I've been in the hobby (55+ years), or how "happy" I am with flipping block switches. It's strictly economics and time.
With nearly 50 locomotives, the cost of conversion, even if I was competent to do so - a question yet to be determined - would be prohibitive. Not only would the price of the decoders exceed in many cases, what I paid for the loco, but there's the additional cost of the base unit and any boosters. Not to mention that I am not interested in pursuing a task both exceedingly lengthy and highly repetitive for the several years it would take to convert. I have way too much invested. And most of my locomotives are very old-school, with 1950s technology. Hard to modify, especially if you want to add sound.
All of that said, however, if I was just starting out, I would definitely use DCC. With DCC you run the train, not the layout. Very cool.
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
===================================
"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
I switched to DCC primarily for the radio control. The basic set up was a bit costly, but I only have a dozen locomotives so the cost of decoders is manageable. Currently, I have sound in 4 units and dcc in 3 others that don't have room for sound. I have one electric that will have dcc no sound and 4 steam locomotive kits that will have dcc/sound added as they are built The sound in S scale is nice.
Enjoy
Paul
Nope: gave up block control in the 80's when the first command control systems hit the market. I installed Dynatrol, had limited number of channels (plug addresses) but still liked it fine. In 1999 began switch to DCC and I have NEVER REGRETTED IT. For those who are still using block control and are switch flippers, I wish you nothing but the bests, but it is not for me. NCE has spoiled me beyond any hope of redemption. In fact, with a three deck 33ft by 29ft layout, there are no control panels, only switch throws on the facia at the proper locations. Life is good.
Bob
I enjoy flipping block switches and wiring them up when building the layout. One advantage not often mentioned is that, when one of my blocks is OFF, it is unpowered and I don't worry about creating a short with a tool or something while working on it.
I get a certain satisfaction in simultaneously switching the throttle reverser and the track direction switch at the same time so my train is goes around the reversing loop without a glitch.
I will freely admit that having only two throttles on any one block makes it relatively easy. If I had a bigger layout and wanted more throttles, it would become more complicated and I might change my mind.
Yup, old school here, too. I may, at some time make the switch to DCC. When I started the layout, DCC was relatively new, and I've never been one to jump on version 1 point anything. Being on a fixed income, now, will take some time to save up for the initial outlay.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Our large local club layout is all block control with 5 main line control "cabs", 2 major yards and several smaller towns that have local block control. Layout is CTC dispatched and only the turnouts inside the yard or at local towns have localized control, rest are controled by the dispatcher. On my own personal layout that is under construction, it will also be DC analog block control, with my older brass imports and small room size (111" by 115"), installing DCC really isnt in my plans at this time. Most of my engines still run open frame motors that make that wonderfull "ozone" smell when I fire them up after sitting dormant for the summer months. DCC is fun, I enjoy operating it on friends layouts and I do own a couple of newer engines to take to thier layouts to operate, but its not for me. I just love an old school layout. Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
another old fossil here. i use rotary switches to assign blocks to the different cabs and toggles to kill power to sections where engines are left spotted. entire layout is wired with telephone cable using multiple strands. as many as needed to avoid voltage drop. walk around control is via Aristocraft t/e fm remotes with one power source provided by an old conventional power pack. i use it exclusively for when i run my dual mode sound equipped engines. the delay in the T/M reversing circuits doesn't play well with sound.
i have no quarrel with anyone who likes the modern electronics and if i had need to run a bunch of different trains at one time, i would probably consider it myself. i doubt if that is ever going to be the case since my operating sessions are usually just me and occasionally one more person. my caustic personality most likely keeps me from having to accomodate a bunch of operators at one time.
grizlump
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
Well,
I guess I'm different. I use wireless radio DC throttles - Aristo Craft Train Engineer - to be exact.
So no decoders/receivers in locos.
To direct power to the trains, I don't use toggles or rotary switches, but rather pushbuttons and relays.
Using a modified version of Ed Ravenscroft's MZL control. This provides for walk around and central dispatch panel operations, detection, signaling, collision avoidance and allows for very simple user interface.
Many "blocks" (we prefer the term "electrical section") are automaticly assigned to the correct throttle (or turned off compleltey) by turnout positions, and the number of "cab assignments" that need to be made is minimal. In CTC central panel mode, the dispatcher assigns the routes and cabs leaving the engineer to only run his train.
In walk around mode, pushbutton stations are proviided around the layout where ever needed to allow proper assignment and local tower panels are used to set turnout routes which automaticly assign track power as well.
My turnout controls are intergrated into the system providing one button selection of complex routes through yards and interlockings and making it impossible to throw a "switch" under a train.
My system is niether simple or inexpensive, but if you want signaling and CTC, it costs way less than getting similar features with DCC, especially if you have a large roster/layout.
It is not friendly to onboard sound, but I don't want/like onboard sound in HO.
The Train Engineer throttles provide great slow speed and constant lighting and are very easy to use.
For the layout goals I have, I would not use anything else.
There are three or four other well known regulars on here using DC who have not commented in this thread yet, I personally know quite a few still using DC and I suspect at least half the modelers out there are still using DC.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Train Engineer throttles provide great slow speed...
Sheldon,
You've mentioned this a few times before in other threads. Can you quantify what "great slow speed" is in sMPH with your DC layout? Is it the same for every one of your locomotives? Or, is each locomotive different - i.e. one has better slow speed than another?
I ask this sincerely and out of curiosity. Thanks.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Train Engineer throttles provide great slow speed... Sheldon, You've mentioned this a few times before in other threads. Can you quantify what "great slow speed" is in sMPH with your DC layout? Is it the same for every one of your locomotives? Or, is each locomotive different - i.e. one has better slow speed than another? I ask this sincerely and out of curiosity. Thanks. Tom
Tom,
It does vary with locomotive gearing/motor/quality, etc. And, not every loco starts at the same throttle setting.
But start up speeds in the 1-3 smph range are typical just like DCC. Smooth slow speed operation in 1-5 smph range is possible with all but the poorest quality locos. Regardless of speed, starts and stops are always smooth and controlled when using the normal speed buttons.
The output of the Train Engineer is a full voltage square wave pulse width modulated signal very similar to DCC decoder outputs, minus features like BEMF.
Just like DCC decoders, this type of signal provides smooth operation. The TE has programable momentum at several preset rates. I personally do not use the momentum, but even with the momentum "off" there is a slight delay or "ramping up/ramping down" to all throttle commands, as the TE uses buttons for fast/slow, not a knob.
Another feature of the TE is that if you reverse the direction while there is voltage on the track, the throttle ramps down to zero, changes direction, then ramps up to the previous setting. This is great for switching at slow speeds.
Five buttons are used to control the loco - "faster", "slower", "east", "west", and "emergency stop". during normal operation these are the only buttons the operator needs to use and they are large, raised and easy to identify by feel.
A few more details,
Because it is a full voltage pulse, lighting, either lamps or LED's see it as full voltage, so when the throttle is first powered up, usually well before the loco moves, the lights light at full or nearly full brightness.
And locos can be brought to a stop, leaving the lights on.
Is it as "perfect" as someone who has used "decoder pro" to tune every loco - no. But then again a great number of those using DCC have never changed a CV.
And, it does not like dual mode decoders, most locos with them perform very poorly on the TE, but then perform wonderfully after the decoders are removed.
I am still DC for a few reasons:
I can foresee the day in the not too distant future when I will change to DCC, at least partially. One driver of the change to DCC could be a decision to construct modules to combine with others in a modular group - all the modular standards I am interested in use DCC. Another change driver might be hearing a similarly small locomotive with really good sound. Or if I gain a steady operational group for my home layout, I could see the advantages of moving to DCC. Until then, I will continue to monitor and prioritize my hobby funds based on most gain in enjoyment for me for the $$.
I do not see radio control - DC or DCC - as worthwhile for my small home layout. Again, modular layout experience may change my mind.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Thanks for the explanation, Sheldon. Slow speed operation in the 1-3 sMPH range is indeed respectable.
I still have block wiring on both of my layouts beside the fact that I have DCC on them. I like the freedom to go between DC and DCC when I choose. I don't have as many DCC locos as I do DC and my DC locos are still in pretty good shape.
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
Like Sheldon, I use a modified form of Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system, with analog DC and silent locomotives.
Unlike Sheldon, I use rotary switches to assign power to the directly-controlled sections, and hard-wired controllers (some plug in/walkaround, some fixed.)
To make a complete roundy-round loop of approximately 5 scale km of first main track, I have to assign power to one directly-controlled section and set four more for pass-through power. Sixteen sections, fed through contacts on whatever moves the points on the turnouts, automatically take power from the appropriate directly-controlled sections, one in each zone.
When there are several operators present, the CTC operator has the responsibility of keeping the correct train controller connected to the correct train. An individual train engineer need only run his own train, and throw manual switches when switching or working industries.
When operating solo, the CTC panel is used when the railroad is being operated in mostly railfan mode (no switching outside of Tomikawa yard limits.) If the resident lone wolf decides to walk along with a single train, the CTC panel is taken off-line and all track power assignments are handled at the zone panel level. At that point, strict timetable operation regresses to sequence operation mode.
In any operation mode, it is possible to set up a train for 'fire and forget' operation - it just runs until it reaches the point where it has to stop, then does so. Stopping lacks a certain elegance (more like a first-time student driver than a railroad) but most auto-stops are made in the netherworld. Stops on visible trackage are made under control of an engineer, not an auto-stop circuit. (Those auto-stop sections actually add about ten additional sub-sections to my earlier 21 section per lap count, so make that 31.)
DCC might make controlling a train easier for an operator. It also opens the door to such wonders as head-on collisions, which are all but physically impossible with MZL.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The last time I heard an ammount of DC users as a percentage, about a year ago, the percentage of DC users was about 70%, of which I'm one of them. If you listen to the manufacturers and the RR magazines (including this one) you get the impression that DC is a thing of the past. In fact, it is alive and well!
DCC has many advantages, especially if you are just starting out, if you have several operators (such as a club), you have few locomotives, lots of time & money, etc. Disadvantages, electrical problems that require two and sometimes three page articles in the major magazines for the past 10+ years to correct. Incompatibility between manufacturers, sound systems that just ain't quite like the real thing (getting better, but not there yet), and please don't get me started on the current wave of locomotives that are suposto be able to run on both DC & DCC. In an effort to try to market a locomotive, manufacturers compromise their integrity with these want-to-be's.
Their are very few things that I can't do in DC, that can be done with DCC. As for myself, I would rather take the money that it would take to convert the layout and the locomotives and put it in scenery. I have a 1,400sf.layout, with 86 locomotives ranging in age from 1962 to 2010, and manufacturers from Mantua & Rivarossi to brass. Since their are only two operators at this time, the operational advantages of DCC don't exist yet. DC is very consistant and reliable. DCC will get there in time, but not yet.
At this time, I'm very satisfied with DC operation. BTW, the 2010 locomotive is a Broadway Ltd. E-7, that was a gift. The electronics were stripped out of it and a Holland can motor installed. It runs like a Swiss watch as a DC locomotive. It still has to be correctly painted, and that will come in time.
I questioned whether to go DCC or DC when I started my latest home layout 3 years ago. I had over 30 engines that would have to have decoders places in them. The first thing I discovered was that it would cost about $120 to have decoders installed in them. Secondly I discovered that some of my engines could not have decoders placed in them. But one of my goals was to computerize my operations sesions. The computer was to assist the operators (me, myself and I) during an operating sessions. After doing a web search I found two sources that would allow me to operate my layout in a DC mode with block controls. One source was Oak Tree Systems, oaktreesystems.com, which make control that will allow you to interface with a computer. You may want to go to their website to get a good understanding of how their systems work. The system allows you to have a block wired system but the computer is used to make the switching so you do not have to have a large panel of toggle switches. The second source is RailRoad & Co., freiwald.com. Railroad & Co. sells software packages that allows you to control your layout with the computer. The RairRoad & Co. is compatible with the Oak Tree Systems hardware. Oak Tree is developing their own software to be used exclusively with their hardware which they hope to be releasing very soon. Oak Tree currently has a free download of their Signal Edition that will allow you to get a feel of how their hardware and software will work. Both websites have considerable information about how their respective hardware or software work. My layout is being constructed as a DC block wire system for computer controll. While my system may not have all the fine points of a DCC system, I expect to be able to operate trains in much the same manner as a DCC system at a fraction of the cost. I hope you find this information helpful.
As with a number of others who have responded,my layout predates DCC. Dection and signaling required 35 isolated blocks controled by rotary switches between walk around and fixed cabs.When DCC came along ,I simply added it as another cab on my rotary switches.I don't know if any other detection system will operate without isolated blocks-transponding?. If not,you will end up with blocks so a dual DC/DCC system is practical. The added advantage of DC is I run in all new locos on a continuous loop route and monitor them with built in volt/ amp meters before installing decoders.For anyone starting out in DCC,I suggest isolated blocks that will make it easier down the road to add dection/signaling if you so wish.
I have a good size O scale layout and I like hand throwing the switches and turning on and off the DC blocks. I like this for my operation!
Cass shaysBTW, the 2010 locomotive is a Broadway Ltd. E-7, that was a gift. The electronics were stripped out of it and a Holland can motor installed. It runs like a Swiss watch as a DC locomotive.
Cass,
Just a brief rabbit trail. Do you know right off hand if the Holland can motor could be used in any BLI locomotive - i.e. diesel or steam? Thanks.
Not exactly a "holdout" just not impressed by DCC, especially the cost of conversion. I built my most recent layout from the ground up, starting in the fall 2006. I have a lot of vintage HO equipment that would need some level of conversion to install a decoder. Add to that, I have 54 active locomotives, and great performance from a homebuilt throttle, based on a MR article, it's just not worth it.
Factor in that I had rolls of wire and bags of toggle switches, the electrical system was essentially paid for before I started.
I am DC in the hobby for 40 +years.It always worked fine easy for me to wire. I use rotarys and toggles as needed . I have too many locos with open frame motors to convert .I am a big Hobbytown fan and have many of them. Some of the old Alco Models brass diesels do not run too well. Most of the Alco Models diesels have since been issued in plastic which run better and look better.I do not want the expense of high current decoders for the Hobbytowns.I don`t have the time or the money to change now.If I were new to the hobby DCC would be the way to go I have tried it on other layouts.. It is very neat to see what it can do.
Hi,
I too am a holdout for the old style DC system. My layout is four levels which is controlled by 4 power packs, Three of which are on some kind of tether. There are a total of 14 blocks with 18 locations where you can shut the power off a section of the block. Each block can also be powered by two different throttles.
Why all this wiring? Being an electrician it is something I like to do, also being a lone wolf operator there is no need for more then two trains going at the same time. Having two trains under my control at the same time is hectic enough for me. Also have no desire to replicate a "corn field meet".
Frank
PS: Sound is great but I prefer not to have that feature so no need for DCC
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."