Hello, last year I purchased a P2 J1e Hudson, the chuff sound worked for a while and suddenly dissapeared, I e-mailed BLI and asked them to send me a chuff sensor since this was a known problem on these models, whitin 2 weeks I received 2 new chuff sensors and took my loco to the LHS and got it replaced, since then, my J1e hudson is chuffing away on my layout.
Serge
HamltnblueDo they by any chance offer the PCB so that people don't have to unsolder the relay?
I have no idea. You would have to ask the repair guys. Actually the solder job isn't that bad as both sides of the relay are readily exposed once you get the PCB out. Their are no other components any where near it so quick in quick out and you are done.
Thanks for posting.
Do they by any chance offer the PCB so that people don't have to unsolder the relay?
Springfield PA
HamltnblueIf you have the capability, scan and post the instructions to the sensor. It would be a good reference to have.
I can't scan but I sure can type. The instructions are VERY basic and leave out several important steps (I think ) so I will add them to the list.
This instruction sheet is from BLI repair folks specifically for replacing the chuff sensor in the Blueline N&W Class A. As I stated earlier it is just a very tiny NO reed switch.
To remove Boiler cover, Remove the small square cap located in front of the smoke stack (part #29), revealing a screw.
Remove screw (funny)
Remove two screws under cab.
Not in instructions but remove hand rails at cab doors right and left.
Gently, lift the boiler from the chassis, making sure you do not damage any detail parts.
Located behind the motor you will see a thin printed ckt board (PCB) about 2 1/2 inches long.
Remove the plugs from the PCB. The plug on the end with wires going to the sensor is of course the plug I found that was not pushed in all the way. That brought back my chuffs.
Remove screw under rear plug.
Gently remove the PCB.
On the bottom of the PCB you will see a small reed relay (small glass tube).
Unsolder the relay.
Position the new relay as close to the edge of the PCB as possible while still making contact with the leads.
Solder new relay in place.
Replace PCB and plugs.
Test the new chuff sensor.
Replace boiler.
I would like to thank the repair folks at BLI for their speedy assistance and providing these instructions to solve my problem.
scubaterry Well took awhile to get back on line but I did rx the chuff sensor (itty bitty reed switch) from BLI. Took loco apart according to provided instructions. Before unsoldering old sensor I cked it with Ohm Meter and it appeared to be working fine. I did notice when I unplugged the three plugs from the sensor board the sensor chuff plug was not seated all the way. So on a whim I decided to re-assemble and give it a try before tackling the itty bitty soldering job. I ensured all plugs were firmly seated and put her on the track and I am happy to say it worked fine. So it was a loose plug not the sensor. So I guess I have a back up sensor. It sucks that I had to go thru that with a new loco. And of my 8 BLI/PCM loco's I have had to repair four on arrival so far. I will say however that BLI support dept is outstanding as far as helping out and providing parts/help etc. And with all that said I am still very happy with the looks and operation of my BLI/PCM loco's.
Well took awhile to get back on line but I did rx the chuff sensor (itty bitty reed switch) from BLI. Took loco apart according to provided instructions. Before unsoldering old sensor I cked it with Ohm Meter and it appeared to be working fine. I did notice when I unplugged the three plugs from the sensor board the sensor chuff plug was not seated all the way. So on a whim I decided to re-assemble and give it a try before tackling the itty bitty soldering job. I ensured all plugs were firmly seated and put her on the track and I am happy to say it worked fine. So it was a loose plug not the sensor. So I guess I have a back up sensor. It sucks that I had to go thru that with a new loco. And of my 8 BLI/PCM loco's I have had to repair four on arrival so far. I will say however that BLI support dept is outstanding as far as helping out and providing parts/help etc. And with all that said I am still very happy with the looks and operation of my BLI/PCM loco's.
Glad to see you found the problem.
If you have the capability, scan and post the instructions to the sensor. It would be a good reference to have.
Hamltnblue I'll have to check my Y6B. I've never noticed it, but then again it only has a couple of hours on it so far.
I'll have to check my Y6B. I've never noticed it, but then again it only has a couple of hours on it so far.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
I have a repair buddy with whom BLI have no problem letting him take a look at my problem engines, and if he opens them, they have no heartache over warranty. In fact, BLI encourages user repairs and diagnosis if you are skilled and experienced. They will caution you, though, over the Hybrids because those have to be shipped back to the factory for all but the most rudimentary and basic rectifications. BLI has strict specs about packing and shipping their Hybrids back to them because they obviously don't want additional repairs to broken or dislodged details.
If you go on the BLI site forum, the fellows talk all the time about chuff sensors and the clip atop the gear towers that seems to pop off and let the drive slip. They are easily fixed...or so it seems.
-Crandell
Secondly, yes, I emailed Broadway Limited yesterday and they offered to send chuff sensors with instructions and that they "encourage" us to service our own engines lst and if only reasonable damage was done, the warrantee is still in place. (Don't know what reasonable would be, no soldering iron bon-fires?)
Very fast, very helpful. Great customer service. He ALSO said that JMRI would not show problems with the sensors. I thought I'd see if the decoder CVs give me read back at least, before opening them up.
Well I just rx my Blueline NW Class A yesterday and guess what? Same problem you are having. Everything works fine except no chuff. I did the reset, cked the tender/loco plug, adj cv155 all to no avail. I emailed Broadway Limited and to their credit they emailed back yesterday afternoon. They say it sounds like chuff sensor is bad. I requested they send me the instructions and a new sensor and I would do the repair to save time and money. They said ok and my warrenty would still be good. Good deal I say. Of course buying a new steamer at these kinds of prices you would expect them to work out of the box. Out sourcing, you get what you pay for!
I am not sure what triggers the chuff on the Paragon 2 loco, but the Blueline is triggered from the reed sensor over the flywheel. This may not be a CV problem and you will spend time for not. Make absolutely sure the plugs are seated firmly. Check for a bent or missing pin in the connector. Some BLI tender tethers have had bits of plastic flash in the holes where the pins go. A small drill bit will clean them out, but make sure you don't remove metal. Chuff sensors have been known to fail. My Blueline M1b lost its chuff and it turned out to be it was just loose and a simple click back in the bracket fixed it. Your Paragon 2 loco may be the same as the Blueline.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Do you guys know if I'll void a warrantee with BLI/Paragon if we open 'em up to check for physical problems like loose wires, etc.? 1. NO CV found to ONLY silence chuff. CV 155 is having no effect.
2. Resets give me all sounds but chuff and I am able to adjust the volume on all of them EXCEPT Master Vol. CVB 133 (on either loco).
3. I do hear a coupler clank on the Paragon when I enter a CV on the Paragon. Can't remember on the Blue LIne CF. I think the headlight flashes in response.
4. If hearing the whistle and the bell shows that neither decoder is locked then I guess they're not. I re-read the section on locking decoders and don't think this applies to my situation (?)5. I played with the chuff increase decrease CVs and no change (sound).6.Tried CV 204 and 205 but no changes or sounds.7. I still don't understand function mapping entirely.
Time to try looking at the chuff sensor and wiring for a mechanical fault?
Thanks so much everyone. I'll come back after my more experienced tech-ish guy takes a look. He's still relatively new to this but has installed numerous decoders and taken steam apart.
Some of the newer decoders BLI is using (newer as in, since 2007...) have the automatic open cylinder c.ocks. So, the first several revolutions of the drivers will only elicit a hiss. Then the chuff starts. This was first evident to me when I replaced all but one QSI decoder chip in the summer of 2007 when QSI was able to offer their upgrades with BEMF and new sound files. I noticed it in the chip for the Pennsy 2-10-4, for example, and my latest engines, the PCM Y6b, UP TTT-6, and others all have this initial hissing prior to onset of the chuff as the engine rolls out.
As I mentioned in the earlier post, if the chuffs don't start right away, but the hiss of steam venting can be heard, your decoder is doing what it's supposed to. Cheaper decoders don't have that ability and just start out with chug-chug-chug. I have a BLI 2-10-4 that works exactly like what you're describing.
However, if you don't like that feature, try setting CV 3 (momentum) to zero. It seems to me that I read somewhere in the instructions that there has to be a "value other than zero" in the momentum CV for that sound to work...but I might be remembering it wrong.
But before you change it, does your engine sound like these examples??
Video sample 1 Video sample 2
Capt. GrimekIt's taking a few revolutions (haven't counted yet) before the chuff kicks in. But at least they SEEM to be back. I tired adjusting CV 39 function mapping for F5 increasing magnitude. No change noted so far. Also pressing F6 isn't making any changes. All other sounds seem to be there. I do not get an answering beep for the chuff CV receipt.
I tired adjusting CV 39 function mapping for F5 increasing magnitude. No change noted so far. Also pressing F6 isn't making any changes. All other sounds seem to be there. I do not get an answering beep for the chuff CV receipt.
My opinion right now is that you should take a step back, get the decoder reset, and see what the engine does without changing anything else, with the possible exception of CV133, sound unit master volume. I'd adjust this to a value that allows you to stay in the room with the unit without breaking your eardrums.
I don't know why you are changing CV 39. CV 39 on the Paragon 2 instruction booklet I have (page 17) seems to be associated with F6, not F5. And unless you have a different set of instructions the default for F5 is to activate the blow down sound when the engine is stopped, and increase the chuff volume every time it is pressed when the engine is moving. There is an associated CV 204, chuff magnitude increment, that dictates the magnitude of change for each press of F5.
The F6 default description says that it is water fill/increase chuff magnitude when the engine is moving. However, when you read the accompanying paragraph, it says that "pressing F6 when the engine is moving decreases the chuff volume with each press". Obviously there is a conflict. I think it unlikely that both F5 and F6 will increase the chuff volume. I suspect that F6 is the decrease volume function key. There is an associated CV 205, chuff magnitude decrement, that "dictates the magnitude change per F6 press".
What's that you say? You don't find CV 204 and 205 on the list of CV in the booklet. Well, neither did I. But they are shown on pages 158 and 159 of the Paragon 2 Steam Technical Reference Manual, http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/manuals/P2%20Steam%20Tech%20Ref%201.01.pdf. And on page 159 it does say that F6 decreases chuff magnitude.
And while we're in the technical reference, see page 150. There is a description of CV 196 which they call "steam cocks chuff event count". If you read that description it seems to have something to do with when the "normal" chuffing starts. There is also something that states that if the engine is just starting up, or has been sitting for more than 30 seconds the sound effect will be different.
(Boy, I'm sure glad that I'm not a steam guy. All these sounds are TMI. I'm happy with just horn and bell.)
Now once you get this engine straightened out, hopefully by putting a white line through the cab number and replacing it with a couple GP9s, maybe you can attack your other problem child.
(Ummm, wait a minute, which engine did you say you were working with???)
Sometimes people get frustrated and overlook the obvious. At that point its often wise to have a second pair of eyes look at it.
I'm heading over to a friend's bigger layout to give the Cab Forward a run and see if the chuffs behave and how they do.
I've had no luck with the Paragon Hudson J1e yet.
I'll get back to you all this evening with a report. I wish the DCC/CV thing wasn't often so...finicky!
Is there any way to know if the decoder IS locked?
I'm getting some faith that I can EVENTUALLY work this out with your generous help but...we'll see. Thanks again. Your guys are a good stress reliever!
I AM hearing steam release sounds before the CF travels up to a reasonable speed. I WISH I could remember if that was the case when I last ran it a couple of moths ago.
Capt. GrimekAt the time we were trying to change the address from 03 the cab number.
I think that sometimes these things have a mind of their own. The Paragon 2 4-4-6-4 I mentioned earlier is not mine, but belongs to a clubmember. He said that he had had the engine running okay, but then had not used it for awhile. When he got around to running it again he couldn't get it to run on the long address. It would run on default address 3, with all the sounds, etc, but it would not accept a change to a long address.
He said he had fooled with the thing for two weeks, had gone through the CV reset change several times, and had removed the tender shell to use the push button reset as well. I offered to bring it home and see if I could get it to do what he wanted. I'm not an expert by any definition, but I started to wonder if he had had locked the decoder, and went so far as to download the appropriate pages from the technical manual on the BLI website.
Then I put the engine on the track and tried to run it on address 3 and it was happy as a clam. So, wanting to see if I could change the address, I did the programming on the main thing, and the DCC system asked me what long address I wanted. I put that in and tried it, and away the engine went. He has programmed engines before, so I don't know what he was doing different. He has a PowerCab that he can use on a test track in his shop, and has a PowerPro to run his railroad. I have a PowerPro, so there should be no difference in the way the DCC systems handled the programming.
Anyway, it was fun to call him up and say "what-chu talkin about, Willis?" and then blow the horn and ring the bell into his answering machine.
Depending on how many sounds the decoder can make at the same time, BOTH sounds should be there at startup, both the cylinder cocks venting steam and water (water in the cylinders is bad!) and the chuff as the valves change position. Once the cylinders warm up and the steam is no longer condensing the cylinder cocks are closed and the rushing steam sound stops and the chuffs become more obvious. This isn't really speed dependent but that's the easiest way to implement it in a decoder. Sometimes there is also a manual function. Loksound does this very well as you start out slowly. Steam escape, wheels start turning, then a chugg underneatht he steam, and as speed increases the steam sound stops and just the chuffs are heard.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If the chuffs do start as the engine speeds up, it probably means everything is correct as is.
I'm not a steam expert so I can't explain this in precise technical terms, but steam engines when starting often have more of a long 'whoooosh' sound, as a lot of steam is being forced into the cylinders and the excess is blowing off (from sort of like a safety valve) rather than going up the stack. It takes a few revolutions of the wheels before the 'chuffs' start.
A couple of my BLI engines with QSI sound simulate that, so you don't hear the chuffs when you start really slow, it has to get up to a certain speed before the whooosh sound is replaced with individual chuff-chuff-chuffs. It could be that's what's happening here. Unfortunately most sound decoders don't bother with that, so many people probably have never heard it before, especially if they haven't had much exposure to real steam in operation.
There's probably also a CV that sets the operation of the chuff sensor as well, since chuff sensors can be on the wheel or on the motor shaft - I'm pretty sure the ones in question are ont he motor shaft - and si require different chuffs per revolution. On steam locos withotu chuff sensors a little momentum in CV3 allows the sounds to start before the loco moves.
A reset is good for fixing anythign that gets messd up, as it is supposed to reset ALL CVs to factory defaults. So if you've messed up function mappings, or sound options, or whatever, a reset can get you back to a known starting point. The defaults may not be exactly correct for what you want, but if you've changed a bunch of things and don't rememebr exactly what, or fat fingered a CV number and changed something you didn't even realize you changed, the reset will get you back. This is also why DecoderPro is good. No need to try an interpret a 200 page manual full of CV values.
The Chuffs should start within a half turn of the driver wheels since they are triggered by a chuff sensor.
It's a good sign that you got some noise after a reset. :)
At the time we were trying to change the address from 03 the cab number. He was using the Soundtraxx clip on booster.
The chuff was already absent. I'm assuming that since our starting point was 03 and that we were trying to give it a cab # address (before we tackled restoring the chuff) that we never reset to default settings.
My wife is sleeping on the other side of the wall so can't test much 'til morning. but the chuffs start after getting up to some speed. I thought I remembered them starting as soon as the loco moved but I'll read up to see what CV might start them at a slower speed later. I'll try a Factory Reset with the Paragon Hudson too and see what happens in the a.m. I'm still very new to DCC.
I guess I thought that a reset was only necessary if one lost all motor control or all sound. I guess a short or running a turnout the wrong way (even with PSX breakers) can "rob" the programming of only one sound? (Chuff in this case). Am I understanding that aspect correctly? Thanks guys. I'll let you know if everything is restored tomorrow or need more trouble shooting. It's a great relief to have instant help as I learn.
According to the manual, you should be able to reset the decoders (at least the Paragon 2) by changing a CV. The button in the tender should be the last resort.
And you will have better luck re-programming the main. If you were using the program track you might not have had enough "ummph" and might not have been actually changing any of the values.
The engine will make an audible sound every time you make a CV value change that the engine accepts. The sound the one I'm playing with is either a coupler clank or a reverse gear (I'm not a steam guy so I don't know the engine sounds). Did you hear anything from the engine when you made the CV changes?
We tried to increase the CV just to see if we could spring it to life after failing at other approaches.
We may have only been working with the CVs for the chuff and did not reset. I'll ask him and I'll try a reset with the throttle. He used a programming track. Maybe I'll try it in OPS mode on the main and see if anything changes (?).
The only thing I did with both locos was store them in a nice dry drawer for a couple of months while I laid track. Thanks for the help. Randy and David B. (If you see this...) Any other ideas?
I'll try with NCE at a friends tomorrow just for kicks. I'm using a DT400 simplex throttle at home.
I know about the Broadway limited forum/site but wanted to check with my trusted cohorts here, lst.
My wife would like my attention, so I'll check messages again later tonight. Thanks!
Kind of weird that 2 chuff sensors would go bad the same time. I'd start with the paragon 2. First set CV8 to 8 for a reset to see if it returns. If not then press the reset button inside the loco. Also ask yourself if anything was done around the time before it happened?
Good Luck