Thanks. My plan is to run bus wires around the whole layout eventually, once I've decided on a final plan etc. I've read before advice to put feeders anything between every 3 feet to every seperate piece of track. I'll probably start with every 3 feet or so and then fill in the gaps in between as I progress.
Thanks for the correction, PCP board just wasn't coming to me, so thingy it was!
For the 2 connections I have now I did manage to stuff 2 wires into each connection point on the PCP. It wasn't easy. I'd bought a reel of 14 guage solid copper wire for the bus wires I'm eventually going to install (I bought 2 different color sleeving so I can differentiate the wires I put to each rail, probably the first smart thing I've done here!), but I couldn't get 2 of those in each connector. I managed to fit one 14 guage solid and a random stranded wire that I had lying around from installing a light a while ago in each. Not a permanent set up obviously, but serves a purpose right now.
The original set up had the loops essentially jumpered as you say. Hornby supply a connector set to do just that.
http://www.hornby.com/power-and-accessories-90/r8201/product.html
It basically slides into openings in the plastic between the ties making contact with each rail, then a couple of wires under the track to another slid into the other loop.
Dan
CoopedOk, last thing I did last night was wire both the inner loop and outer loop with seperate wires
Glad you got if fixed. I'm wondering, though, how you had it connected before versus how you have it connected now. Are you now going from the panel "thingy" to a barrier strip and then splitting off with two pair of wires to each loop? Or did you somehow manage to stuff a pair of wires into each connection point on the back of the PCP?
And how was it wired originally? Did you have a barrier strip near the first loop that you tapped off of to connect to the second loop, or did you somehow just jumper the loops together?
Regards
Great to see you got it running. It's just one of many things you'll have to learn the hard way. It keeps things interesting. Now you have 2 feeders which is much better. Over time you should add additional feeders, otherwise you'll learn another thing. In time the rail joiner connection deteriorate and create dead spots. Adding feeders and/or soldering the joiners will prevent this.
Springfield PA
CoopedOk, last thing I did last night was wire both the inner loop and outer loop with seperate wires direct from the thingy with the LED in.
Cooped,
Glad to hear that everything is running smoothly for you. FYI: The "thingy with the LED" that your Power Cab plugs into is referred to as a PCP panel.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Ok, last thing I did last night was wire both the inner loop and outer loop with seperate wires direct from the thingy with the LED in. Now it all works perfectly, I can switch all the turn outs and run trains through them with no problems at all! Still would like to know why those connectors between the loops messed things up.
I have no experience with any of the Hornby track products, but if their turnouts are similar to Peco, the rails that diverge from the frog change polarity according to which stock rail the points are touching.
If you don't have plastic insulated rail joiners at the diverging track's frog, and are throwing the turnouts by hand, this can cause a short circuit if they are not thrown at exactly the same time.
Insulated rail joiners at the frog on both ends should solve your problem.
Tried switching the wires around, just made things worse. Yes outer circumference to outer circumference, inner to inner.
I'm throwing the switches by hand.
Switched to DC for a bit so my son could run a few of his. No problems with shorts or anything with DC.
Coopedthe outside rails were conected and the inside rails were connected
Just to be clear, when you say outside rails and inside rails you do mean that the rails that form the outer circumference of each oval are connected together, and the rails that form the inner circumference of each oval are connected, correct?
How are you throwing the turnouts...by hand or by switch machine of some type?
Another thing you can try if you want to experiment a bit is just separate the two ovals right at the point where the frog ends of the two turnouts form the crossover. You only need enough to have a small air gap between the rail ends. Then you can throw the turnouts with all your wires connected and see if the problem reoccurs. Of course you won't be able to run a train through at that point. If separating the tracks works, you would need to put insulated rail joiners at the two spots where you created the air gap.
Well try reversing the wires anyway to see if it clears the problem
Since you haven't finished, consider an additional turnout. The plan on the site you attached gets you to the inner loop but doesn't get you out without backing up. Adding a turnout to get out will help.
The wires connecting the 2 ovals seems to be the problem (right on the money there Hamltonblue), although they were correctly placed. When I removed the connecting wires no more problems. I am confused now as to why, the outside rails were conected and the inside rails were connected so I'm haviong trouble figuring out why this was causing a problem.
The tracks are not fixed down yet, I'm still experimenting with the final layout plan. I'm planning on using bus wires in the end for power feeds.
Progress!
Also you said there are wires connecting between the inner and outer loop. make sure that the wires didn't get crossed. Start by disconnecting the wires to the inner loops. It's possible that when you throw the switch if the wires are crossed, throwing the switch might result in the short.
If you post a pic of your actual layout and a turnout installed in your layout it might help some.
By the way is your track nailed or glued down at this point?
Yes that's right. I tried to do post the link to the blown up picture, guess that didn't work.
HamltnblueIf you have a camera post a pic of your layout
If I understand one of Cooped's posts correctly, the track diagram is as shown on the link he gave: http://www.hornby.com/track-91/r8224/product.html. At first glance there does not appear to be a trackplan there, but if you look to the right and just below the large track component picture, you'll see a small track plan. If you click on that, a larger version appears.
It doesn't sound like an open circuit. A short would likely be the case. If you have a camera post a pic of your layout and a close up of a turnout you are using.
One of the reasons that a short isn't shutting down the entire layout is if you don't have a buss with multiple feeder wires a short may not be enough for the protection to kick in because of the added resistance of the track and each joiner in between.
What is the 'open circuit' Lee is talking about in his post above?
Problem occurs when any turnout is thrown, not just into the inner oval, and remember it happens seemingly randomly also without throwing the switches.
The turnouts have insulated frogs.I have run a train succesfully through the 2 turnouts from the outer to inner oval.
Cooped I do have a link between the outer and inner oval to transfer power. I'm not sure what you mean by stub or double ended sidings. There is only 1 track on the sidings if that's a clue.
Two ovals linked? Does the problem occur when you throw the two turnouts that connect one oval to the other?
And by double ended, I mean when you come off the main onto the siding and continue forward, would the engine run off the end of the track (stub ended), or is there another turnout that allows the engine to return to the main (double ended)?
And are the Hornby turnouts constructed such that the frog is electrically dead (insulated), or are they of the power routed type where the frog polarity is switched by the position of the point rails?
CoopedCan anyone explain this if both are caused by shorts?
I'm not sure of the answer to this. Try wearing long pants and see if the problem goes away
Thanks all again. Maxman, the turnouts are Hornby and right now I am only connecting power in one spot so the sidings are not wired seperately. I do have a link between the outer and inner oval to transfer power. I'm not sure what you mean by stub or double ended sidings. There is only 1 track on the sidings if that's a clue.
One thing that is confusing me is if a create a short by either touching the 2 connector wires together or by bridging the two rails then the whole system shuts off, handset and all, but this problem only results in power loss to the track and the LED going out. Can anyone explain this if both are caused by shorts?
Oh and yes it is beautiful here today so trains or no trains I can see the bbq being lit regardless!
Dan I would not worry about the number of locos so much. I can run two double header short trains with sound and with another loco are two siting on the layout.If you mean that the Power Cab keeps recycling or resetting it must be a short or an open circuit some were. The panel Red light indicates the "PC" is supplying power and the locos should not run if the red light is off.I would try to isolate a section of track to run the locos on to see if the problem goes away. An old trouble shooters motto, If you have power in but no power out break it down into smaller sections until the problem is isolated.Try wiggling the connectors if something is shorting or open intermittent.
Good luck
Lee
CoopedI then started to change the switches aand that seems to make the problem happen. Move the switch from the main line to the siding the the LED goes off, move it back and after a pause it comes back on.
Now it is definitely beginning to sound like an intermittent short. What type of turnout (brand) are you using and how are you powering the siding? And is it a stub siding or double ended?
Prompted by Pete's comments about shorts I've done some more investigating. A little more history on the thing....... I've very much in the beginings stage of my layout. When I bought it I basically had a fairly large loop set up och Bachmann N/S easy track and it ran fine. I'm a Brit and I've just returned from vacation visiting family in the UK and I stocked up on Hornby stuff while I was there. I'm now building a smaller layout essentially for my son/me to play around with based on the Hornby track mat plan using the track from their sets and a couple of extension kits. The plan built is basically that on the following link: http://www.hornby.com/track-91/r8224/product.html
So no I realize I have added that extra complexity to it with a few switches to boot. The following was done with nothing on the track. I tried disconnecting the wires from the track completely. The LED stays lit and now seems stable on (sorry NCE, looks like it's a problem my end!). Then I attached 1 wire back to the track, LED stable on, then the other. At this point the problem comes back. I then started to change the switches aand that seems to make the problem happen. Move the switch from the main line to the siding the the LED goes off, move it back and after a pause it comes back on.
So now I think I'm exposing my electronic ignorance! I'm going to research this, but in the meantime if anyone knows how to overcome this I would appreciate the help!
Thanks again
Cooped the red indicator light goes off both when trains are running and when they are not. The handset display stays on when the red indicator light goes out. Wall outlet is fine, power is still being recieved by the unit as handset stays on.
Did you buy the system at a local hobby shop? If so, take it back, explain what is happening, and ask if they'll swap it for a new one. That's what the owner of one of our local shops would do.
If this was a mail order purchase, give NCE a call during the day on Tuesday and give the explanation. I've called them in the past and have always been satisfied with the results.
Of course waiting won't make you happy, but if it is a nice day where you are you can always grill a steak or three and have some potato salad, chips, and beer.
If the display is on while it happens, try looking at the patch panel. Look for any bad connections or bad solder joints.
Hi all
thanks for the responses. I'll try and answer all the questions.
Maxman, the red indicator light goes off both when trains are running and when they are not. The handset display stays on when the red indicator light goes out. Wall outlet is fine, power is still being recieved by the unit as handset stays on.
Pete, yes I'm using the flat cable plugged into the left socket. The trains do run when the light is on. The led light stays on when trains are removed from the track, and the LED going off and on continues regardless of whether there are any trains on the track or not. I can't see any evidence of bent pins in either of the 2 sockets.
Cacole, The maximum number of loco's I've tried to run is 2. As I mentioned in the response to Pete above the LED goes on and off even when there are no trains on the track.
How many locomotives do you have on the layout -- you may be overloading the Powercab's power supply and the internal circuit breaker keeps turning it off. The stock transformer is only around 1.5 Amps. You may need a power booster or more hefty power supply if such is available for the Powercab.
These are the most common problems. Are you using the flat cable plugged into the left socket on the panel? Look into the sockets and check the little gold pins to see if any are bent or loose. Remove all the locos from the tracks and see if the red LED stays lit. Perhaps a wheel is shorting on a frog or switch point. Check these and let us know what happens.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
CoopedThe digital display keeps reading exactly the same while there is now power to the tracks, but nothing can be adjusted until power is restored.
Can you make this clearer?
Are you saying that a train is running, and then stops when the red indicator goes out? Or does the red indicator go on and off while no train is running? Or does the handset display stay on when the red indicator goes out?
And try plugging the transformer into another wall outlet. I've had wall outlets go bad.
A couple of weeks ago I posted a few times while making my decision to buy the NCE powercab. Initially I was very pleased with it. Then I went on vacation for a week, now I'm back a problem has appeared. The red LED indicating power to the tracks keeps going off and the trains are stopped dead in their tracks. It does not appear to be a short as this would shut the whole unit down. The digital display keeps reading exactly the same while there is now power to the tracks, but nothing can be adjusted until power is restored.
I've wiggled every connection I can to see if anything is loose and nothing jumps out as an obvious poor connection.
Does anyone have any idea what is going on?
Thanks