Craig North Carolina
I have a couple of links for you.
This link is a fairly good starter for signals. It's links cover almost everything from simple to computer controlled. It also shows where signals should be located on a track diagram.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzescsbb/HO_MRR/Signals/Signals_getting_started1.html
This next link will take you to a company that has just what you are looking for. Look for the products "Block Animator' and "Signal Animator".
http://www.logicrailtech.com/index.htm
Hope this helps.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Automatic block signals are located at the entrance to a block of track. You need some kind of train detection that outputs a signal Block Occupied/Block Empty. The blocks need to be long enough to hold a typical train and you need a detector for each block. For each block signal you need to realize the following logic
Red = This Block occupied
Yellow = This Block empty AND next block occupied.
Green = This block empty AND next block empty.
Detectors can sense current draw by the locomotive (the Twin Tee circuit). Twin Tee was designed back in the days of DC operation and I don't believe it works with DCC. Or small permanent magnets on the rolling stock that open and close magnetic reed switches buried in the road bed, or optical sensors that either look at the ceiling lights and activate when the train shades them, or reflective Infrared (IR) types that shine a IR beam up thru the road bed and activate when the IR is reflected off the bottom of the train back into the sensor, or laser beams shining into photosensors that the train interrupts.
Electronics can be of the one-circuit-per-signal type which has inputs for this block occupied and next block occupied and has Red, Yellow, and Green outputs. Sometimes this circuit is combined into the train detector modules.
Or, you can obtain a digital input output (IO) card for a PC. Wire all the detectors and all the signals to the IO card and write a PC program that scans all the train detectors and sets the signals Red Yellow or Green as required. Old PC's are cheap (my dump has a pile of them) and the needed IO cards are not terribly expensive.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Atlas makes a nice signal system. You don't have to use their signals with their controls so you can purchase the detection and control boards seperatly. They connect together with modular telephone cables.
Gate 5
Craig,
This is just one opinion, but, it follows the view of several of the great masters from the early days of the hobby.
Signaling is very complex even in its most basic forms. first, you should learn a little about prototype signals and how they control traffic.
Then, think about the possiblity of modeling interlocking signals, the signals used to control traffic at turnouts, crossovers, crossings, and junctions - rather than modeling block signals which basicly just space trains out on long stretches so they don't run into each other.
Actually, interlocking signals are also block signals in most cases, but by focusing your signal system design on them, and eleminating other intermediate block signals, you can build a useful and prototypical signal system that will actually help you run the trains.
In many cases, on our model layouts, we don't have long stretches of mainline, so only putting signals at turnouts and juctions (interlocking signals, also known as absolute signals) we can simplify some aspects of the wiring and make the signal actually tell the engineer useful information - is the route set correctly? Is the track ahead clear? and possibly - do I have clearance to proceed.
CTC like operation can be build into such a system without building a full fuctioning CTC panel. In fact there isa a good argument to be made for not building a full function CTC panel on all but the largest layouts.
If you undersand how a light switch works, and have patience, you can understand some simple wiring diagrams that would let you learn and wire such a system.
How do you plan to control the switch machines? I can give you some control diagrams that would intergrate the turnout controls and signaling all into one system using a single lighted pushbutton to select each route at a typical junction. This combined with any detector you prefer, can be used for a signal system like I discribe.
Be warned - in my opinion, systems like those from Atlas and others are both expensive and complex - because the nature of this cannot be one size fits all. In real life they are desgined for each situation - to "modularize" it actaully makes it more complex and expensive. This is especially true if you try to model interlocking signals has I have suggested.
I don't know how big your layout will be, but from what you have said, a system like I am sugesting could work well. I would eliminate yellow signals for the most part. Our layouts are generally too small for yellow signals to have much use. Yellow indications would still be used for routes that always operate at restricted speeds, and signals would still "look" as if they could display "yellow" but in fact most would never do so, they would simply tell engineers, yes - you can go, no you must stop. The other exception to this would be what is called an "approach" signal. On the prototype it is a signal that tells the engineer in advance the condition of an "absolute" signal ahead. So when the signal ahead is green, the approach signal is green, when the absolute signal is red, the approach signal is yellow.
I know this is likely a lot to digest if you are not familiar with prototype signals, but I hope it helps.
Feel free to ask more questions.
And, understand, this is just one view, others will be against my ideas, others will suggest other methods.
Sheldon
Digitrax has a "plug & play"
I haven't had occasion to see this signaling system in action but know guys who have and they seemed pretty impressed with it. From what I understand it a fully inclusive system designed to pretty much give you everything you need. It's limitations though are it seems to have been intended for use with N scale so if your running HO you would need to adapt signals to it and from what one of the guys told me he would do that even if running N. The Atlas system does seem impressive as well. I have a buddy who is a electronics expert and also a model railroader who has told me signaling operation is no big deal easy for him to say. He has offered to help me do my signaling on my layout. He didn't have to ask me twice.
http://www.digitrax.com/menu_detectionsignaling.php
I have a section that uses block signals. This is one of my brass signals. Drawing a blank on both the signal manufacturer and controls maker. Both are small shops.
Springfield PA
logicrailtechnoligies.com good stuff
AikidomasterTricky Trev, I am most definitely interested. Any information and help is greatly appreciated.
Hi Craig,
Here is a photo of a typical board installed in each signalling block (makes your DCC bus a bit segmented, but you cannot avoid that). I'm revising the detailed instructions (now 23 pages) to make some parts of the design clearer to the "general public" - not just us engineers.
This is NOT a plug & play signalling system, although digitrax's isn't either, although it claims to be...
Board size is around 25mm x 65 mm (1" x 2" for the imperial people...). LED's are temporarily soldered on in this case just for the photo - in reality they go to the home and approach/distant signals at each end of the block: 1 board drives 4 signals!
The yellow is simply a duplicate of red, and there are two green outputs too. This is quasi-3-aspect signalling. ie. 2 aspect that looks like 3 aspect. The reason is that most layouts aren't realistically big enough for a full-blown 3-aspect signalling system.
The stand-alone yellow LED is the detection status, so you can display it on a panel or CTC.
If you (or anyone else) want more details, then i will probably post more info online if demand is there.
Hope this helps!
Trev
As others have said, signaling is a complex subject. It all depends on how much you want to spend, and how much trouble you want to go to. I use signals as turnout indicators. A facing turnout will show either green for straight, or yellow for the diverging route. Coming from the other way, the signal will show either green, or red, if the turnout is set against the train. It's not prototype, but neither is a model railroad. It looks good, and with a double track mainline, and a dozen turnouts and crossovers, not counting yards, it tells me which way every turnout is set. Running a yellow light is not a problem. Running a red light will cause a derailment. The only cost to me was a signal and an Atlas relay for each signal.
Sorry, just want to make a correction. Our website is www.logicrailtech.com. Thanks to those of you who suggested our products. :)
willy6 logicrailtechnoligies.com good stuff
Before you decide, you should also check out Team Digital at www.teamdigital1.com
Like the other suppliers mentioned, they have a logic board which comes preconfigured for plug-and-play signal operations. It comes in several configurations, including grade crossing control, but also has the benefit of being user configurable. I did my signal system last year, and for me, the user-configurable option was the clincher. Plug-and-play sounds nice in concept, but as one poster noted above, it's all about your specific track plan, and odds are if you want to get something reasonably close to prototypical signals you'll need to do a bit of customizing to fit your situation.
Other factors to consider when evaluating which system to select:
- What prototype signal operation do you want to model - CTC or ABS?
- What type of train detection is best for you? Optical or infra-red are simple but location-specific; current draw detection is more prototypical but you'll need resistant wheelsets on both ends of the train, and possibly in the middle also, to get the correct results.
- If you go with current draw detection, there are two types to choose from. One system actually routes your track power through a board. This creates a slight voltage drop and might be an issue if you're running long, lighted passenger trains with multiple locos. The other type uses an electromagnetic field to detect current draw (your track feed wire is run through the hole of a metal 'donut'); this is the route I chose.
My sense is that all of the systems mentioned so far are good. Each has distinct characteristics which may be a strength or a weakness, depending on your particular layout specifics and modeling desires. I would also add that they're worth every penny, even if they do cost as much or more than a good loco or two. After all, how many layouts have you visited which have a good loco or two on them? OK, now how many have you seen with a working, prototypical signal system?
Good luck!
I use the CML Electronics (http://www.cmlelectronics.co.uk) SIGM-10 boards for control & logic and Oregon Rail Supply (http://www.oregonrail.com) signals. The CML systems is well documented with example tutorial as well. Their boards are directly compatible with Digitrax block occupancy detection devices and can be programmed either for on-board control logic with their supplied software utility program, OR their boards can be driven by Train Controller software from RR & Co. I like this combo most because I use the Oregon's single target signals with bi-modal LEDs and the CML boards can turn them green, red, or, through dithering, can turn them yellow as well. Believe me . . this feature alone is a HUGE money saver in signal wiring complexity and signal cost! Cheers.