i have a fairly complicated double ended seven track, hidden staging yard with reverse loops for both directions. you can imagine the number of switches. in some cases i need to throw or make sure up to 10 switches are in the correct position to make sure a train can go through the yard end to end.
i want to throw 1 switch and have it all done for TRACK 1. throw another and Track 2 is set end to end and so on. in some cases this would be 4 switches, in others up to 10.
i have a solenoid wired to each switch, ~50% atlas - 50%peco.i have an old power pack with the nessecary AC for solenoids.This same power pack also feeds the digitrax DCC unit. i have the cheap atlas push down throw switches.
i work for the phone company so complicated wireing is not my problem. i already have a picture in my head what it would look like.
what i'm wondering is can this be done without running it all though DCC and buying more equipment.(what are they called, dc64)
will throwing alot of solenoids at the same time with the AC effect my digitrax unit feeding off the DC of the same power pack.
can it be done with the equipment i have now. how many solenoids can a power pack throw at the same time. would there be burnout issues like with the pack it self or the atlas push button switch having to fire 10 solenoids at once or the guage of wire feeding that switch.
i have no idea the draw of a solenoid but i can't imagine it is much. i know from house wireing a bathroom fan, it needs a much bigger switch than the simple power rating of the fan. when you deal with motion you have to deal with inductive power to get it started. i'm wondering if it is the same with solenoids, you need an instantanious high burst to get it moving.
The DS 64's have a built in capacitor discharge unit. they can be set up to align routes as well as individual switches. The DS 64's throw each switch in the selected route independently until the route alignment is completed so as not to overtax the track power if you choose to use it. I have one DS 64 on a module throwing two crossovers (four solenoids) using track power and does not effect the rest of the operating layout.
It also depends on the power output of the power pack you are using to power your DCC system. It would also be nice to know what DCC unit you have and what old PP you are using to power it.
i'm hoping to do it without buying DS64's - No DCC. can it be worked by poping a single switch to fire all the solenoids off the AC.
will i blow something up in my testing by firing that many solinoids at once.
i'm at work now and can get the power pack models. it's been a long time since i thought about it but i think it was called the digitrax Chieften, booster plus wireless remote throtle. i can't remember but 5 amp booster comes to mind.
Ian_gallaugheri have a fairly complicated double ended seven track, hidden staging yard with reverse loops for both directions. you can imagine the number of switches. in some cases i need to throw or make sure up to 10 switches are in the correct position to make sure a train can go through the yard end to end. i want to throw 1 switch and have it all done for TRACK 1. throw another and Track 2 is set end to end and so on. in some cases this would be 4 switches, in others up to 10. i have a solenoid wired to each switch, ~50% atlas - 50%peco.i have an old power pack with the nessecary AC for solenoids.This same power pack also feeds the digitrax DCC unit. i have the cheap atlas push down throw switches.
Well, it sounds like you may already have that power pack overloaded, especially if you have a Super Chief. There aren't many (toy train) power packs that put out 5 amps, let alone have that plus a reserve for solenoid switch machines.
Ian_gallaugher i work for the phone company so complicated wireing is not my problem. i already have a picture in my head what it would look like. what i'm wondering is can this be done without running it all though DCC and buying more equipment.(what are they called, dc64)
Without using DCC? Sure, no problem.
Without buying more equipment? Not likely, since some of your current equipment (the power pack) is likely overloaded as it is.
Ian_gallaugher will throwing alot of solenoids at the same time with the AC effect my digitrax unit feeding off the DC of the same power pack.
Yes, it will most likely affect your DCC. Remember, that power pack has a limited, finite output capability. You've probably exceeded it already, and adding even more load certainly won't improve the situation.
Ian_gallaugher can it be done with the equipment i have now. how many solenoids can a power pack throw at the same time. would there be burnout issues like with the pack it self or the atlas push button switch having to fire 10 solenoids at once or the guage of wire feeding that switch. i have no idea the draw of a solenoid but i can't imagine it is much. i know from house wireing a bathroom fan, it needs a much bigger switch than the simple power rating of the fan. when you deal with motion you have to deal with inductive power to get it started. i'm wondering if it is the same with solenoids, you need an instantanious high burst to get it moving.
How many solenoids can be thrown at once depends on the draw of the solenoids and the power output of the supply. With a power pack that's probably hanging on for dear life, then yes, throwing ten solenoids at once could let out the magic smoke. Remember that solenoids draw quite a bit of power. That's why they make CD units for them.
My advice, for the bare minimum you propose, is to get a proper power supply for the Super Chief, and then see what you can do with using the power pack for the solenoids only. That way, you only risk burning up the power pack and not the Chief.
Can't agree more with Steve's comments. Step 1, get a proper power supply for your Digitrax system, lest you become one of these people who complains that your locos randomly reprogram themselves and things don't run right. The voltage drop every time you fire off a solenoid switch machine isn't doing your DCS100 any good. If you want to save $10, the NCE P515 is the same thing as the Digitrax PS515 and many dealers sell it for $10 less than the Digitrax one.
It MIGHT then work - but unless you have some heavy wiring I doubt it. Firing 5 or more solenoid switch machines at the same time take a lot of power, and heavy wires to get that power in place. Your best bet for the next step is to get a CD power supply. This is an inexpensive item - also simple to DIY, check sites like Rob Paisley's for circuit diagrams. With the added oomph of the CD supply it will be able to handle multiple solenoids at one time. And you will also never burn one out again as the continuous current is limited to such a low value even N scale Atlas ones won't burn out if a button gets stuck.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
To throw multiple turnouts with 1 switch you WILL need more equipment, but just what is up to you. Since you are using solinoids you can use the diode matrix wiring to control the turnouts and prevent back feeds, but you need to buy the diodes. Check the magazine index on this site for the articles, but the last one published is probably a good 10 years ago. A capacitor discharge power supply will increase the reliability a lot.
Since you have a DCC system already, the DS64 will simplify the instalation. You will need the DCC to program the routes, but simple mometary on pushbuttons can be used to throw the turnouts, one per route. I'm using a separate 1a transformer for the turnouts (Tortise in my case) and radio receivers.
Phil
Timber Head Eastern Railroad "THE Railroad Through the Sierras"
The coils of twin-coil switch machines consume more power than you might believe - but only for the half-second or so needed to get the points moved. The momentary overload won't bother a heavy-duty filament transformer, but it will adversely effect anything running off another coil of a toy train power pack.
Diode matrix wiring is one way to fire a whole route worth of switch machines with a single push of a button - but it had better be an industrial strength normally-off SPST button. Those Atlas switch machine controllers have been known to die under the load of ONE Atlas switch machine. I wouldn't go beyond that.
A Capacitive Discharge circuit stores the switch-throwing power in a capacitor, while the accompanying load-limiting resistor keeps from overloading the windings of the power supply. That same resistor will protect the switch machine(s) if a control button shorts out. Of necessity, the CD supply is DC - but you need to use DC in order to operate a diode matrix. It's a win-win situation, for less (in parts) than the price of a single DCC control widget for a single switch machine.
Wiring is a pet subject, since I am now doing a bunch of it. From the downstream side of the diode matrix to any given coil, #20, #22 or even the hair-thin wire Atlas sells will carry the intermittent load of a single coil. The common return from all those coils needs to be something more robust - I'm using #14 solid wire, routed through screw termini at strategic locations around the layout, Likewise, the power wire that feeds several machines should be heavier than #20 since it will be feeding several coils at once.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with twin-coil switch machines)
thanks guys. to answer the power issue i looked and i have a Tech ll, Railpower 1400 power supply - variable DC 13V, 18VAC, Total 13VA. this feeds my DB150 digitrax...i spend more time building than running to know this off the top of my head.
well it looks very much like i can't do it the way i was hoping. since i have to buy equipment anyway i will likely look into the DCC route with the DS64s. with operating alot of switches this proves to be too pricey i will look into the other methods listed here.
thank you for the quick and knowledgable answers.
Yes, that is FAR too small to properly power a DB150. Very strange things happen with DCC when you supply the booster with insufficient power and said power supply shuts down before the booster, or just experiences a lot of voltage drop under load. In the case of an overload, it shoudl be the booster that shuts down, NOT the power supply feeding it. Scrambled memory and outof control locos are alikely result.
That Railpower 1400 probably IS enough to feed a CD power supply. There's not reason to switch all turnouts to DCC control if that's not what you want. A CD power supply is $20 or less, especially if you DIY - a lot cheaper than a DS64. Even buying a comemrcial one like the Circuitron Snapper is less expensive than a DS64, especially as it sounds you really don't want to use your DCC system to control turnouts.
I may (?) be biased - I run analog DC - but using power from the DCC system for anything other than rolling stock strikes me as being similar to using Perrier water to wash vegetables. Also, at a dime or so apiece when bought in quantity, you can buy a lot of diodes AND the CD device for the price of one DCC switch machine widget.
One thing I want to reiterate - especially with CD, a diode matrix needs high-capacity pushbuttons, because that momentary spike of power is way beyond what the Atlas switch controllers (or those color-coded minibuttons) are designed to handle. A quick glance at a catalog showed that buttons with a 4 amp or better capacity cost less than a buck, or less than half a buck if purchased in quantities of 10 or more. I personally use the hot probe and stud system, with brass screws for studs and a big stereo plug for a probe. Cheap (my middle name!) and physically impossible to get stuck in the closed position on my just about vertical panels.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
i will look at the CD w diode matrix system then. money isn't the concern. i was more trying for simplicity. building and also running. i didn't want to have to call up a switch addy on my throttle, fire it, switch back to the train. i do like the idea of thoughtlessly pushing a single button on a separate panel.
.. also building and programming isn't easy i have found with DCC reverse loop circuits and switch machines must be the same, time consuming to figure out. if i have to spend time to figure out a DCC system i may as well look into Capcitor discharge instead.
tomikawaTTI may (?) be biased - I run analog DC - but using power from the DCC system for anything other than rolling stock strikes me as being similar to using Perrier water to wash vegetables. Also, at a dime or so apiece when bought in quantity, you can buy a lot of diodes AND the CD device for the price of one DCC switch machine widget. Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chuck,
Actually, in the DCC world, using track power for DCC switch decoders and other such "widgets" is quite common because it's a known, fixed voltage that is also capable of sending commands. You just have to be sure that your DCC system can provide for that "extra" current draw. (That said, I personally prefer to use external power.)
However, the OP has a different situation in that the power pack he's using to power his DCC unit is already way undersized for that duty. Even without adding switch machines into the mix, he's risking burning up his DCC command station/booster because it won't reach the voltage/amp level required for it's internal protection circuitry to trip. In the event of a short on the layout, it will just sit there and smolder. And by taking away even more of that DCC system's input power via switch machines, he's raising that risk level even more.
http://www.teamdigital1.com/prod_catalogue/smd82_product/smd82.html
This stationary decoder handles up to 8 turnouts per board. It accepts local inputs for push buttons. It also handles routes so you can use a single push button to line up all the switches for a particular track. As far as simplicity goes, the hardest part is actually programming in the routes that you want.it also has a built-in capacitive discharge unit for solenoid switch machines. It also does not require huge amounts of power to operate and all the inputs switches can have a lower current rating (cheaper usually).
I know you said you didn't want to use stationary decoders because you didn't want to throw turnouts from a throttle. Even with the DS-64's you don't have to use the throttle to throw the turnout. Almost all stationary decoders have inputs to accept local controls.
On my website, you can see my panels for local control here and here
I use stationary decoders on my mainline because I have a CTC system but I also have local control panels for operators to use during local switching moves.
I hope this information helps.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
I know several easy circuits for one button route selection of even the most complex routes, but they are all designed for slow motion switch machines, not solenoid switch machines.
I use a simple system with inexpensive surplus relays that allow LED lighted pushputtons in the track diagram to be pushed and the button lights to show which track/route is currently selected.
This system can also be used to direct power to the selected track and/or operate trackside signals.
Sheldon
i will acctually explore both avenues of switching.
as for the power i thought i was originally told (by store clerks of rail shop) that my power supply was ok. i can tell you that in the running i have done in the 4 year it's been installed i have not experienced any of the problems it has been assumed i have had or could have.
the suspect PP powers (with the 18VAC connection) the DB150 and also a PM42 for the reverse loops and short protection for the rest of the track. so the short protection is curretly handled by the PM42 but it wasn't always so and there weren't problems then either, it definitly triped frequently.i run 2 new atlas engines and 2 Kato's and occationally an old analog engine all at the same time no problem. never noticed any excessive heat from the equipment.
thinking back i did blow up a PM42 but i'm pretty sure that was 'Operator Error'.
I never had a problem with the Atlas buttons once I installed a CD power supply. I had that layout running for a few years, and the day I installed the CD supply was the end of burned out switch motors (the N scale Atlas ones are particularly delicate). Never did one of my contacts weld. After that layout I switched to using Tortoises and never worried about high power solenoids again.
rrinker I never had a problem with the Atlas buttons once I installed a CD power supply. I had that layout running for a few years, and the day I installed the CD supply was the end of burned out switch motors (the N scale Atlas ones are particularly delicate). Never did one of my contacts weld. After that layout I switched to using Tortoises and never worried about high power solenoids again. --Randy
I'm guessing you know already Randy... just filling in details for those who may not. Correct me if I am wrong please.
The CD supply is the reason. The Atlas switch controls weld pretty easily if connected directly to a solenoid switch machine due to the back emf from the coils field collapsing when the power is removed. It's not the load of the switch machines that cause switches to weld, it's the back emf. The CD unit protects the switches because the switch only fires the CD unit, which handles switching power to the coils. It's the welded switches that then burn out the coils on the switch machines.
The cheapy Atlas buttons can stick due to plastic interference and a general lack of 'springyness' in the plastic as well, long before the actual contacts might be welded.
In theory a CD power supply should INCREASE the BEMF pulse because they send DC to the coil instead of AC, however it could be that by the time you let go of the button, there is only very little current flowing (as limited by the design of the CD supply) so only very little BEMF.
rrinker The cheapy Atlas buttons can stick due to plastic interference and a general lack of 'springyness' in the plastic as well, long before the actual contacts might be welded. In theory a CD power supply should INCREASE the BEMF pulse because they send DC to the coil instead of AC, however it could be that by the time you let go of the button, there is only very little current flowing (as limited by the design of the CD supply) so only very little BEMF. --Randy
Some CD unit circuits contain a diode to block BEMF. However, as a practical matter, in most cases the low resistance of the switch machines makes the CD pulse current drop off to a relatively small value before the button is released (what you said).
Fred W
Our club layout has a similar hidden storage yard - eight tracks plus the main all in a reversing loop situation. Its turnouts are powered by a diode matrix with the one touch buttons for each track. We also have end buttons so that one can select the entrance to the yard to be set to a different track than the exit. That feature just adds a few more buttons and of course diodes.
Anyway it is the ONLY control panel on the layout that everyone likes. All the others with different configurations cause constant arguments and constant change. Every year someone votes to change them to different configurations. Not the hidden yard - It has been the same for 26 years. The only issue it has had started two years ago when there was a big project to "rewire" the whole layout. Someone cross wired a turnout power wire with track wire and it got feedback (since DCC is bi-polar it bypassed 1/2 the diode and caused strange things to happen.) Anyway that was finally found and fixed and life is good again - probably for another 26 years.
The yard is all Atlas turnouts with Atlas turnout motors (except the big double crossover at the main throat). The control panel is a sheet of Masonite with some SPST normally off push buttons found at a surplus place. I don't remember the power source, probably a stock 120V-15V 2 amp transformer.
I'll second the earlier recommendation of the Team Digital decoders. When I did my staging yard a few years ago, they were a lot cheaper, per turnout, than the Digitrax stationary decoder. Programming the routes is a bit complex but the Team Digital website offers a spreadsheet tool that makes it reasonably painless. Plus I have found their customer support is excellent if you have a question or problem. Keep in mind your Chief command station also has switch route capabilities and you can get a large number of route possibilities by nesting the routes on your stationary decoders in master routes on your Chief. You can read about my system in the May '07 Model Railroader.
Hard-wiring the routes may be cheaper still from a component standpoint, but could be more labor-intensive (I know it would be if it were me doing it, anyway). Still, it takes all kinds and maybe there are a few of us whose favorite part of the hobby is spending time under the benchwork ;>} Another advantage of DCC routing is it's easier to reprogram than rewire if you decide on changes somewhere down the line. Finally, I like the flexibility to be able to control switches and routes from my throttle, anywhere in the layout room, rather than being tied to a physical control panel.
Trying to throw 10 switch machines at once poses problems. For one, it will be a HUGE drain on your power supply. For another, you might fry the contacts in the electrical switches you are using to throw the turnouts unless you have purchased some heavy-duty ones. Those are expensive.
I've found the best solution is to use a separate power supply (an old power pack or wall wart will work) and a capacitive disharge unit. You can get a kit for one which can handle 10 switch machines for US$10.60 at <talkingelectronics.com/>. They are in Australia but shipping is quick and inexpensive on such a small item.
Good luck with your railroad.
so i am going with the diode matrix. i found a diagram in a book and it looked rather like i had envisioned. i'm using the tech II power pack to supply it. i bought a CD unit for $32 CAN. i bought the diodes and push putton switches (all 1 amp) for $75. Note: 4 DS64s to do the same job would be $270-not the deciding factor. i like the simpleness of the diode matrix but i can wrap my head around wiring alot easyer than programming routes. in my testing the CD unit can throw 6 solenoids reliably and up to the needed 11 if you hit the button a couple times. so i've decided to split up the switches into two sides A and B so one switch only has to throw half the solenoids. this is probably better anyway as i can just throw the in path to a route if thats all i need.
the questioned tech II is a 1.5 amp supply as near as i can figure so when running the 4 or 5 engines i had it was just enough. i have bought a 3 amp 15v supply to power the DB150 and the tech II now has the other duties.
thanks for all the help
ian.