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Loksound and speaker issue

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Loksound and speaker issue
Posted by tstage on Monday, March 8, 2010 1:24 AM

Greetings all,

Has anyone ever had problems with their Loksound V3.5 decoders eating speakers?  After a couple of months I had to replace the 100 Ohm speaker in my Trix Mike because it started crackling and eventually died.  Now, after ~6 months the replacement 100 Ohm speaker is starting to crackle, too.

I'm trying to identify why this problem is occurring.  Could the decoder itself be burning out the speakers?

[small break]

Okay, I just went back downstairs to check out the whistle and bell.  The bell sounded okay but the whistle and chuff definitely cause the speaker to crackle.  And, after about the 3rd blast of the horn, the speaker has apparently now given up the ghost completely and doesn't work at all.  The motor decoder works fine.

This particular decoder isn't very loud so I don't think I'm over driving the speakers.  Any help, incite, or hair-brained ideas and/or theories are welcome.  Thanks.

Tom

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Posted by cudaken on Monday, March 8, 2010 7:47 AM

  Tom, I had a pair of speakers go bad in my Y6-b, but it is pretty loud. BLI replaced them for free and the comment was made that they are pretty cheap speakers. I have now have had it back for two years, run at low volume and had no other problems. If your Trix Mike has the same sizes tender as my BLI Mike, it not loud due to the sizes of the tender. So you may be pushing the sound system more than you think.

  I would try Ulrich Models, when I added sound to my PCM Big Boy I bought the speakers from them. Steve seems to know what he is talking about. Great customer services as well!

 http://www.ulrichmodels.biz/servlet/StoreFront

 One thing I have been thinking about with my Mike is add a set of speakers to a box car and have it plug into the tender.

  Cuda Ken

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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 8, 2010 7:55 AM

Hey David,

In the tender.  There's a well on the bottom side that just fits a 28mm (1.1") OD speaker quite nicely.  The speaker is also held in place (and sealed) with a 28mm speaker gasket.

I failed to mention that I replaced the original V2.0 Loksound decoder in this Trix Mike for the never V3.5.  I also have another Trix Mike with the original V2.0 decoder but have never had any issues with it - or, the original replaced decoder.

As noted previously, the newer V3.5. decoder is generally quieter than the V2.0 decoder - particular, the chuff.  And the motor control for either version of the decoder continues to be spectacular.

Tom

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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 8, 2010 8:07 AM

cudaken
Tom, I had a pair of speakers go bad in my Y6-b, but it is pretty loud. BLI replaced them for free and the comment was made that they are pretty cheap speakers. I have now have had it back for two years, run at low volume and had no other problems. If your Trix Mike has the same sizes tender as my BLI Mike, it not loud due to the sizes of the tender. So you may be pushing the sound system more than you think.

Hey Ken,

I won't deny that it's not possible.  However, the original V2.0 Loksound chuff is considerably louder than the newer V3.5 and I have yet to have a problem with the other Trix Mike with the older decoder in it. Confused

I would try Ulrich Models, when I added sound to my PCM Big Boy I bought the speakers from them. Steve seems to know what he is talking about. Great customer services as well!

Well, since Bruce's inventory @ Litchfield Station won't be drying up pretty soon, I'll definitely be checking out Ulrich.  Thanks for the suggestion and the link, Ken! CoolThumbs Up

Tom

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Posted by cacole on Monday, March 8, 2010 9:22 AM

You may be using the wrong impedance speaker.  According to ESU's web site their decoders use 100, 16, 32, or 8 Ohm speakers depending on the exact decoder type.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/accessories/loudspeaker/ 

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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 8, 2010 10:26 AM

Chuck,

It's definitely a 100 Ohm speaker.  That's the rating for both the V2.0 and V3.5 decoders.  I read that the new LokSound "Selector" are supposed to use lower 8 or 16(?) Ohm speakers.

Tom

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Posted by cudaken on Monday, March 8, 2010 1:13 PM

 Tom, Ulrich programs Loksound decoders as well. Steve may be able to down load the 2.0 sound file to the 3.5 decoder.

          Ken

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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 8, 2010 2:58 PM

cudaken
Steve may be able to down load the 2.0 sound file to the 3.5 decoder.

Ken,

I don't need (nor prefer) to do that because I still have the old V2.0 decoder.  And the V2.0 decoder has a few sound shortcomings that were rectified in V3.5 that I'd like to keep - if possible - with the newer decoder.  I was merely commenting that the older version was louder and that I had never experienced a blown speaker with it.

UPDATE: I turned the layout on after lunch today.  For a brief time, the background or ambient sound surprisingly powered up on the Trix Mike like normal.  However, once I engaged the locomotive, the chuff sound quickly deteriorated and - within a few seconds - disappeared altogether again.  Pressing F8 made no difference at all after that.  And the motor portion of the decoder is unaffected.

Could this particular decoder just have a faulty sound portion to the board that causes it to fry speakers? When I switched out the old speaker for the new speaker back in June, everything has worked just fine since then up till last night.

I may still have a spare 100 Ohm speaker to try out.  I could also try bouncing this off Ulruch to get their recommendation.

The other option is to wait for the release of the new Loksound "Select" decoders.  They do have two primer mover sounds (#1 Mikado & #3 2-8-2) for their 73414 sound installation package.  However, I'd like to hear that before plunking down anymore money for another decoder.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions...

Tom

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Posted by cudaken on Monday, March 8, 2010 5:48 PM

tstage
UPDATE: I turned the layout on after lunch today.  For a brief time, the background or ambient sound surprisingly powered up on the Trix Mike like normal.  However, once I engaged the locomotive, the chuff sound quickly deteriorated and - within a few seconds - disappeared altogether again.

 Sound more like a decoder problem than a speaker problem. Onces you blow a speaker coil, the speaker is normally dead. I did have a tweeter that would work for a short time then stop. Coil wire was burnt through, but touched the other side of the wire. Get the meter out and test the speaker would be the first step.

           Ken

 

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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 8, 2010 11:22 PM

Thanks, Ken.  I just sent the following e-mail to Ulrich Models:

Dear Ulrich,
 
A friend from the MR forum has recommended me to you about a particular issue I'm experiencing with a Loksound V 3.5 decoder and speaker.
 
About a year or so ago I updated the older V2.0 decoder in my Trix 2-8-2 Mike for the newer V3.5 decoder.  The chuff on the V3.5 is definitely quieter than the older V2.0 but that's not the issue.  After a couple of months of operation, the 100 Ohm speaker began to crackle badly whenever the chuff, whistle or bell were engaged.  Thinking that the speaker was somehow shot, I replaced it with another 100 Ohm speaker back in June and that took care of the problem.  The motor portion of decoder was never affected.
 
Moving us up to March 7th, I was operating my Mike last night when the replacement speaker began to crackle.  (Up to this point it had been working just fine.)  After powering up the layout, I pressed F8 and the ambient or background noises fired up, as you would expect them to.  However, when I engaged the chuff, the speaker began crackling slightly, although not as badly as with the first speaker.
 
Afte a couple of laps around the layout running it with the chuff, the sound started getting slightly worse.  I tried engaging the bell and whistle.  Not surprising, they also crackled.  However, after the 3rd of so blast of the whistle, the speaker completely gave up the ghost so that no sound came from it at all.  Zilch, zippo, nada, none.
 
Today, I fired up the Trix Mike again - just to run it around the layout.  Surprisingly, the ambient noise came on like nothing was wrong.  I thought to myself, "Okay.  Let me test the chuff, bell and whistle again."  The same thing happened; this time though the chuff only lasted for a couple of seconds before it went completely silent.
 
My question for you is: Have you run across any similar issues like this with other Loksound decoders?  I have one other Loksound V3.5 decoder in a PCM F3 A-B unit and another Trix Mike with the older V2.0 in it.  Neither one has ever given me any problems at all.  Could the sound portion on the board of this particular Loksound decoder be overdriving the speaker?  As previously mentioned, the motor portion of the decoder has always worked splendidly.
 
Any recommendations, ideas or things to try and probe are welcome.  It just doesn't make sense to me: Why would a speaker work fine for 8 months, presumably go "plbbst" and stop working altogether, then begin working again the next day for a short period of time before dying.  I have NOT tried a factory reset yet to see if that rectifies the problem.   I believe I did that with the first speaker and it made no difference whatsoever.
 
I am going to go ahead and send this e-mail to you then go downstairs and reset the decoder.  If there are any changes, I'll drop you another e-mail.  If you don't hear from me then you can assume that the factory reset made no difference at all.
 
I do thank you for your time and help with this.  Any suggestions are appreciated.
 
Most sincerely,
 
I'll keep you all posted where things go from here.  Thanks again everyone for your insight and ideas.
 
Tom

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, March 9, 2010 1:31 AM

Well, Ken - I had to wait an entire 18 min. and 37 sec. for Steve to reply back to me.  (I was only going to give him a total of 20 minutes before looking for someone else. Clown LOL!)  Anyhow, here's what Steve wrote back:

Well Tom,

This is a bit of a strange one. I have not encountered this before though anything is possible with electronic circuits.  I have also never heard of a Loksound speaker failing much less two of them.  The audio power of the the 3.5 decoder is not sufficient to fry the 1" speaker. You need to verify that the speaker is not bad to go further.  I can send you another speaker and you can try it. Send the old one to me and let me test it. No charge for this. Then depending on the results, we can replace the decoder or not. The decoder can be replaced under warranty. I will send it back to ESU if it is bad.

The last thing you probably want to consider is another decoder swap. However, just as an FYI. Take a look at this.

QSI Revolution in TRIX Big Boy

Link to YouTube Video

Steve


I've already replied back to Steve and performed the factory reset.  Everything reset as expected: Lights and motor work fine...but no sound*.

[*Background: I did have sound again briefly before performing the decoder reset this evening.  I fired up the Trix Mike again and the ambient or background noise came on.  Instead of moving the locomotive, I pressed F1 and engaged the bell.  The bell started out fine for a ~5 seconds...then the sound decayed for another ~5 seconds before returning again to normal.  I probably let the bell ring for another ~10-15 seconds before turning it off.  I then pressed F2 to engage the whistle.  The whistle only lasted one blast then the sound completely conked out altogether.  Light and motor function remained unchanged.]

I also checked and found out that I do have (2) brand new 100 Ohm speakers here at home that I can swap out for the troublesome speaker.  However, I think it would be a wise idea to test the current onboard speaker to find out if it really is the problem or not.  Gut feeling is leaning towards a bad decoder.

I'll continue to keep you all posted on this.  Ken, thanks again for recommending Steve.  I'm impressed already. SmileThumbs Up

Tom

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Posted by locoworks on Tuesday, March 9, 2010 2:13 AM

i'd be looking at a bad decoder too, perhaps with a bad joint that gives a high resistance that gets 'hot' after a few minutes??  see how hot the actual decoder gets during operation and see if the sound goes as heat arrives??

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Posted by cudaken on Tuesday, March 9, 2010 6:16 AM

 Tom, you are more than welcome. Pretty much the same story I had with sending free parts.

 Far as the Big Boy with the QSI Revolution, not impressed. But it maybe the speaker in the Trix. My PCM Big Boy has two speakers and speaker enclosures that are pretty good sizes. They would not fit in a Heavy Mike. If you remember Terry from Texas gave me his Loksound 3.5 from his Allegheny because it sounded bad. He all so sent the speaker, speaker had a very short throw.

 If you went with the QSI, you would have more types of speakers to choose from.

 Glad I was of some help, Ken

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Posted by tstage on Tuesday, March 9, 2010 11:17 PM

UPDATE: Well, I tested the old 100 Ohm speaker with a digital multimeter this evening.  I also tested a new one, as a comparison.

The new speaker read 93.5 - 94.0 Ohms.  (I'm assuming that there are ohm tolerance ranges with speakers?)  The old speaker, however, read "OL" (open circuit).  So, it appears that the Loksound decoder is faulty and is frying the speakers; albeit slowly.

Steve @ Ulrich Models has offered to exchange a new V3.5 decoder for my current one.  He said that the decoder "can be replaced under warranty" and that he can send it back if it's bad.  If Steve's willing to do that, even though I bought it from another vendor, he's got my business.  That's going above and beyond. Shock

Tom

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Posted by cudaken on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:57 AM

 Again Tom, same thing he did for me. He down loaded the Big Boy sound file to Terry's old decoder for free, then sent it back. I could not get the lights to work. Called Steve for help, tried what he said to no avail. So he sent me another while I still had the old one!

              Ken

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Posted by Harley-Davidson on Friday, March 12, 2010 10:34 AM

I had the same problem in a PCM F3, (locksound V3.5 and 3 speakers), and twice as you. And them I discovered the problem: it was in the decoder itself, a loose soldering. I resoldered it, and problem fixed!!!. Get a great magnifying glasss.

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Posted by tstage on Friday, March 12, 2010 11:05 AM

I'm going to take up Steve's offer and exchange my current Loksound decoder for another Loksound V3.5.  And, since the speaker doesn't work, I think I'll probably include that also along with the decoder, when I send it in.  (For any edification it might be to Steve.)

When I removed the decoder from the tender, I did inspect it visually through the plastic wrap that encases the decoder.  Unless it's a bad component, I didn't see anything glaringly wrong.

Tom

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