carl1New at this. i have a reverse loop with a turn out going off. How do I wire i with a reverse module? Thanks
More information is going to be needed. Does the turnout you refer to go to just an isolated spur (siding), or does it connect to another part of the railroad outside of the reverse loop?
If it's just a simple loop, insulate both rails at each end of the loop (4 insulated joiners total). Connect 1 or more sets of feeders to the isolated loop tracks, and connect these all tot he OUTPUT of the auto reverser unit. Connect to input of the autoreverse unit to the DCC power bus that feeds the rest of the railroad.
If it's more than just a simple loop between two legs of a turnout, what gets insulated may vary depending on the track configuration. A diagram would be most helpful in this case.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
maxmancarl1New at this. i have a reverse loop with a turn out going off. How do I wire i with a reverse module? Thanks More information is going to be needed. Does the turnout you refer to go to just an isolated spur (siding), or does it connect to another part of the railroad outside of the reverse loop?
In addition to what has already been mentioned, insulate both rails just after the turnout or just before the track joins the other part of the layout. All tracks connected to a loop have to be isolated from the rest of the layout.
Jay
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carl1New at this.
Just because you're new at this, I have to ask. Are you running DCC? Auto-reverse modules only work for DCC, not DC.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley carl1New at this. Just because you're new at this, I have to ask. Are you running DCC? Auto-reverse modules only work for DCC, not DC.
I have to disagree with you on this. You told me the same thing 2 years ago and then I discovered the Circuitron AR-1 800-5400 it been working beautifully ever since. Now maybe I’m not understanding the term “module”, but there is autoreverse for DC.
SleeperN06 MisterBeasley carl1New at this. Just because you're new at this, I have to ask. Are you running DCC? Auto-reverse modules only work for DCC, not DC. I have to disagree with you on this. You told me the same thing 2 years ago and then I discovered the Circuitron AR-1 800-5400 it been working beautifully ever since. Now maybe I’m not understanding the term “module”, but there is autoreverse for DC.
Looking at the Circuitron catalog, you are correct that the AR-1 will work for a DC railroad. The AR-1 requires the installation of optical sensors to trigger the circuitry on the reversing board. Since it does not connect directly to the track, it can be used on any railroad, DC or DCC. It requires a separate power supply.
Mr.Beasley's use of the term module refers to the circuit boards used on DCC system which connect directly to the track, and are powered through the track power. These modules work by detecting a track short and switching polarity quicker than the locomotive or track power supply can recognize the short and respond. No external sensors are required. It will work only with DCC.
I'll leave the virtues of each system to be discussed by others.
Yes, I was referring to the auto-reverse modules made by Digitrax, Tony's Trains and others, which sense the polarity mismatch of the reversing section and automatically do the flip when a metal wheel crosses the gap.
Actually, I wasn't aware of the Circuitron system. Thanks for the information update.
I just wanted to add that the Digitrax AR1 Auto Reversing Controller also works on DC and does not use optic switching. It is completely independent of the digital network so it can work on DC and DCC.
I use this one myself (AR-1) and I really don't think it can be beat for simplicity and ease of setup/installation. I had some try to talk me into different units but after researching everything went this route as it fit what I wanted. First it was inexpensive compared to others, second it was simple to install and setup, and third it worked perfectly. It only took me three adjustments to get it right.
SleeperN06It is completely independent of the digital network so it can work on DC and DCC.
The Digitrax instructions say that the AR-1 "runs off track power". http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/ar1.pdf
If this is the case, how can it be independent of the digital network? Or have you found some other instruction? Just asking.
maxman SleeperN06It is completely independent of the digital network so it can work on DC and DCC. The Digitrax instructions say that the AR-1 "runs off track power". http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/ar1.pdf If this is the case, how can it be independent of the digital network? Or have you found some other instruction? Just asking.
Isn’t track power a DC voltage? What I mean by independent of the digital network is that it does not operate by any digital pulses or signals. It gets its power from the track to power its own sensing and switching. It does not need a DCC throttle to tell it what to do.
The only concern is that in a DC track the voltage is variable and at some point when the DC throttle is low enough the AR1 will stop working, but if you are powering a loco through the turnout then there should be enough power to operate. Its only when the loco is stopped or running very slow, that there will be a problem. I don’t know what the cutoff voltage is.
Oh! One other point, it’s not even addressable.
I don't think the AR-1 and other reversers designed for DCC will be satisfactory for DC, except under very limited circumstances. These units work by controlling the polarity of the signal. In DC, polarity is simply the sign of the voltage, positive or negative. In DCC, it's the direction of the square wave which the DCC signal modulates to provide signals to the locomotives.
In DC, the polarity controls the direction of the locomotives, plain and simple. Positive sends the engines one way, and negative sends them the other way. The polarity of a DCC signal does NOT control locomotive direction. Instead, that's determined by the signal from the controller. So, if you flip the polarity of the DCC signal while an engine is in motion, nothing happens. It keeps going in the same direction. On a DC system, though, flipping the polarity will reverse the engine.
Typical wiring of a DCC reverser sends the output of the reverser to the reversing loop. When the locomotive crosses the insulated boundry, the reverser matches the polarity of the loop to the polarity of the main line. At the other end of the loop, the reverser again matches the polarity, which, in the simple case, just means flipping the polarity once. This has no effect on locomotive direction, so the engine moves smoothly across both loop ends and returns to the main in the opposite direction.
If you do this in DC, though, it won't work. The reverser will do its job at the first boundry, but when it gets to the far end, it will again flip the polarity. This will cause the locomotive to reverse rather than continue back on to the main.
You could fake the system out by wiring the output of the auto-reverser to the main line. This would require you to always go through the loop the same way, because the loop direction would now be fixed. It would also limit the current on your main line to the maximum rating of the reverser, typically 2 amps or so. Yes, in a way it could be said to "work," but it's probably not the solution you're looking for.
Well I’m not debating the benefits of a DCC system, of course that’s the best way to go. And if the prices ever become more affordable for everyone than maybe there will no longer be 'DC only'. I’m talking about taking a simple DC locomotive which doesn’t care about modulation or square waves. It just goes in the direction of polarity, nothing more.
And of course the power on the main is going to have to reverse polarity as well whether it is from a toggle switch, another AR1or even a latching relay. You’re going to need more than one AR1 depending on the layout. It doesn’t matter what you use in DC, the fact is that when the loco come out of the reverse loop the main line has to be changed. I’m using the Circuitron AR-1. It uses optical sensors and can control two reverse loops, but it also must have a way to change polarity on the main. There’s nothing saying you can’t have two or even 10 AR1s.
Before DCC, it was all about the wiring and "tricking the system". That’s why people hate DC and reverse loops. They just could not understand the complicity of the wiring. There are books published with all sorts of ways to trick DC. I’ve been able to get it to work on my layout and it’s true that there has been some head scratching, but I managed to get it working. I have more time than money.
I’m not saying this is the way to go verses DCC and I will eventually go to DCC myself. All I’m saying is that it can work and is an alternative for those who don’t have DCC. You just have to plan ahead a little.
SleeperN06Isn’t track power a DC voltage?
I don't know. Are you talking a DC railroad? Then the answer is yes. If you are talking a DCC railroad, the only voltage I'm able to read across the tracks is (some form of) AC.
Taking my own advice, I called Digitrax this morning and asked them if the AR-1 would work on a DC railroad. If I understood the gentleman correctly, the AR-1 will work to reverse polarity on a DC powered railroad, until you put a locomotive on the tracks. When you put a DC powered loco on the tracks, and the polarity reverses, then the locomotive will want to run in the other direction.
So, in my opinion anyway, the final answer is that it won't work in any practical sense.
Obviously, if you have found a way to make it work, I can't argue with success. But I think that there are a few among us that would be interested in how you have it wired.
Yes this is true, if you don’t have the track properly blocked in isolated sections so that you can keep it moving along in the direction you want and make the necessary provisions to pass it along to the next section, it will not work. Look at the examples in the Circuitron Catalog. Now I already know that you’re going to say, that the AR-1 is different than the AR1 because the AR-1 uses optical sensors, but it doesn’t matter how the device decides to switch polarity, weather it is optical or whatever. You CAN NOT simply connect any of them up without the rest of the necessary provisions or it will just go back and forth or who knows what.
Oh I don’t know how to make it any clearer, but I am not talking about anything but Direct Current systems. You know the ones before DCC. I just want to make it clear that autoreverse is NOT ONLY for Digital Control systems. There has been autoreverse way before DCC. You just need to know how to hook it up and there are books with other methods. I just know about these methods.
Most of the younger DCC people that I talk to are so wrapped up in their DCC world that they refuse to believe that there was model railroading before DCC.
Anyway I know it works and others are using the same method. As long as others are aware that there are other ways of doing it and keep an open mind, this is all that I got to say about it.
This is what I'm using for my reverse loops. The only real difference is that I added turnout control to automate it. It does not show the second AR-1 that I’m using for the main line.
Oh, I just wanted to add that I chose the Circuiton AR-1 because I could use one AR-1 for both reverse loops or I would need two Digitrax AR1to complete the operation.