Digitrax programming

[Graffen]

 Hi all, I just have to ask why the decoder manual for Digitrax mobile decoders is so hard to understand.

I have been using DCC for more than 10 years and have mostly used Lenz, ESU and other European decoders. The last few years I have used Soundtraxx and NCE as well. I do have a few Digitrax also that I have only made basic programming on because of the forementioned instructions.

I am used to program my decoders using decimal inputs and if necessary by using the Bit-system.

The bit-system is easy to use because I find it logical as Bit 0,1,2,4,5,6 and 7 corresponds to the values 1,2,4,16,32,64 and 128, and all CV´s can be described and programmed in an easy way.

So why do digitrax use Hexadecimal? I don´t think I am slow in the head but reading the Digitrax instructions makes me second-think myself........

So if anyone have some manuals for Digitrax using either decimals or Bits, please let me know.

[selector]

This doesn't address your question, sorry, but maybe this applet will help you in the meantime?

http://www.mathsisfun.com/binary-decimal-hexadecimal-converter.html

-Crandell

[Graffen]

Thanks for the link Selector, but as you say, it doesn´t really help. It´s not fun to program when you have to convert almost everything. I have a interface that I use to program most of my "difficult" locos but that is to no use here as it wants decimal or bit inputs......

Is the Hexadecimal system something that is linked to the non-metric units?

[rrinker]

Hexidecimal is what makes sense in the 8 bit computer world. 8 bits is 2 hex digits. This is why other (non Lenz) systems use up to 127 as a short address. CV1 has 7 usable bits for the address value, which translates into a maximum value of 127.

It has nothign to do with metric/non metric - it is simple straightforward math. You seem ok working in binary, hex is just the same.

Decimal numbers are base 10 - so we have a ones place, a tens place, a hundreds place, and so on.

Hexidecimal is base 16, so you have ones, 16's, 256's, etc. It just so happens that a two hex 'digit' corresponds to 8 bits, or a byte. Or a single hex digit corresponds 4 bits. So when it says to set bit 6 and bit 2 to turn on a feature, write it out: 0100 0010  You can add up the 0x128 + 1 c 64 + 0x 32 + 0x 16 + 0 x 4 + 1 x 2 + 0 x 1 if you want, or look at each half independently and see it as 42 hex.

Like I said int he other thread, most Digitrax decoders have far more lighting effect options than most of the European decoders - mainly to provide all the options for US prototype operation (see Southern Pacific, or remember a Mars light is NOT the same as a Gyralight - and the decoder effects TRULZY look different). As such, since there are way more than 99 possible options, you can't just structure a table of values in decimal. If there WERE less than 99 options, you could list is as "set the first digit to 3, second digit to 7" but because there are more than that you need to split up up somehow - hex covers the maximum possible options for one CV (8 bits, 256 possible values) and allows you to break it up neatly liek Digitrax did - one digit is the effect, the other digit is the modifier (speed/direction dependence, dependent on another function, etc.). To list all that in a decimal 'tab;e' would be 256 lines - and then I KNOW someone complain they couldn't find the value for "Mars light, on in forward only" because that text would be buried in with 254 other entries that would either not be in numeric order or not be in alphabetical order.

I don't know, it all makes perfect sense to me. I don't know why people are so afraid of math.

                              --Randy

[Graffen]

Thanks for the reply. I still wonder why ordinary bit schemes are to be too long to read? My Lenz decoders have just as many different light configurations without using Hex.

I am not afraid of math, it is just so more complicated this hex things compared to the math I used to practice at work.

To see really good instructions, look at both ESU and Soundtraxx! I have NO problem there, and we are talking sound decoders here.

See this link to the Loksound 3.5 manual:

Loksound

[jamnest]

I have owned and operated a Digitrax system for over ten years.  I gave up punching in numbers a long time ago I have both an MS100 and a PR3 and use Decoder Pro exclusively to program decoders.  I use both Digitrax and NEC decoders and have no problems using Decoder Pro.

If you don't have a Digitrax system, you can use the PR3 and Decoder Pro as a stand alone programer.

[justinjhnsn3]

jamnest

I have owned and operated a Digitrax system for over ten years.  I gave up punching in numbers a long time ago I have both an MS100 and a PR3 and use Decoder Pro exclusively to program decoders.  I use both Digitrax and NEC decoders and have no problems using Decoder Pro.

If you don't have a Digitrax system, you can use the PR3 and Decoder Pro as a stand alone programer.

I just started doing the same. Decoder Pro also programs lenz decoders with no problem. I will be using the pr3 and decoder Pro for all future programing needs.

[Stevert]

Graffen

So why do digitrax use Hexadecimal?

As has been stated in just about every thread on this topic, very early Digitrax throttles (the DT100, to be exact) required hex for programming.  Since a lot of folks still use DT100's with their current systems, Digitrax keeps the hex references, along with the decimal values, in their manuals for backwards compatibility. 

None of their other throttles since the DT100 have required the use of hex, so unless you're using a DT100 you can ignore the hex values and just use the also-provided decimal values.

  It tells you this, in bold print, right on the top of page 27 of their Decoder Manual. 

Graffen

So if anyone have some manuals for Digitrax using either decimals or Bits, please let me know.

All the Digitrax manuals I've ever seen give the values in both hex and decimal, so again, you can ignore the hex and reference only the decimal values.  And for those instances where only the hex is provided, if there even are any such instances, the table B2 in the back of the Decoder Manual shows the hex/decimal value conversions.  Or, you can simply use the calculator that comes with your computer.

  Honestly, I think people dig this up just to complain...  

  Steve

[Graffen]

No I didn´t dig it up just to complain! I seriously think that the instructions in their manuals are inferior compared to others (Soundtraxx, ESU and others).

I have tried to program the FX3 functions but the instructions aren´t exactly "crystal" if you get it.

[selector]

I can only speak for myself, but I have no background in the various base notations, at least not since Grade 9-11 many seasons ago.  So, I understand a good chunk of Graffen's frustration...except that between my DT400 manual and the DB150 manual, plus Randy's forebearance five years ago when he patiently coached me through figuring out the bit computations for addresses, I have managed to muddle through just fine.

Thanks, again, Randy, for your patience with those of us who can't seem to process this way of thinking.

-Crandell

[rrinker]

davidmbedard

David B

Hey that's a different one. One dead horse per user, please.

               --Randy

[Graffen]

davidmbedard

David B

 

What is dead? The issue of Digitrax being questioned, or the general helpfulness?

I have always regarded your inputs David, but if this is what you can tell me about Digitrax programming here, I  put this discussion to rest.

Obviously if you don´t own some special hardware, you aren´t supposed to own these decoders. I have now decided to use all other makes, EXCEPT Digitrax.

I will not ask these questions again.

[rrinker]

Graffen

No I didn´t dig it up just to complain! I seriously think that the instructions in their manuals are inferior compared to others (Soundtraxx, ESU and others).

I have tried to program the FX3 functions but the instructions aren´t exactly "crystal" if you get it.

 Actually they are - the problem, if I have any complaint, is that the tables are backwards. They should list Table IVc BEFORE IVb.

 The real plain English is this: Look in Table IVc and decide when you want the desired function to be on. Write down the digit corresponding to the choice. Then look in Table IVb and pick what function it is you want (strobe, mars, etc) and write that digit next to the first one. Go to the back of the manual and look up the decimal number equivalent. There is the value you program int he function CV to generate the desired effect.

 Or just use DecoderPro and forget hex, decimal, tables, manual, etc. for ALL decoders.

                                                      --Randy

[rrinker]

Stevert

Graffen

So why do digitrax use Hexadecimal?

As has been stated in just about every thread on this topic, very early Digitrax throttles (the DT100, to be exact) required hex for programming.  Since a lot of folks still use DT100's with their current systems, Digitrax keeps the hex references, along with the decimal values, in their manuals for backwards compatibility. 

None of their other throttles since the DT100 have required the use of hex, so unless you're using a DT100 you can ignore the hex values and just use the also-provided decimal values.

  It tells you this, in bold print, right on the top of page 27 of their Decoder Manual. 

 Sort of - the DT100 'required' hex because fromt he beginnign Digitrax chose to make full use of each CV. A CV is 8 bits - this allows values 0-255. However, the early DCC systems had only 2 digits int he display. This limited them to 0-99. So Digitrax came up witht he idea of using hex, since 2 HEX digits allows 0-255. See also why Lenz stops short addresses at 99 and the others go to 127. Why does the Digitrax manual still list hex? because in some cases it's easier, and also for peopel with still perfectly usable DT100 throttles can program. Why does Lenz limit various CVs to 0-99, and also limit their function choices to the same? So people with old Lenz systems with the 2 digit displays can still access all the features of the decoder.

 Functions are the big one, Digitrax offers 0-7, plus A, B, E, and F as valid hex digits for the function modifier - when it is on. That's 11 options, 2 more than Lenz can do without either resorting to hex or a VERY awkward decimal table. Likewise, they have 0-B as valid hex digits for the actual function itself - 11 different functions. 121 total poccible functions, with the unused digits reserved for possible future new ones. Again, 22 lines in two tables, or 121 lines in one monster table?

 Or - again - decoder pro and NONE of this for ANY brand decoder.

                                  --Randy

[Phoebe Vet]

Every Digitrax decoder manual I have lists both decimal and hex.

Use whichever one lights your fire.  I use Decoder Pro and PR3

[locoworks]

i think digitrax had to use hex in the manuals because the DT100 only had 2 digits in the display assigned for displaying certain CV's,   even NOW, the digitrax units actually work in hex inside, it is just that the DT400's and i think the 300's too have/had a display that could show the hex number as a decimal which makes a bit more sense to a world where everything else in daily public use is in decimal.    it is a bit like comparing DOS with windows,  early windows i believe used the window display tabs to run a preset dos command, the computer was still using DOS, but displaying it in a visual form with plain english. and i suppose PC's all run a binary system anyway??

[Silver Pilot]

rrinker

Graffen

No I didn´t dig it up just to complain! I seriously think that the instructions in their manuals are inferior compared to others (Soundtraxx, ESU and others).

I have tried to program the FX3 functions but the instructions aren´t exactly "crystal" if you get it.

 Actually they are - the problem, if I have any complaint, is that the tables are backwards. They should list Table IVc BEFORE IVb.

 The real plain English is this: Look in Table IVc and decide when you want the desired function to be on. Write down the digit corresponding to the choice. Then look in Table IVb and pick what function it is you want (strobe, mars, etc) and write that digit next to the first one. Go to the back of the manual and look up the decimal number equivalent. There is the value you program int he function CV to generate the desired effect.

 Or just use DecoderPro and forget hex, decimal, tables, manual, etc. for ALL decoders.

                                                      --Randy

Where are those tables in the manual that comes with the decoder?  They're not in this manual.

http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/dh163p.pdf

Speaking of beating the deadhorse - Why is it that anytime someone has a question about programming a Digitrax decoder the response is always "go out and buy this additional piece of hardware (PR3) and power supply for it even though the person doesn't own a Digitrax system.  Why buy a Digitrax decoder if you need additonal hardware to make the programming of it something a person can do understand without a needing additonal tables, charts and a calculator?

[mfm37]

Silver Pilot

Where are those tables in the manual that comes with the decoder?  They're not in this manual.

http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/dh163p.pdf

 

They are not on the card but from the card:

Installation Information
See the Digitrax Decoder Manual for complete decoder test procedures, installation instructions, programming and technical information. Digitrax manuals and instructions are updated periodically. Please visit www.digitrax.com for the latest versions, technical updates and additional locomotive-specific installation instructions.

 

Silver Pilot

Speaking of beating the deadhorse - Why is it that anytime someone has a question about programming a Digitrax decoder the response is always "go out and buy this additional piece of hardware (PR3) and power supply for it even though the person doesn't own a Digitrax system.  Why buy a Digitrax decoder if you need additonal hardware to make the programming of it something a person can do understand without a needing additonal tables, charts and a calculator?

 

I agree wholeheartedly. While Decoder pro certainly make programming simpler, "Just use DecoderPro" won't get the problem solved until it's downloaded and installed plus a computer interface is acquired ( from somewhere?) and connected between the DCC system and a computer that may or may not be located anywhere near the train room.

 Martin Myers

 

[Phoebe Vet]

Silver Pilot

Speaking of beating the deadhorse - Why is it that anytime someone has a question about programming a Digitrax decoder the response is always "go out and buy this additional piece of hardware (PR3) and power supply for it even though the person doesn't own a Digitrax system.  Why buy a Digitrax decoder if you need additonal hardware to make the programming of it something a person can do understand without a needing additonal tables, charts and a calculator?

Perhaps it's because when you ask a Digitrax question you are most likely to get answers from Digitrax users.  You started out by complaining that Digitrax uses only Hex instead of Decimal like everyone else.  If you read carefully you will notice that the replies all pointed out that the Decimal numbers are there if you don't like hex simply ignore the hex numbers.  The rest are just helpful suggestions.  Decoder Pro is not unique to Digitrax,  It works with any DCC system that has a computer interface.  If you buy the Digitrax PR3, your don't need to connect it to anything but your computer and a piece of track.  It doesn't need to connect to your layout, so it doesn't need to be in the train room.  It works with any brand of decoder for motor and light control, and can load sound schemes in Digitrax decoders.  It is not REQUIRED, but it is very helpful.  If you prefer to peek and poke CVs with your throttle, by all means do so.  But your complaint that Digitrax manuals do not have decimal information is in error.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Having all of the flexibility and capability that DCC provides does come with a cost. Somehow, the information needed to program the decoders has to be presented, and it isn't always going to be easy! I find a Hex description of a CV to be really useful. But, I'm an engineer, and I use Hex all the time. So for me, it's a natural and concise way to describe the meaning of the bits within a CV, and the value of the CV when the bits are put together. If one is going to figure out the CV values manually, it really is a much "better" method than working with decimal number. To fully describe every possible state in an eight bit CV (256 different states) using decimal numbers would be completely incomprehensible. Thinking of it in Hex makes it concise and clear. You just describe the eight bits, and you are done. But, as has been said over and over, JMRI can do the work for you, and you don't need to buy anything.

[Graffen]

Thanks David, that was an answer that I could actually put to use. I didn´t know that the JMRI had a loconet simulator. I will install it now and see if it works out OK.

By the way, as I said earlier, I use a Roco DCC system and as the Lenz system it uses XPressNet and not LocoNet. So many of the devices that is mentioned doesn´t work as they cant communicate.

Thanks.

[Graffen]

Vail and Southwestern RR

Having all of the flexibility and capability that DCC provides does come with a cost. Somehow, the information needed to program the decoders has to be presented, and it isn't always going to be easy! I find a Hex description of a CV to be really useful. But, I'm an engineer, and I use Hex all the time. So for me, it's a natural and concise way to describe the meaning of the bits within a CV, and the value of the CV when the bits are put together. If one is going to figure out the CV values manually, it really is a much "better" method than working with decimal number. To fully describe every possible state in an eight bit CV (256 different states) using decimal numbers would be completely incomprehensible. Thinking of it in Hex makes it concise and clear. You just describe the eight bits, and you are done. But, as has been said over and over, JMRI can do the work for you, and you don't need to buy anything.

 

I didn´t say that all should be described with decimals, as it could be described with the good old bit-system as used by Lenz for example. Considering that Lenz invented DCC, maybe the way they describe CV´s should be used more?

And one more thing, the instructions for the Digitrax decoders regarding mapping of special functions is only in Hex.

By the way. Where do all the "I use hex in my job" comes from? Are so many MR´s working with computer colors for the Web?

I asked a couple of my friends about Hex as they work with programming, and they said it was a long time ago (and talking about computers , that could be a year ago...) they used Hex as they now have some programs that takes care about that.

[Graffen]

I have tried it now, and I am getting the basics of it now. As for the Interface to the Roco system, I have a Rocomotion interface (used to automate traffic) but it has a special interface "code". I have to buy a Lenz central station and a LiUsb interface to program it through the layout, so I think I will use my Roco-programmer and just use the JMRI for the CV-values.

[Silver Pilot]

Phoebe Vet

Silver Pilot

Speaking of beating the deadhorse - Why is it that anytime someone has a question about programming a Digitrax decoder the response is always "go out and buy this additional piece of hardware (PR3) and power supply for it even though the person doesn't own a Digitrax system.  Why buy a Digitrax decoder if you need additonal hardware to make the programming of it something a person can do understand without a needing additonal tables, charts and a calculator?

Perhaps it's because when you ask a Digitrax question you are most likely to get answers from Digitrax users.  You started out by complaining that Digitrax uses only Hex instead of Decimal like everyone else.  If you read carefully you will notice that the replies all pointed out that the Decimal numbers are there if you don't like hex simply ignore the hex numbers.  The rest are just helpful suggestions.  Decoder Pro is not unique to Digitrax,  It works with any DCC system that has a computer interface.  If you buy the Digitrax PR3, your don't need to connect it to anything but your computer and a piece of track.  It doesn't need to connect to your layout, so it doesn't need to be in the train room.  It works with any brand of decoder for motor and light control, and can load sound schemes in Digitrax decoders.  It is not REQUIRED, but it is very helpful.  If you prefer to peek and poke CVs with your throttle, by all means do so.  But your complaint that Digitrax manuals do not have decimal information is in error.

Phoebe - Read the complete thread from the beginning.  PYHO - I didn't ask the question and didn't complain about decimal information being in error in the Digitrax manuals.

[Phoebe Vet]

I did read the entire thread.  My error was in getting confused about who made which post.

I apologize, it was Gaffen who made the claim that Digitrax uses hex instead of decimal.

[Graffen]

 ...wich they do in the FX instructions.....

[rrinker]

 And once again I guess I will be the 'contrarian'. I DO have a Locobuffer to connect my computer, and I actually have JMRI installed on 3 different computers. However, I do almost all my programmign withthe throttle. It's just faster for me. Address stuff is automatic (2/4 digit and CV29), unless you want to turn off DC conversion, which I do on my own locos but not for others unless they ask for it. The only lighting function programming I need for my 50's era locos is basic Rule 17 dimming. Programming is super easy on a DT400/402, just dial the CV number with one knob and the value with the other and hit enter. Continue as required. It's every bit as easy for adjusting start/mid/max in ops mode as using JMRI.

 There, I said it, I rarely use JMRI to program. My main use for the computer interface is signals/dispatching.

                                   --Randy

 

[CSX Robert]

Graffen

My Lenz decoders have just as many different light configurations without using Hex

Really? Here's the lighting effects for a Lenz Gold decoder -

On outputs A and B you have the following effect options:
No effect, mars light, gyra light, strobe, double strobe.

On outputs C you have the following:
No effect, flashing, flickering type 1, dimming with value from CV55.

On outputs D you have following:
No effect, flashing at same time as output C, flashing alternately to output C, flickering type 2, flickering type 3, dimming with value from CV56.

With Digitrax FX3 decoders, you get the following effect options on ALL outputs:
No effect, random flicker, mars light, flashing head light, strobe, double pulse strobe, rotary beacon, Gyralite, rule 17 dimming, FRED, right ditch light, left ditch light.

You also have multiple options for how each one operates, such as forward only, reverse only, non directional, only when F0 is also on, on only when speed = 0, on only when speed > 0, two types of ditch light logic, rule 17 dimming.

Graffen

I am not afraid of math, it is just so more complicated this hex things compared to the math I used to practice at work.

I honestly just don't see what is so complicated about Digitrax's lighting effects. What effect do you want for the light? Look up the corresponding number in the chart for lighting effects and that is your right hand digit. How do you want the effect to operate? Look up the corresponding number and that is your left hand digit. Look up the resulting two digit number in the hexadecimal to decimal chart in the back of the Digitrax Decoder Manual and program the decimal equivalent into the corresponding CV. You don't have to do any extra math, or any math at all, for that matter, and you really don't have to know anything about hexadecimal. If you don't like looking the hexadecimal number in the chart you can use a hexadecimal to decimal converter, which Windows' calculator is good for - make sure it is in Scientific view, click "Hex," enter the hexadecimal number, click "Dec," and there is your decimal number.

[selector]

I will admit to just using the DT400 as well.  It takes maybe three minutes from the time I set a new engine on the programming track, reach under the layout to flip the SPDT, power up, punch in address 03, make sure the engine responds (or I have a factory default restore to perform, adds 15 seconds), enter Paged Mode, do the address change, track goes dead, power up, set CV29 if the engine doesn't respond to either address, and then tinker with the usual five or six CV's needing adjustment for motion realism and individual sound reduction.

However, if I had a lot of CV manipulation to do with a lot of engines on a regular basis, I wouldn't hesitate to use JMRI, especially for records keeping.  These days, I programme a CV once a month.  Sometimes just 'cuz.

-Crandell

[CB&Q4-8-4Fanatic]

I would use Digitrax JMRI decoder programmer program that you could find directly on the digitrax website.