DCC for cognitively impaired

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CSX Robert

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Norbert

I forgot to mention layout is for O gauge. I think that eliminates the Command 2000. Sound, blinky lights and the rest is desirable.

It really eliminates any DCC system... 

It depends on if he is talking 3-rail or 2-rail. You can buy 2-rail O scale DCC equipped engines, but if he is talking 3-rail, then you are correct, he should probably not bother with DCC.

 

The scale O guys are pretty quick to distinguish themselves with the word scale instead of gauge so they don't get associated with the 3 rail crowd - although nowadays there are a lot of full scale 3 rail O items available.  Also, you don't get continuous running of 2 trains on a 4x7 in O scale.  Which is why I deduced 3 rail O.

Fred W

[CSX Robert]

fwright

Norbert

I forgot to mention layout is for O gauge. I think that eliminates the Command 2000. Sound, blinky lights and the rest is desirable.

It really eliminates any DCC system... 

It depends on if he is talking 3-rail or 2-rail. You can buy 2-rail O scale DCC equipped engines, but if he is talking 3-rail, then you are correct, he should probably not bother with DCC.

[fwright]

Norbert

I forgot to mention layout is for O gauge. I think that eliminates the Command 2000. Sound, blinky lights and the rest is desirable.

It really eliminates any DCC system.  In O gauge (which I agree is great for your brother), there are 2 proprietary command control systems - DCS from MTH and TMCC/Legacy from Lionel.  DCS is only available on MTH locomotives, but a DCS system will operate (to some extent) TMCC.  TMCC/Legacy will only operate DCS locomotives in conventional (AKA ye olde tranformer) mode, but TMCC is available on Atlas and other makes of locomotives besides Lionel.  I've never operated TMCC or DCS, but some of the folks on the Classic Toy Trains forum on this web site can go into DCS/TMCC/Legacy in more detail.

While O gauge can be set up to run on DCC, you lose all the built-in electronics of today's locomotives.  The existing bells, whistles, sounds, lights, etc., would have to be rewired to the DCC decoder.  And the decoder would need a 2 amp or higher motor current rating for most locomotives.  Finally, if the locomotive contains a universal motor instead of a can motor (older and some high end Lionel), a special DCC decoder with the capability to independently reverse the field winding polarity is needed.  All in all, DCC would be a more expensive and/or labor and knowledge intensive implementation than just going with TMCC.  Finally, most switches (Atlas, Gar-Graves, and Ross excepted) are grounded to the track which makes independent switch machine power (highly desirable) to be a real issue with Lionel, K-Line, and MTH switches and DCC.

You mention running 2 trains on a 4x7.  I assume they have independent track most of the time - otherwise it's going to be crash city.  Given mostly independent track routing, conventional block wiring using two postwar 1033 transformers ($40 or less each, reconditioned) or similar would be a reasonable solution at much less expense.  You wouldn't be using the block toggles except when the trains were intermingling their routes, which won't be often on that small a layout.  The nice thing about the 1033 or 1044 transformers is that they have a 11 volt variable tap as well as a 16 volt variable tap.  Using the 11 volt tap with newer engines allows you to limit the top speed to something that will normally stay on the track.  The other advantage of a transformer system is that you don't need to get TMCC- or DCS-equipped locomotives, which could save considerable $$.  Yet most conventional O gauge locomotives still have at least a horn or whistle and smoke.

I hope this works out for you, whatever path you choose.

Fred W

[rrinker]

 Since it's for O - does Lionel still make that simple to use controller that was co-developed by Neil Young? The point of the simple controller was to allow Neil's special-needs child to have funa nd operate trains such as Neil's huge layout. I beleive it was for TMCC, Lionel's command control system, and I think it allows controls of the bell and whistle as well as speed and direction, yet has no complicated buttons.

                            --Randy

 

[CSX Robert]

Allegheny2-6-6-6

...the only times my son runs trains I am with him if he has a hand throttle he usually spins the knob up to full tilt and des the same when we play with his Lionel O gage layout...

One nice thing about DCC in these situations is being able to program the top speed of a locomotive.

[Norbert]

Thanks for the tip. My brother is 63 and fortunately is not much into cranking the speed way up. Not that he won't do it on occasion. His main issues are that it is fairly easy to get things too complex. Fortunately when he is motivated he can learn more than what you would expect.

 Man, I just estimated the price of the Atlas track for this layout. It's hitting $800. I'm glad is group home is so cheap. (Yes, I have already peaked at the DCC and rolling stock prices. This is going to be expensive. And fun!)

[simon1966]

Given that your needs are for an O gauge layout I would think you should consider the command control systems that are more specific to O made by Lionel and MTH.  I would suggest posting a similar question over on the Classic Toy trains forum to see what advice you get there.

[Allegheny2-6-6-6]

 Being the parent of a special needs child who is seven I don't have to tell you how they like to push buttons yours and the one's on the throttle so Crandell brings up a great point. I don't have any suggestions right off the top of my head as the only times my son runs trains I am with him if he has a hand throttle he usually spins the knob up to full tilt and des the same when we play with his Lionel O gage layout. So limitations are a good thing in this application. I suggest contacting the guys up at Tony's Train Exchange and jsuttell them what you've told us. Not that you won't get good advice here but speaking from personal experience those guys are great and make the difficult stuff easy to understand.

[selector]

While this might be a moot point now, you can lock a/some? decoder(s) so that it won't accept any further modifications to any CV except for the one that unlocks it again.

-Crandell

[CSX Robert]

Well in that case, you probably don't want a Zephyr either. I don't have any experience with O scale, but my understanding is it is not unusual for a single O scale engine to draw more than one amp(anybody who knows more about O scale, if this is not correct please let me know), so the 2.5 amp limit of the Zephyr may not be enough. In this case, I would suggest going with a Digitrax Empire Builder and two UT4 throttles.

[Norbert]

I forgot to mention layout is for O gauge. I think that eliminates the Command 2000. Sound, blinky lights and the rest is desirable.

[CSX Robert]

I would agree that a Digitrax with a couple of UT4's or DC cabs hooked to the jump ports would be a very good solution. There are also several circutis posted on the web for use with the Jump ports that could connect with cables, so for very little money you could have two walk around throttles, if you would like.

The problem with using a Power Cab and one of NCE's engineer's throttles is you can only add one throttle to the Power Cab unless you upgrade it with a Smart Booster.

I'll also point out that if you can get a Command 2000 and a HandHeld Walkaround 2000 you could place the main unit under the layout and he would have contorl of two locos with the handheld controller. There is actually a Command 2000 with walkaround controller and power supply on ebay right now, though it is going for more than what I would pay for one(it's already over $80, makes me think about selling the one I have).

One more option if you can get a hold of a Comand 2000: place the Command 2000 under the layout and build a control panel to emulate the walkaround controller(it's a fairly simple circuit, two potentiometers, some buttons, diodes, resistors and LED's).

If you have any interest is using sound equipped engines, then the UT4's would be the best option out of these. To control functions on the jump ports you have to use the Zephyr's keypad, and the Command 2000 only gives you control over functions F0(headlight) and F1(usually the bell on sound equipped engines). The UT4's will control of F0 - F12.

[mfm37]

 Have a look at the Intellibox sytem by Uhlenbrock

DCC Train is a US dealer.

[Texas Zepher]

Norbert

The posts remind me that I need to make sure that he can't reprogram anything or get too "lost" punching buttons.

That would send me toward the Zephyr solution with either two UT4 throttles, or two regular DC power packs on the jumper throttle ports.  That way you could hide the main control unit leaving him with only the two throttles.

[Norbert]

 Thanks for all of the suggestions. The posts remind me that I need to make sure that he can't reprogram anything or get too "lost" punching buttons. After some practice he can use a remote control to operate a TV and he can kind of navigate his way around a fancy movie juke box I rigged up for him, but he gets stuck periodically and a bit frustrated at it.

 I'll research these a bit and I may be back with more questions.

 Again, Thanks

[Texas Zepher]

Norbert

I would prefer to have a separate throttle dedicated to each train plus a panel of switches to operate the turnouts, lights, etc. I want one control serving one function. I would like each throttle to be like a traditional non-DCC throttle.

Three ideas not in any order of recomendation:

 

1.  A Digitrax Zephyr and a normal DC power pack on one of the jumper throttle inputs.  OR two DC power packs on the two jumper throttle inputs.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php

2.  If you don't mind going way back to what is considered an "obsolete" system by today's standards - for my children I used an MRC Command-2000.  There are three throttle levers right there on the control unit perfectly easy for a child to understand.  You should be able to pick one of these up somewhere for $25 or so.
http://www.modelrectifier.com/catalog/item71.html
http://www.brettsterville.com/dcc.htm

3. CVP's  EasyDCC has two throttle knobs on the main unit.  Can't get much simpler than that.
http://www.cvpusa.com/easydcc_system_command_station.php

[Doc in CT]

Seems to me that a Digitrax Zephyr and UT-4 would be as simple as one can get in an inexpensive, reliable system.  The Zephyr remembers the loco address last used before being powered down.  The UT-4, as mentioned above, has "dials" for the loco address.

[WSOR 3801]

 I use Digitrax, and these throttles would probably be the hot setup for your needs.

http://digitrax.com/prd_ut4.php

Knob for speed, switch for direction control, and twist knobs to dial up the engine you want.  The other buttons run the functions (lights, sound, etc), no ability to program..  My second-grader son finds it easy to use.    

[tbdanny]

It strikes me that the Bachmann E-Z DCC system would be perfect for this - just a push-button to select the locomotive you want, and a large, kid-friendly throttle.  I'm not sure about adding extra throttles, though - I haven't used this system myself.

[retsignalmtr]

You may be better off by using DC with MRC dual or seperate controllers and simple Atlas switch controllers. DCC is not simple to learn and manipulating the controller improperly may create undesirable effects. Over the past few years my club has had as part time members, several adults who were developmentally disabled and lived in a group home together. When they came to a meeting they had to be helped to get their train equipment running on DC. They were not able to pick up on our DCC system with the Digitrax  DT 400 with all the small buttons.

[maxman]

Here is a link to an NCE 04P handset; http://www.ncedcc.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Cab_04p_4a08b1bca3017.jpg  This is probably one of the simplest handsets out there.  If you think this handset would work for you, you could get an NCE PowerCab system plus this additional 04P handset.  The PowerCab comes with the more complicated handset that you would need for programming, etc, but once you have the engines programmed you can run trains with the 04P.

[Norbert]

I'm looking to use DCC to simplify a 2 train O gauge layout for my brother using a dedicated throttle for each train. Any suggestions are appreciated.

My older brother loves trains and operates at a 1st-2nd grade level. I'm building him a simple 4x7 layout with lots of switches and two complete loops so that he can run two trains (see the last layout at: http://www.thortrains.net/marx/kdlay0a.html). His previous train was HO but he wants O and since it is tougher than HO it is probably the thing to do. I think that a non-DCC system would overwhelm him. Most DCC throttle/controllers look like they would overwhelm as well (or at least be hard to learn).

I would prefer to have a separate throttle dedicated to each train plus a panel of switches to operate the turnouts, lights, etc. I want one control serving one function. I would like each throttle to be like a traditional non-DCC throttle. So far I have not found such a throttle. Another option might be to use a PC and some type of USB game controllers, but that is not my first choice.

The main benefit I see for him in DCC is that he won't have to worry about figuring out which block each train is in as well as dealing with switching the block over to the correct circuit. He just needs to worry about the speed and direction of each train, the switch settings, and making sure that they don't crash too often.