Some of the PCM steamers had problems with tender connections breaking. I some cases the receptacle under the cab was pushed in and disappeared inside the works. In others, the male plug became dislodged from the wires...wires broke. I have read that BLI/PCM suggested that any new owners place a dab of contact cement or epoxy on the back of the male plug, with the idea being that you wanted to increase the contact/retentive structure for those thin wires.
This would require damming the lip of the plastic back with tape, orienting it so that the wires were rising vertically, and then pouring in a drop or two of epoxy, letting it set over the next few hours.
However, to me, while it might cure the retention problem, it would also mean an extended-rearward plug that would effectively make the wires want to run horizontally rearward toward the tender even more than they do currently. So, if you were to want to attempt this cure, I would remove the dam before more than an hour or two had passed and try to bend the uppermost portion of the epoxy to the 'down' side as the plug is inserted into the cab receptacle. You'll still get the retention, but you'll add a bonus of keeping the wire harness oriented downward positively.
-Crandell
I'm in a round robin group with some really great layouts, but no one has done any hostler/roundhouse specific operations (other than turning the locos on a table) so I'd like to emphasize these jobs on my own to give the guys n' gals something different to do.
If it's not appropriate to go on about all of that in this thread, (deviating from the connector/wiring subject) feel free to PM me? Thanks again to Doug as well.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Oh, don't worry. A real loco hostler in the engine facility will be busy enough without swapping tenders.
Figure that a hostler will be the one that will run the locos out to the train departure yard for outbounds and bring them in from incoming trains in the receiving yard. These locos need to be serviced, so running them to the coal pocket, sand tower, and water plug (and perhaps the ash pit) will be necessary on every inbound loco. Before going out again, these locos would be looked over at an inspection area, perhaps hosed off, perhaps a brake shoe changed, and were certainly oiled over all moving parts. The "engine hostler" would most likely be the one who decides what power goes on what train. Obviously, economics comes into play here, and you put the smallest, most effecient loco possible that can do the job. Don't put that 4-8-4 on that 6 car local, and don't put that 2-6-0 on the 35-car express.
Then you can add maintenance schedules. Each loco needs it's 30-day, 60-day, 90-day inspection in addition to the daily visual inspection. Locos should rotate in and out of the shop as needed. MR did a good article on this around 10 years ago from Bill Darnaby who has the Maumee RR layout (Oct. 93 or July 96? Something like that...). He outlined some loco card operation that is useful for anyone that wants to have an operating engine hostler position.Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Most larger steam engines, built after say 1920 or so had an auger to move the coal from the tender to the engines. Most latter engines did not hand fire. Add in that the way the water lines connected to the engine and all the other connections and that the Prototype had no standard conection on the draw bars (all steam engines where costum built) and you had a LOT of work to just disconect and reconect the same tender to the same engine. Add in that the same class of engine often had noticiable difference and it was not easy to swap tender among the same class. Add in the differences from class to class and you have an issue that basicly said it was not normal to change tenders out. Most engines would exist with the same tender from the day it was built to the day it was scraped. Some changed them (the C&O did this a bit) but it was only done on a rework basis. For instance the class needed biger tenders then they would be replaced. if latter the engine did not need the big tender then maybe it would be swapped out. But this would only happen on a few engines and only a few times durring the entire life of the engine.
So for the most part swaping out tenderrs was not something that was done all that offten on the prototype.
Add in that this would mean that somehow you would have to design all the engines to have a spot to connect a draw bar (couplers where not used on tenders) and this is something that I do not think could be done. For instance an old 2-8-0 would have a fire box above the driver while a 2-8-2 would have one below the level of the drivers but over the trailing truck and you would be giving up the look of the engine for something that was basicly not done.
Now that being said Bachmann makes several tenders that can be swapped out.
Doug M
Thanks Sheldon for the prototype info. This is something I've been trying to determine in books for some time. I started my "research" by trying to see if NYC did this with their short and PT tenders on any kind of regular basis or just went to the PTs when water plugs along the main started disappearing.
I have a steam era layout but it's 1946 so having them run a diesel for awhile, first, is a good idea. Thanks. I've been "blinded" by my steam era only concept, and see the practicality of your suggestion.
Capt. GrimekDerailing/rerailing is a CONSTANT with new Ops members always being trained and experiencing their lst few solo runs. It takes a long time to learn someone elses' layout if it's of a good size. It has little to do with how perfectly the owner/builder installed their track. So, mishandling of locos (unfortunately is part of beginner activity.
Maybe you need some cheap but good running diesels for those beginners to train on, then when they stop crashing and running through misaligned turnouts they can graduate to steam locomotives. Get some Bachmann FT's or Proto1000 F3's and let them crash them up until they learn the ropes.
As previously stated, I'm not involved with anything that would qualify as "beginner training" and frankly don't want to be.
As to your question/thoughts about tender swaps, I must again agree with Paul. From everything I have ever read in 40 years of modeling and prototype study, I have never heard of a railroad changing tenders for the reasons you suggest, or with any kind of frequency.
Changing tenders was to my knowledge, a semi major shop job which was only done when needed. Locos would get new tenders if the old one had problems, or if a modernization plan included increased capacity or a change in fuel, but such changes would not be made "willy-nilly" at the drop of a hat. And, prototype loco to tender connections were no more standardized then our models, so changes may require custom parts, fabrication and modlification of piping, mountings and appliances.
Sheldon
Hi Paul and all.
I'm reading through and considering and learning from your points and logic.
I was wondering if something along the lines of a "workable" Proto type connector (one that never breaks) would be viable using smaller "micro diameter" wires or fiber optic cable/infra-red-NO wires. Would something closer to scale and possibly something even more prototypical in appearance be possible?
I've seen locos drag their tenders by the wires and that doesn't seem to be a problem. It's when someone moves the loco without moving the tender at the same time or drops the tender a few inches suddenly that I've seen wires part or break from the plug. True these are mishandling situations but seeing this happen twice now, it started to occur to me that this is a less robust system than maybe it could be.
I considered taping the wires together on mine. Is there any maintenance reason to not bundle/tape them?
I'm building a small/medium sized layout with loco servicing yard being a large emphasis. I was under the impression that some Western roads switched out tenders/capacity depending on that train's direction of travel (distance from water plugs, etc.) and if assigned to a local or branchline temporarily or if they were assigned to a region where coal was cheaper than oil or vice versa. Were locos able to use both/either fuel alternately or was an oil burner always an oil burner? I've tried to find this info.in books but no luck.
I thought this might give the layout's yard crew/hostler/r.h. more to do before a train was sent out or when it returned. Is this not at all a reasonable or prototypical operation from time to time? Is it too far fetched?
Can someone post a close up pic or link to a diagram that shoes the Proto brand and Kato's (N)?
Is something along the lines of the Greenaway product possible with the plug(s) contained?
There must be at least some minimal interest in a "different" connection/system or other ideas and products (Proto/Kato, etc.) wouldn't be marketed and find their fans. I've read some very favorable user reviews online about Proto's so some people like them. Maybe theirs didn't break? Sorry I don't recall what forum I read those on it's been a couple of years...
Derailing/rerailing is a CONSTANT with new Ops members always being trained and experiencing their lst few solo runs. It takes a long time to learn someone elses' layout if it's of a good size. It has little to do with how perfectly the owner/builder installed their track. So, mishandling of locos (unfortunately is part of beginner activity.
Anyway it got me to thinking...obviously.
Okay, I'm back.
Capt.,That's okay, I like reasonable disagreement. It makes the forum worthwhile. If everyone agreed with everyone all the time, this forum would be pretty dull. As long as we don't break any rules, we can debate this until one of us grows bored...
First off, your description of a realistic drawbar that contains all wire connections is faulty. Real steam locos did not have such a drawbar, and even a slightly oversized one will not be large enough. Again, we're talking about 6 wires at least...7 wires if you want a chuff sensor, 8 if you want a flickering firebox. Real drawbars are not that big. Even an O-scale drawbar isn't big enough. You can't have a "realistic" drawbar that has 6 or 7 or 8 wire connections in it. That's impossible.
Secondly, I've yet to run into a "delicate" wire connection between boiler and tender. Heck, I've seen a couple cases where the loco owner forgot to hook the drawbar and the steam loco pulled his train around the layout by relying on the wires instead. I've also yet to see anyone break a plug or wire. I'm sure it happens, but it's rare. I've been in my club for almost 20 years, and we have some 70 members. We have around 1000 locos on the roster right now, and there's all kinds of steam on it from old Athearn Pacifics to the latest BLI... With just two exceptions, I can't recall a single one that's ever had a broken plug or wire.
Those exceptions? The P2K 0-8-0's that have the multi-wire drawbar that you want. I've seen two of them fail because they fell apart. One owner attempted to fix his and glued all the plugs shut (as I said above). This is not an improvement.
Personally, I think you're slightly crazy to be swapping tenders around during an Ops session. No railroad ever did that. That was something that was only done in the shop. The only thing close to that would be that some RR's would detach the tender because both the loco and tender were too long for the turntable. But this was extremely rare (and note they didn't swap tenders, merely detached and reattached). The labor used and the downtime it caused was so vast that installing a longer turntable was worth it 99% of the time. And the RIP track means "Repair In Place" and generally refers to freight cars. A steam loco would go to the roundhouse...and they almost always kept their tenders. Tenders were removed when a loco would be shopped at a major facility, but not usually until then.
I have two steamers that I have multiple tenders for: a NH I-4 4-6-2 and a NH R-1 4-8-2. I pick one and use it until it's time to put it away again. The next time I use one, I may pick the other tender. But what I don't do is swap them during a session. That's unheard of...(until now).
I disagree about small manufacturers like any in this hobby can make their own plugs with such ease. If it was, then why don't any DCC manufacuturers do this? They all use industry standard plugs.
As for putting a steam loco with tender on the rails, it's not that difficult. Hold the tender in one hand, and the boiler in the other. Most tenders have the pin, while the boiler has the drawbar. Hold it so that tender is lower than the boiler, and place the tender on the rails 1st. Get it on the rails, then lower the boiler so that the drivers are on the rail. Now one can put the the pilot and trailing wheels on, and you're done. It's not that bad, and after a couple hundred times, it's 2nd nature.
Sorry, but the "do it for the kids" mentality just drives me wonky. That's what Thomas, Lego, and Lionel is for. You cannot expect high quality model locos to be fit for 10 year olds (or younger). If you want them to play with trains, buy them toys not models. "Ages 14 and up" is used on most every model train these days for a good reason.
I sure hope you don't expect Lionel and Marx-like durability from HO models. It ain't gonna happen. Besides, these didn't have any electrical connection between boiler and tender. And yes, I know because my father still has his Lionel trains and my mother still has her Marx trains (she was an only child so she got some non-girl toys when she was a kid). They have a simple metal drawbar that hooks together and does not form a circuit. American Flyer steamers did have plugs and wires. They were made from bakelite and were not all that robust as bakelite is rather brittle. And yes, I've had some experience with these, as well, as my next door neighbor had a large AF layout.
There is no such thing as a "bullet proof" connector that's small enough for HO scale. There's too many wires for that.
About the only robust connector you have in HO scale steam is the simple one-conductor drawbar that is common on older steam models, both brass and plastic. The tender picks up only one side of the track, and sends power through the drawbar to the motor. One can keep that with DCC if you put the decoder in the boiler and don't have a back-up light. Other than that, you need plugs.
BTW, there is a coupling drawbar on the market from Greenway Products. It's a split drawbar that has a swallowtail end to it. The two ends are sprung so that they pinch like pliers. You can put both the boiler and the tender on the track, then simply push them together with a click. But if you have plugs, well, you have to do them seperately.
Now to the photos...
Look at the CP tender above in Pic #1. There's the stoker (the auger screw) on top resting on stack of wood. Then the buffer plate. To the left of that, there appears to be 3 hose connections, with the middle one not being used. These are probably air brake (train brake and independant) and signal connection (that's the missing one, most likely). Then there are 4 heavy hose connections for steam and water on the lower left and right. There is also an electrical connection for the rear light that's looped over the other hoses on the left. That's a lot of conncections there.
On Pic #2, the Reading 4-8-4: You can see the steam/water/air lines on the bottom. Above that is the two-part drawbar (most were doubled on large engines). Then you have the buffer plates and above that, the stoker tube. Above that is the apron plate.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Okay, I promise I'll come back and read everything tomorrow and actually give a thought out reply. But since it's 1:40AM where I am, I'm just going to post these two pics I took at Steamtown 3 years ago and go to bed.Picture #1 - Canadian Pacific tender.
Picture #2 - Reading T-1 Northern tender connection:
Okay, I think I'm caught up with the OP now. Yes, I have pulled a wire out trying to work with a Bachmann 4449. Annyoing, I agree. But that's why I reccomended the tape, the strength becomes of four instead of one.
-Morgan
Capt.
I have to say I am largely with Paul on this. Maybe for the same and different reasons.
One, these are fragile models, not childrens toys, and as they advance in detail and function they will become more fragile, not less.
I too believe they look and work fine. I here others complain about this on the Bachmann forum and don't quite understand what you/they expect.
I have a large fleet of Bachmann Spectrum as well as Proto and BLI/PCM steamers - I don't have issues with this aspect of any of them.
I will admitt, I don't carry my locos around to others (or club) layouts as a general rule, but if I did, I would transport them in something that would allow them to stay coupled.
For ever Mantua locos had semi perminate drawbars with one wire, that system worked well in my view. The ability to "latch" the drawbar might be a better idea than trying to make the plugs easier to disconnect.
I couple them, put them on the layout and leave them alone, OR, I carefully lay them in a cradle and disconnect everything. Again they already are fragile, with or without the wires.
I reject the notion that manufacturers should make the products more "robust" or toy like to accomodate newbies or those who lack the skill to handle them. Marklin, Lionel and MTH are already in that business. I prefer models.
Admittedly, I'm a lone wolf and only "play" with a select group of other modelers, so few, if any, "others" ever handle my locos. If I break it, I deal with it. Have not broken anything in a long time. Patience is a virtue.
Standardization would be good from a tender swap point of view, but it will never happen for a number of reasons.
Many of my locos have tenders different from what they came with, but I cannot imagine trying to use one tender today and a different one next time, as you discribe.
I do modify many of the drawbars to provide closer coupling and better wire clearance/placement.
Derailments? what are they? By choosing to build my layout and select my roster based on a set of conservative performance standards, and having learned to install excelent trackwork, derailments are a thing of the past here. Yes, they do happen from human error on occasion, but seldom as a function of mechanical failure in track or equipment. Large curves, large turnouts, no super sized locos, makes for happy railroading with no derailments.
My standards?
Minimum radius - 36", most is 42" and larger - turnouts all #6 and larger.
All curves have spiral easements.
NO locomotives with a rigid wheelbase of more than 20 scale feet. (largest rigid wheel base steam loco is a Reading T-1)
Tenders coming unhooked from locos? Another puzzle to me - track is supposed to be smooth and not have abrupt vertical curves, dips, etc.
If they stay on the track, and the trackwork is good, they won't uncouple. BUT, as per the Mantua example, a small piece of rubber tubing on the slip post will keep them together forever.
In my view, and your not the first person to hear it, blaming these wiring connections for bad track or rough handling or impatience is not fair to the product.
I don't want higher prices for more toylike models like MTH, you know infrared tender connection.
I still run DC and its quiet in my world, but I would not giveup the improved electrical pickup of todays locos, so like Paul said, you need at least 6 wires.
Very happy with my 30 Spectrums, 5 BLI/PCM's, 4 Proto's, 2 IHC's and a few old brass and Mantua's now sporting Bachmann tenders with wires.
Sorry Paul and all. My message got "shoved" back into Safarii from Foxfire when I went to peek at an incoming email (which too me back into Safarii, removing all paragraph indentation.) I did't dare try to reinsert them as Safarri then starts leaving out entire paragraphs already written!)
This is almost as frustrating as...those little loco to tender connections :-)
I appreciated that Trix permanently couples their Mikado tender to the engine....although it can be decoupled if you want...but it is shipped coupled and looks great.
cacole,Seriously? Try simply looking at the Mouser website, or Allied Electronics. These sorts of interconnects can be had by any "mere mortal" who can afford to buy them.
And do you really think that even Sandra Kan is going to invent a new socket just for model trains? Of course they are going to use "industry standard" connectors they can get in bulk for pennies. They'd be fools not to.
Capt. GrimekI've been trying to understand why those "stupid" plug in/wire harness connectors are used in almost all HO and N Scale production models rather than a "real" coupler design or at least something solid enough to easily and dependably disconnect without having to have the gentle touch of a safe cracker or nitro glycerine handler in order to quickly, easily and fear free repeatedly disconnect and reconnect them?
I've been trying to understand why those "stupid" plug in/wire harness connectors are used in almost all HO and N Scale production models rather than a "real" coupler design or at least something solid enough to easily and dependably disconnect without having to have the gentle touch of a safe cracker or nitro glycerine handler in order to quickly, easily and fear free repeatedly disconnect and reconnect them?
Because Sanda Kan, the Chinese manufacturer of over 50 different brands of imported models, uses cheaper "industry standard" connectors that can be purchased in bulk for a mere pittance. Unfortunately, we mere mortals can't purchase those same connectors.
Capt. Grimek,Just exactly what kind of connection do you want? What do you consider a "real" connector? How do you know something like that even exists? What makes you think that a small-time hobby company like Athearn or Walthers can invent one?
With a DCC loco with the decoder in the tender, you need at least 6 wires between the tender and boiler: 2 wires from the drivers to the decoder for track power, 2 wires from the decoder to the motor, and 2 wires for the front headlight. This means that whatever connector one uses needs to be fairly substantial. But it can't be too big because there's only so much room available. And that's not getting into things like how flexible it has to be.
Besides, real steam locos had all kinds of hoses between tender and boiler. Air lines, steam lines, water lines, etc. Seeing a huge drawbar like the P2K 0-8-0 isn't exactly prototypical. Drooping wire bundles are, however, a smidge more realistic.
Speaking of which, these P2K drawbar plugs weren't perfect, either. They tended to fall apart and were a real pain to put back together. One guy in my club use CA cement and accidently glued all the plugs shut. Ooops!
For my brass fleet, I use Minatronics mini plugs. They seem to do all right. For keeping my tenders attached, I use A-Line boxes to transport them whenever I can.
IMHO, I think the greater question is: why do manufacturers insist on shipping the boiler and tender seperate? And why do they insist on making boxes that cannot transport the steam loco with the tender attached? I think most of our problems can be solved by the simple expediency of getting the loco already connected from the manufacturer and shipped that way. Then, why would anyone ever have to disconnect or connect them?
The old AHM Rivarossi steam locomotives used to send power through the draw bar as well, one of the most common problems with those engines were the trucks would get turned 180 degrees on the tenders causing short circuits. DC mind you, as the locomotives had no electrical pick up what so ever so an engine cold never be run without a tender.
On larger Proto Heritage 2000 there is a little cut out section on the bottom of the tender where the wires tuck up into and I believe there is even a little metal clip that snaps over it holding them from hanging down.
As mentioned before a little bit of black paint goes a long way in hiding the unsightly wires. I have no luck using electrical tape as it seems too stiff, I would like to think you could use heat shrink tubing but then the plug has to come off or the wires be disconnected from inside the tender so you could slip it over the wires. I'll take the black paint.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
First off, bundle them in tape, that gets you closer to the engine to tender water and steam lines, and if yuou have them, oil lines, running betwxt the two. Creates a stronger cord as well. As for loosening them, I got nuthin'
Onething to love about the Genesis Big Boy. Athearn found the right fit for the plug, it will pull out easily with evternal force, but not through train running. It's a snug fit, not a lock. And, it goes in the back, not underneath, so you don't have to flip the model. One can seperate by pulling the tender straight back.
The problem is that, wires bend around curves very easily, as opposed to 2x? plugs. Proto did a nice job with theirs for the 0-8-0, I don;t have any other P2K steamers to judge by. They have a plug on the steamer and the tender, badly disguised as the drawbar. The problem is there is a snap clasp similar to the Atheanr cuplerbox plates, top and bottom. If you don't get that to fit tightly, and the tender has a screw there that has to be removed to get inside, then it will let go and tender+train goes screaming down the hill and the steamer had power ripped out from under it suddenly.
MTH is doing infared with their engines, no wires at all. I don't like the potential interference issues, and I kinda miss the stuff that should be hanging out down there. But since it's patented, no one else can use it.
It has been done already. P2K 0-6-0 has the plug as a draw bar. Too bad the wire for the headlight on mine broke.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Hi!
I feel your pain........ My steam roster consists of 3 Spectrums and 3 BLI Paragons. Most of them have sound systems, which adds to the wiring. The Spectrums are somewhat "worse" in that the wires are color coded - making them way too obvious. I will probably hit them with some flat black in the near future. The BLIs were a bear to plug in, until I realized the female end of two of them was somewhat plugged up with plastic. I drilled them out (carefully!!!) and then they connected just fine.
But like you said, the process of plugging and unpluggin seems to be a recipe for disaster, and one would think a better way would be in the offing.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Aside from the fact that the wire harnesses dangling down look terrible even with non-rivet counters, are extemely fragile, etc. what's SO hard designing something solid with wires run internally in MOST/ALL models?
Most people I operate with and I myself, avoid like the plague, disconnecting and reconnecting in order to transport our locos to each other's sessions.
I'm surprised that an easier, more solid design hasn't emerged by now. Does anyone know why/why not? If I was younger, smarter, had the money and time for product development I'd be right on top of this one. IS anyone talking about producing such an item? I think only one manufacturer has even attempted this so far.
Thoughts? Product news? Easy scratch built substitutes you've done yourself?