Hello everyone,
I'm still on the fence about DC or DCC wiring for my future layout and I'll need to make a decision soon as my first section will need to be wired soon. I'm really leaning towards DC Walk around, and I've hit a ton of sites that have them for sale, or show you how to build them, but no on talks about how to wire your layout for them. Can anyone provide me some information on how this is done? What kind of plugs to use? Do I run multiple wires for track power from the power supply to the jacks? How does this work? I don't mind block wiring and I don't think the better half is going to afford me a big enough budget to do DCC but I still want walk around capability. Can you help?
Thank you.
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
Thanks for the input Seamonster. So if I'm understanding this correctly. I need to take DC power from both of cabs to a three position rotory switch or DPDT to a jack where I can plug in my walk around DC controller? Or will CAB selection be done on the controller itself? I think I've seen that option of some of the ones I've looked at. I guess I really need to sit down and brain storm how I'm going to wire this up. Hmmmmm, I'm hungry for food for thought. LOL
Thanks again. ARR
It all depends on WHICH DC walkaround system you get. Most common would be the type that you need to wire the first way, but there are some that work the second way. The second way is usually more expensive, but requires much less wiring.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks Randy. I guess I should start shopping for throttles eh?
One suggestion I'd offer, since I did something similar at our club, is to choose a connector that will allow you to wire all jacks on the layout for all throttles. We used a homebuilt system, based on a Model Railroader article, and each throttle required 4 wires. We have six cabs, or a total of 24 wires. We used a 25 pin D-Subminiture connector, common to computers so we expect it to be available for some time to come. Cab A is pins 1 thru 4, Cab B is 5 thru 8, etc. Each jack on the layout has 24 of the 25 pins wired to the respective throttle, each handheld unit has only the 4 connections for that one cab, and there's only one handheld for each cab, making it somewhat idiot resistant. No matter which jack you plug in to, you still only control that one cab. If you use individual 4 pin jacks, it would be easy to plug two controllers into the same cab.
For your system, if you choose a controller needing 4 wires, you can do the same thing with a 9 pin D-Subminiture.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the information, that's a pretty smart idea. And I really liked the " idiot resistant" comment. Not quite proof but resistant.
AltoonaRailroader I don't think the better half is going to afford me a big enough budget to do DCC but I still want walk around capability.
I was using MRC control master 20's which are somewhat cheap compared to custom walkaround DC setups, and even at $70-$100 each used on ebay, the first time one blew, I started thinking seriously about converting to DCC. Instead of buying that 4th CM 20, I bought a Prodigy Advance and 2 NCE D13 decoders for about $175, and have been DCC ever since. I did already have a BLI dual mode loco, so that helped as well. It also helped an incredible ammount not having to block wire my new layout, even though I will have to do sao anyway for signals in the future. I did get really good at soldering and running all those DPDT feeders, though.
AltoonaRailroader I don't mind block wiring and I don't think the better half is going to afford me a big enough budget to do DCC but I still want walk around capability
You'll end up spending more money, time and aggravation wiring DC. You could buy the NCE Powercab system, and for $100 more you could have walk around throttle, all for $250 or so. I think you're crazy to go DC.
How many trains will run at once?
How many throttles to you want?, think you need?
How many locos do you own or plan to own?
How big is the layout? Demensions? Length of mainline run?
Are you interested in sound?
All of these questions effect what would be best for you and what would cost the least.
Those who automaticly support one system over another are often only thinking from their perspective.
DC does not offer good control of sound locomotives. If you want sound you should seriously consider DCC.
DCC will get expensive if your existing loco fleet of DC locos is large. Decoders, even inexpensive ones can add up fast if you have a lot of locos to convert.
DC or DCC, the cost and complexity will grow with the layout and/or loco fleet size. Many with small to medium sized layouts see DCC as being inexpensive, and for them it is, but as layouts get larger, or have more locos/operators, they need more power districts, reverse modules, throttles, and decoders as the loco roster grows. Even if we assume layout infrastructure costs to be similar between DC and DCC, a large fleet of locos not already DCC will represent a good sized investment to convert. 100 locos X $15.00 = $1500.00, and that excludes sound and assumes the least expensive decoders.
DCC has some distinct advantages in some cases. If your layout is small and you plan on multiple trains/operators to be running/working at the same time, DCC might well be a better choice. If your layout is large in space, but simple in operation or concept DC might well be less expensive and have nearly the same operational flexibilty at a lower cost. If you layout is medium sized and complex, go DCC. Cost and operational considerations will likely be best served. And again, if you have interest in sound, only DCC provides good control of the sounds and good speed control of sound equiped locos.
DC wiring does not have to be expensive or complex - BUT it can be. It depends a lot on your operational goals. Complex DC wiring will make operation simple and easy, but will take planning and cost money depending on layout size and complexity. It can also offer "built in" features that are extra cost with DCC. Signal interlocking and collision avoidance can be built into and advanced DC system at little or no additional cost. Push buttons, toggle switches, wire (which you will still need a fair amount of for DCC on all but the smallest layouts) and even a few control relays for DC are not expensive items. But many who promote only DCC play up the cost of these items.
Understand that if you have any interest in signaling, the cost of either DC or DCC will be higher - BUT, with advance planning DC can intergrate many of the circuits you need for signaling. With DCC and signaling the amount of wiring infrastructure will be the same or more than with DC.
Rather than teathered walk around DC throttles, you could use Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio throttles for wireless DC operation. I and several other on here use them and they work quite well. These throttles provide excelent speed control, work well with factory constant lighting circuits and have great range. They are simple to use and have large easy to operate buttons. They will simplify your wiring compaired to teathered walk around throttles. You will still need some sort of cab selection, but it can be made very "walk around" friendly and easy to wire depending on the number of cabs you need and layout size.
DC wiring does not always require a bunch of "traditional" block toggles, in fact that is likely the worst way to wire a DC layout. There are a number of wiring systems for DC that dramaticly reduce the need for "block" toggles and streamline layout operation. If you want more information on DC wiring options contact me off list with a PM.
A good reference to have is Paul Mallery's "Electrial Handbook for Model Railroads - vol 1 & 2".
I operate at home with DC and the Aristo Train Engineer throttles as explained. I belong to a round robin group where I operate both DC and DCC on a number of other layouts, including another using the Aristo TE and 5 using Digitrax. I have designed one of these other DCC layouts, designed/installed the controls for the other Aristo TE controlled layout and been involved in the wiring of several of the DCC layouts. In my opinion, one size does NOT fit all. Understand your own needs/wants and understand your options before spending a lot on ANY system.
Sheldon
DrilineYou'll end up spending more money, time and aggravation wiring DC. You could buy the NCE Powercab system, and for $100 more you could have walk around throttle, all for $250 or so. I think you're crazy to go DC.
This is exactly the kind of comment that keeps DC and DCC operators at odds with each other.
So I'm crazy, my self esteem in not invested in your opinion of me.
My whole control system costs just a few dollars more than what decoders for my 100 locos and my 100 turnouts would cost. How many locos do you have that make DCC so cheap?
And it includes detectors, signaling, wireless walk around control and well as both local and dispatchers panel control of those 100 mainline turnouts - not to mention it includes 8 of those wireless throttles and has not one "block toggle". How many wireless DCC throttles does your layout have?
Its easy to say DCC is inexpensive with a layout small enough for no boosters, only a couple throttles, no signaling and a limited roster - It gets a little different as things grow.
Admittedly, I do not have sound, nor do I want it.
Aggravation to you is wiring the layout, aggravation to me is installing and programing a decoder or figuring out why the "system" shut down.
Happy to be crazy.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThis is exactly the kind of comment that keeps DC and DCC operators at odds with each other. So I'm crazy, my self esteem in not invested in your opinion of me.
I like you Sheldon, really I do. But this isn't about you, its about HIM. Altoona. He's a first timer and he deserves to know the truth. You've made your decision years ago. Fine, be happy. But honestly I think anyone coming into the fray really should go DCC.
CSX Robert I also realise that if you have a large locomotive roster it can be very expensive to convert to DCC.
I'm not convinced that people with 200 engines run them all at once. I've got about 16 engines and I only run about 7 or 8 at any given time. The others sit with decoders in them. You can buy good decoders for less than 12 bucks a piece.
AltoonaRailroader I'm still on the fence about DC or DCC wiring for my future layout and I'll need to make a decision soon as my first section will need to be wired soon.
I'm still on the fence about DC or DCC wiring for my future layout and I'll need to make a decision soon as my first section will need to be wired soon.
First, you don't need to decide to switch to DCC until you are ready. Good DC wiring practices are readily reused in DCC. Simply plug in a DCC system for one of your DC throttles, set all the blocks to the DCC system, equip your locos with decoders, and you are in DCC. OTOH, if you don't set up the DC blocks in the beginning, adding them later to convert from DCC to DC is not fun (and rarely done).
You didn't say how many operators you are contemplating. The number of operators drives DC costs, and scaling up is not linear. A single operator in DC is very simple, regardless of the number of locomotives. Two operators adds a layer of complexity, but is still reasonably simple. Three or more operators forces changes in the type of block controls and really gets a lot of benefit from techniques to reduce the number of blocks. Size of layout has only a small impact and number of locomotives has no impact on DC costs - it's the number of operators that is the driver. Extra features such as memory walk around, special pulse control, wireless, sound control, are implemented on a per throttle basis - you can equip none, one, two, or all your throttles with the features of your choosing.
DCC has a high 1st operator cost, but each additional operator represents only an additional throttle. But DCC has a per locomotive cost as well. Because there is a central command station that runs the system, extra features cost on a system-wide basis, whether you use the features on all throttles or not.
I'm really leaning towards DC Walk around, and I've hit a ton of sites that have them for sale, or show you how to build them, but no on talks about how to wire your layout for them. Can anyone provide me some information on how this is done? What kind of plugs to use? Do I run multiple wires for track power from the power supply to the jacks? How does this work? I don't mind block wiring and I don't think the better half is going to afford me a big enough budget to do DCC but I still want walk around capability. Can you help?
As other posters have stated, in general terms a throttle bus(s) is set up to link the various plug-in jacks to the throttles (command station in DCC). I think the unique pin assignments for each DC throttle in a single plug is a great idea. It saves having to invest in distinctly different plugs for each throttle or having to hope the labeling is sufficiently obvious to keep from plugging into the wrong jack. DCC gets around the problem by having each throttle have a unique ID in its comms with the command station. This is also done in the more elaborate DC throttles so that a throttle bus and plugs can be shared.
You may want to have your throttle(s) equipped with memory so that when you unplug, the train keeps moving while you plug into the new jack. With my small layout, I don't want the train to be able to run without my being able to directly control it. The last thing I want is for something to go wrong while I'm unplugging and plugging in, and not be able to do anything about it. The worst case is that you can't get the throttle plug to make proper contact in the jack. Note that this is a smaller layout issue in both DC and DCC that is rarely discussed. Straight DCC is even more problematic in that you don't have block toggles to help stop the runaway unit and/or prevent collisions.
Wireless throttles get rid of the throttle bus(s) and associated wiring - and eliminate plugging/unplugging. But if your wireless link isn't reliable enough, you have the same issue.
If the layout is small, and the walkaround can get by with a single jack and a 15ft coiled cord, life is remarkably simple regardless of whether DC or DCC is chosen. This is where I am, never having had to engage multiple operators on my home layout. My DC walkaround is a simple throttle with a speed controller and direction toggle, on a 15ft telephone coiled handset cord.
In DC, unless the layout is configured for a dispatcher to make power assignments in coordination with track assignments, disbursing the block and turnout controls to the area where they will be easily reached makes walkaround control come "alive". On my small layout (planned to end up as 4x7 with shelf extensions), I would have 3 local panels - one on each side of the layout, and one on the shelf extension. Each local panel has the few block toggles and turnout controls (I use a mix of Tortoise and manual and twin coil) for operations in that area. Note that walkaround DCC has to do the same with turnout controls or control them through the throttle (which requires decoders for the turnouts).
In the '50s through '70s, methods to reduce the number of block controls were published regularly - I recommend liberal use of these methods if you envision multiple operators. Just using power routing on the turnouts can reduce the number of blocks for the typical 4x8 oval with passing siding and some spurs and perhaps a small yard from the usual 8-12 blocks down to 5-6. Note that Atlas and other non-power-routing turnouts can be made to be effectively power-routing with the use of contacts on the switch machine or throw mechanism.
hope this helps
Fred W
DrilineI'm not convinced that people with 200 engines run them all at once. I've got about 16 engines and I only run about 7 or 8 at any given time. The others sit with decoders in them.
DrilineYou can buy good decoders for less than 12 bucks a piece.Â
CSX Robert I don't get your point here,
No one in their right mind needs or is going to have to convert 200 loco's to DCC right away. Unless its some large club layout, but thats not what we're talking here.
DrilineNo one in their right mind needs or is going to have to convert 200 loco's to DCC right away.
Hello eveyone,
First I'd really like to thank everyone of you for your input on both the DC and DCC side. You have really given me some food for thought and I will take those idea's and advice and compare the apples to oranges to figure out what is best for me. I truly did not intend to provoke a semi-heated exchange on this topic, but perhaps it will be helpful to others when they are trying to make the same decision. If anyone follows my insanity, about a month ago I was asking all about DCC decoders and converting my loco's to DCC, blah, blah, blah. Some of you make very good sense to me on the cost differences between the two, and the ease or difficulty in comparison of both, remembering that DC walk around controllers are not very cheap either. But having limited experience with DCC I think I need more exposure to it before jumping in with both feet. Since some of you asked, here is some back ground on my future layout build, and loco's.
Loco's = about a dozen comprised of older Athearn's (that would probably need remotored for DCC), some Model Power(which I can remotor now too) and some other misc loco's. Sound is not important to me and I always plan to buy more motive power when I can. Loco's are diesel from 60's to 70's with maybe a K-4 Pacific for excursions.
My Layout = Not huge by any means. it's a 24" wide 9'x 9.5' around the walls layout with an open middle. Double mainline with hidden staging under table. Small classification yard, industrial area, small water feature, short incline, coal mine, power station, warehouse and lumber yard switching........can't think of much else. Will probably not run more than one or two loco's at a time. Perhaps somekind of metro line running around the outer loop while doing industry switching on the inside.
I can't think of much else at this time, but please feel free to ask me anything about it, maybe you'll make me think about something I have not.
ARR
DrilineI like you Sheldon, really I do. But this isn't about you, its about HIM. Altoona. He's a first timer and he deserves to know the truth. You've made your decision years ago. Fine, be happy. But honestly I think anyone coming into the fray really should go DCC.
You are right, it's not about me, that's why I gave the OP information rather than call people names.
But, to talk about me for just a minute, my layout requires about 80 powered units (each would require a decoder) to run 25-30 pre stagged trains during a 3 hr operating session. The rest are in the engine terminal on standby. No shelf queens at my house, no collecting at my house. no nostalgic old junk not worth putting decoders in sitting on a display shelf.
100 +/- current model locomotives needed to run the desired oprating scheme on the layout with 800' of double track mainline, 100 turnouts and stagging for 25 trains. Complete with signaling, including working interlocking signals and simplified CTC and/or train order/tower dispatching in a room that is 24 x 40 on trains on two levels with eight wireless throttles and room for eight trains to be in motion.
The typical power on a mainline train is 3-4 powered diesels (F unit or GP unit lash ups) or 1-2 steam locos. Typical train is 35-50 cars.
Now I'm shopping for a new home (or land to build one) that may well have an even larger layout space. Give an estimate of what you think DCC and DCC signaling and turnouts would cost? Way more than I have spent on my DC system.
In my post to the OP, I gave lots of reasons/situations when DCC would be the best choice, but is is not the only choice.
By the way, how did we get to 200 locomotives?
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy whole control system costs just a few dollars more than what decoders for my 100 locos and my 100 turnouts would cost. How many locos do you have that make DCC so cheap?
I don't be believe I am prejudice toward DCC as I am an expert on DC control systems and wiring having designed both throttles and automation for it going all the back to electicity shop in 7th grade (1969). I have wired and run massive DC and AC controlled train systems. I have had and used various command control systems since 1983. When I started command units started at $1000 (that was more like $3000 intodays money), decoders started at $50 each, and they only had motor/headlight control. Even then I thought it was way worth it to be able to control the train instead of the track. It is my opinion that DCC is way simpler, more flexible, reasonably cheap (especially if one considers their own time worth anything), and way more fun for anything other than a simple two train operation on a fairly simple layout. I now even use DCC for my simple loop around the Christmas tree layout.
AltoonaRailroader Hi Tom, Thanks for the information, that's a pretty smart idea. And I really liked the " idiot resistant" comment. Not quite proof but resistant.
Nothing can be made idiot proof because idiots are too ingenious.
Besides, I think some take it as a challenge.
Texas ZepherTwo cents worth. 1st I've never understood why people think they have to convert their turnouts to DCC if they go to DCC for the trains. I hate DCC controlled turnouts except for when the computer is in control. 2nd I operate almost 100% DCC. I have thousands (yes really with three zeros) of locomotives and they will probably never be all converted. Some of them are still equipped with CTC-16, PFM sound, or RailCommand. I convert them one at a time, as they are needed for an exhibit, show, or operating session. Nothing says someone has to convert their entire fleet all at once in order to convert to DCC.
I agree, and even if I did use DCC I would control my turnouts as I do now from multiple locations with a simple relay circuit that also provides signal interlocking logic and CTC like operation.
I used that in my example because so many who want CTC or signaling and DCC see that as the way to go, best way or not.
As explained, if the whole fleet is used for the operation, then thy all need to be operational. And, as explained, I don't collect, hang on stuff, or even buy anything in the first place that is not desired for my specific goals of creating/operating this railroad. I likely will never have 1000 locos, but need the 100 I have to do what I want.
Glad you had fun with all that stuff over the years, I had fun with advanced cab control and still am having fun with it without having spent a lot of money on now obsolete products.
Texas ZepherIt is my opinion that DCC is way simpler, more flexible, reasonably cheap (especially if one considers their own time worth anything), and way more fun for anything other than a simple two train operation on a fairly simple layout.
This statement makes a lot of assumptions, I avoid assumptions. Who considers what activities "simpler"?, how does one like to spend their time?, what are their specific layout goals?, what defines "fun"? I too have been doing this a long time, we are about the same age and I had my first layout at age 12 and worked in hobby shops by 14, I'm 52 now. In the early 80's, at my "occupation" as an electrician and electrical design draftsman, I programed and installed some of the first PLC's in industrial control. So the tech thing is not problem, just not what I need or want for my railroad.
DCC is often the best choice for many modelers, but to conclude that it would be best for everyone, or that playing with trains one way is better than some other way is arrogant at best. My modeling goals where well defined before any command control system was practical. Since it has come on the scene I have reviewed its impact and my needs/wants several times. I still don't need or want enough of what it offers to make the investment that would be required for my layout size and goals.
Texas ZepherI now even use DCC for my simple loop around the Christmas tree layout.
Mine is wireless DC.
AltoonaRailroaderLoco's = about a dozen comprised of older Athearn's (that would probably need remotored for DCC), some Model Power(which I can remotor now too) and some other misc loco's. Sound is not important to me and I always plan to buy more motive power when I can.
No disrespect, but your loco roster is....hmmmm how should I say.....subpar. If you don't have plans to purchase loco's manufactured in the 21st century anytime soon, then in my opinion you should stay DC.
When I went DCC, I purchased a few of the newer Athearn, and Atlas loco's. The old Athearn engines pale in comparison. Mine are sitting in a metal drawer and will stay there until I can give them away. I have about 6 older loco's I will never upgrade to DCC because of the open can motors.
Gee, what a difference of opinion one can have when ALL the information is finally revealed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL100 +/- current model locomotives needed to run the desired oprating scheme on the layout with 800' of double track mainline, 100 turnouts and stagging for 25 trains. Complete with signaling, including working interlocking signals and simplified CTC and/or train order/tower dispatching in a room that is 24 x 40 on trains on two levels with eight wireless throttles and room for eight trains to be in motion.
Sheldon, I still don't get why you wouldn't switch to DCC especially because of the immensity of your layout and best of all a NEW MOVE! There's a reason why our Train Club went DCC 15 years ago, and it wasn't because of the hassle. I remember our layout, before DCC. Thousands of wires, waayy too many rotary switches. It was a nightmare. DCC simplified the operations to the point where we actually enjoy the layout now
If you don't live too far from me, I'll help you out with the new layout's switch to DCC.
DrilineSheldon, I still don't get why you wouldn't switch to DCC especially because of the immensity of your layout and best of all a NEW MOVE! There's a reason why our Train Club went DCC 15 years ago, and it wasn't because of the hassle. I remember our layout, before DCC. Thousands of wires, waayy too many rotary switches. It was a nightmare. DCC simplified the operations to the point where we actually enjoy the layout now
No offense, but you really have not read anything I have written here or in previous posts about my DC control system have you?
I don't have any rotary switches to select my cabs. My throttles are wireless and require only learning six large easy to find/use/touch buttoms, not 32.
I'm sorry your club had such a poorly designed DC system, they are not all like that.
My layout includes complete signaling of the mainline and full working interlocking signals like the prototype.
I have local tower control of mainline turnouts for walk around operation and central dispatcher control of them for CTC operation.
My layout is designed fo operation by 8 operators OR just me. I can run 5-6 trains in display mode by myself.
I can walk around OR sit at the CTC panel and track the progess via signal/detection indicators.
The layout is large, but not really complex. It is large to allow large curves (all 36" R and above) and to handle long trains (40-70 cars).
Cabs are assigned to throttles via lighted pushbuttons and these pushbutton stations can be repeated in as many locations as are needed for convenient operation.
Many sections (you would call them blocks, but that is a signaling term, not a power distribution term) are powered automaticly based on turnout position.
Wiring is done in modules, off the layout, which are them installed and hooked up with a minimum number of connections. CAT5 cable is used for much of the control wiring from the modules to the control panels.
The control of track sections, turnouts and signaling is all intergrated into one system.
And since I just built this version of this control system several years ago, it will not be replaced soon. and a new home does not mean a new layout. It is modular and will only require small modification no matter where we go.
Having installed and programed some of the first Programable Logic Controllers to run machinery in industry some 30 years ago, i'm sure I could install a DCC system with no problem. In fact, again repeating things you obviously did not read, I have desgined several layouts with DCC for others and been involved in their construction and wiring.
And lastly there is the 100 locos x $15 = $1500 that would serve no purpose other than to allow me run two trains into each other (which my current system prevents) and cause me to have to disassemble 100 perfectly fine running pieces of equipment.
Still not interested in DCC for the current layout and its goals. Might consider it for a different set of goals or different style of layout, but I doubt I would make such a change soon.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNo offense, but you really have not read anything I have written here or in previous posts about my DC control system have you?
My offer still stands. You will be assimilated.
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRALNo offense, but you really have not read anything I have written here or in previous posts about my DC control system have you? My offer still stands. You will be assimilated.
Only dead fish go with the flow.
ATLANTIC CENTRALTexas ZepherIt is my opinion that DCC is way simpler, more flexible, reasonably cheap (especially if one considers their own time worth anything), and way more fun for anything other than a simple two train operation on a fairly simple layout.This statement makes a lot of assumptions, I avoid assumptions. Who considers what activities "simpler"?, how does one like to spend their time?, what are their specific layout goals?, what defines "fun"?
ATLANTIC CENTRALTexas ZepherI now even use DCC for my simple loop around the Christmas tree layout. Mine is wireless DC.