I use DPDT latching type relays (Mouser # 655-d3060, $2.35 ea. in quantities of 25 or more)
A momentary pulse of 12 volts to the proper coil of the relay changes and holds the position of the relay. The relay contacts control the polarity of the power to the switch machine.
This allows the Tortoise machine to be controlled in the same manner as the old, twin coil machines. The current requirements of the relay is a small fraction of that needed to operate the old twin coil machines.
I also use two photo optical couplers, back to back to indicate when the Tortoise is fully stalled to indicate the position of the switch, but that is the subject for another day.
rrinker ... I will probably not use Switch-Its or DS64s though, I have decided to use RC servos instead of Tortoises, so I will use either Tam Valley boards or Hans Deloof's Loco-Servo boards. Hans' boards are nce because the same board can be used as a two position driver for turnouts or a 3 position for semaphores, should I need any. --Randy
...
I will probably not use Switch-Its or DS64s though, I have decided to use RC servos instead of Tortoises, so I will use either Tam Valley boards or Hans Deloof's Loco-Servo boards. Hans' boards are nce because the same board can be used as a two position driver for turnouts or a 3 position for semaphores, should I need any.
--Randy
If you haven't committed to the tortoise, I'd suggest looking at a servo option too. I've ordered the Singlet from Tam Valley Depot for evaluation because it is on sale right now. Thanks for the tip about LocoServo I'm printing out the manual right now. I've also been considering the Team Digital SMC4.
I have 30 tortoise motors controlled by either DS64, DS44, and PSX-AR. Each is very reliable. The DS44 tortoise motors are controlled from a handheld control panel I built using a Team Digital SRC8. Many of the DS64's are controlled pushbutton inputs wired to the DS64 and mounted next to the switch points (This has been very helpful as I build my layout and wait to build a control panel, I can operate the points without having to remember the addresses). Eventually, I will have control panels distributed about the layout to control the various locations and one central dispatcher panel.
Before starting my layout, I wouldn't even consider using anything but a DS64, but as I saw all those unused functions (routes, solenoid, empty input terminals) I realized that sometimes a DS64 is just a waste of money. That's why I bought a couple of DS44's. And if I were going to stick with Tortoise motors (probably won't because the servo option looks so much bettter and way smaller) I'd definitely consider Switch8's.
If you are leaning toward a control panel. Consider skipping all the hard wiring and use a tower controller like the Team Digital SRC16 or CML DTM30. These both operate as local I/O for control panel buttons and leds, and connect to the rest of the layout via Loconet (No hard wiring to individual turnout motors.)
Greg
Greg Amer
The Industrial Lead
Tortoises on my Santa Fe date back to the dark ages, so I have bus lines from a power source and use toggles on a panel of the fascia at the location of the switch(s) to throw them. Not about to re-invent the wheel and use all the fancy stuff that has come out lately.
Ah it is great to be an old crudmugeon.
Bob
No, you don;t NEED to use a DCC for the TOrtoises. If you DO want to use DCC, depending on how sophisticated you want to be, it can be as much as the Tortoise for the controller, but not necessarily so. The $60 Digitrax one controls 4 Tortoises, $15 per. Plus the other stuff, but if you don;t use Digitrax the feedback part is not usable. The $60 NCE one controls 8, so $7.50 per. DPDT toggle switches are maybe $2 each, plus if you want lighted indications, some LEDs. LEDs can be wired in series with the Tortoise motor wires with no resistors needed.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Okay, I'm a total DCC n00b but as I understand it, you need to attach a DCC controller to each Tortoise? And the price is about the same as a Tortoise? So switching track via DCC is rather expensive, isn't it?
A DS64 costs $60. A Switch-8 is also $60. To compare apples to apples we'd need 2 DS64's (8 turnouts, 16 inputs for feedback/toggles) vs 1 Switch-8 plus one LocoIO. A LocoIO costs me about $20 to build, I'll go $25 to pay for the PIC at Mouser prices. $85 for a Switch-8 plus LocoIO for 8 Tortoises plus 16 connections for feedback and/or toggles. $120 for a pair of DS64's to do the same.
Switch-Its are $20, so $40 to drive 4 Tortoises with local switches, although no feedback.
No I do not include the cost of the computer because the 5 year old machine I use for the train layout was written off long ago. Can't play modern games on it, so I have a new system for that. The old one is more than powerful enough to run JMRI. And I'd be using it anyway for decoder programming, it's not purchased specifically to run the panel.
And there's no programming issues or worry about where I power the DS64's so they don't loose their minds. Yes, I follow the Digitrax group since long before I got mine. There are some reasons I use Digitrax as the command station (Loconet, mainly) and use OTHER brands of decoders in my locos and so forth.
And this is all a 'dream' system anyway, with the bedroom-size layout I'm building now it's WAY overkill to even consider a CTC type operation. Without the need for CTC, I have little reason to use DCC to control the turnouts. Control from the throttle is awkward at best, no matter what the DCC system, so it falls back to an even cheaper option - a simpel toggle switch.
rrinker That's great a DS64 does all that, but what if I ONLY need to control the turnout?
That's great a DS64 does all that, but what if I ONLY need to control the turnout?
That was the whole point of my post: A "cheap" stationary decoder may or may not be "cost effective", depending on what you want to accomplish.
rrinker Routes I can do in the command station or JMRI,
Routes I can do in the command station or JMRI,
Command stations have limited route capabilities, and if you're using JMRI, remember to figure the cost of the computer and interface into that "cost per turnout" figure.
rrinker I don't need feedback because JMRI will 'see' any command sent to the decoder, there are local pushbuttons on the Switch-It, and the circuitry for supporting a solenoid machine is just wasted money when I am using nothing but Tortoises. Actually my control scheme is a bit more complex so the bottom line is I want the simplest and cheapest control for the switch motors, with no need for local buttons - locla button input will be supplied by Loconet input devices, specifically LocoIO boards, fed through JMRI. If local control is allowed, they will operate the turnout. If the dispatcher has not enabled local control, nothign will happen. --Randy
I don't need feedback because JMRI will 'see' any command sent to the decoder, there are local pushbuttons on the Switch-It, and the circuitry for supporting a solenoid machine is just wasted money when I am using nothing but Tortoises.
Actually my control scheme is a bit more complex so the bottom line is I want the simplest and cheapest control for the switch motors, with no need for local buttons - locla button input will be supplied by Loconet input devices, specifically LocoIO boards, fed through JMRI. If local control is allowed, they will operate the turnout. If the dispatcher has not enabled local control, nothign will happen.
In addition to the JMRI computer/interface costs, have you included the expense of those LocoIO boards into your "per turnout" costs? Using the DS64's native abilities and JMRI (which you said you're using anyway), you can accomplish local control with dispatcher lockout without using the LocoIO boards.
I'l give you the CD circuitry thing. You might save a few cents per turnout if the DS64 didn't have it.
But don't forget to add back in the added costs and complexity of using additional external components to complement "cheap" stationary decoders, as opposed to using an "all in one" device. The difference in cost per turnout may be less than you think.
Steve
Pretty much my point exactly. I have no need for any of that, so cheaper wins. Switch-Its DO have button connections though, the Switch-8 does not. If I do 'routes' in JMRI there's no limit at all, well, at some poitn you'd run up against how big a panel can be I suppose.
I'm of the opinion that this is a model, lives ar enot at stake, so wiring up all sorts of postive feedback is just spending a lot of money and wiring time for little or no gain, so I am happy to know that the command got send to the decoder. I have tested my scheme out completely, in fact it uncovered a bug with conditionals in JMRI that I posted and Bob posted an updated version (a couple years ago, it's logn been rolled up in the current versions). I suppose you could say my way is also needlessly complex, and perhaps it is, but the need it serves it to allow local control when there is no dispatcher (computer shut off even), or locked down unless the dispatcher allows it when there is a dispatcher position - so I can easily operate alone or with a group. I've read where some of the big operating layouts get run liek once a month, and sit idle the rest of the time, this is not me. At any rate, my panels will be much like yours, with a whole 3 wires comign out of them: 1 loconet cable, 1 positive DC, and 1 negative DC. I will probably not use Switch-Its or DS64s though, I have decided to use RC servos instead of Tortoises, so I will use either Tam Valley boards or Hans Deloof's Loco-Servo boards. Hans' boards are nce because the same board can be used as a two position driver for turnouts or a 3 position for semaphores, should I need any.
rrinker That's great a DS64 does all that, but what if I ONLY need to control the turnout? Routes I can do in the command station or JMRI, I don't need feedback because JMRI will 'see' any command sent to the decoder, there are local pushbuttons on the Switch-It, and the circuitry for supporting a solenoid machine is just wasted money when I am using nothing but Tortoises. Actually my control scheme is a bit more complex so the bottom line is I want the simplest and cheapest control for the switch motors, with no need for local buttons - locla button input will be supplied by Loconet input devices, specifically LocoIO boards, fed through JMRI. If local control is allowed, they will operate the turnout. If the dispatcher has not enabled local control, nothign will happen. --Randy
That's great a DS64 does all that, but what if I ONLY need to control the turnout? Routes I can do in the command station or JMRI, I don't need feedback because JMRI will 'see' any command sent to the decoder, there are local pushbuttons on the Switch-It, and the circuitry for supporting a solenoid machine is just wasted money when I am using nothing but Tortoises.
Randy,
If cost is the objective then solutions like the NCE Switch 8 or Switch It are less expensive per output but have much less flexibility (i.e. no local inputs for panel switches, no Loconet connectivity etc..). To your point about routes, most command stations have a limit on how many routes they will support and often that number is not very large.
To the original question, here's a link to how I built one of my control panels using DS64s.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Metro Red LineFor those of you with multiple Tortoise switch machines, how do you control them? Via DCC? Did you make a control panel with various switches place don it?
My favorite method is not considered normal operation. I like to use AC power, diodes, and momentary contact switches. That way I can use a common wire. I can control them from multiple locations with only one wire from the location to the switch. One has to hold the switch until the turnout throws. I put the switches on the panel with LEDs wired so that I know when the points have set. This way I also have all four contacts on the tortoise available for other things.
rrinker If you want DCC control, the NCE Switch-It or Switch-8 is rather economical and works with most any DCC system. --Randy
If you want DCC control, the NCE Switch-It or Switch-8 is rather economical and works with most any DCC system.
That's an interesting comment. There's a parallel thread on the Digitrax list where the question was asked what is the most cost effective (ie, economical) stationary decoder. Mike Morey summed it up nicely:
<begin quote>
The answer truly depends upon what you mean by "cost effective." Many (most?) people use that term when they actually want to know is what the cheapest piece of hardware. They later find out it doesn't do this or it can't do that and are disappointed. Remember, you get what you pay for. IMO the Digitrax DS64 is hard to beat once one considers all of its functions and capabilities. Sure, it can control 4 turnouts that have either solenoid OR slow-motion machines but that's hardly ALL it can do. * It can also throw up to 8 routes. * It reports the turnout positions to LocoNet -- that's important if you EVER want position reporting for a real or virtual dispatcher/CTC panel. * Its inputs can be used for trackside control of the turnouts. * The turnouts can be thrown via a throttle, manual switches or computer. * It has 4 (or 8) inputs where block occupancy detectors can be connected to report onto LocoNet. * The 4 turnout numbers do NOT have to be consecutively numbered. That may seem to be a minor point but, trust me, it does come in handy to have the flexibility. * The turnout numbers can be anything from 1 to 2048. Set addresses at or below 999 so people can operate them from throttles. If you set an address at or above 1000 then it's physically impossible to enter on a throttle and it's effectively protected. This is handy if you want any turnouts to be strictly under computer/dispatcher control. Perhaps it comes down to do you want cost effective or function effective?
<end quote>
P.S. I personally used DS54's, but for the layout rebuild/expansion, mostly DS64's.
Maybe not the "cheapest" per turnout, but in my book the DS64's definitely give you the most bang for the buck!
We have a bunch of tortoises at our club. Most are assigned unique accessory IDs so that they can be controlled "remotely" with our NCE system. All all wired to CTC panels with bi-color LEDs to indicate direction thrown. Additionally, some are conencted to our PC and can also be controlled through CTI Electronic's Train Brain program which works extremely well for operating sessions.
Well that's really up to you. If you want DCC control, the NCE Switch-It or Switch-8 is rather economical and works with most any DCC system. If you do not want DCC control, then a simple toggle switch mounted on the fascia is the usual method. I prefer to have the controls located near the turnout they are operating rather than a central control panel, that way I can follow the train around and not have to run back to the control panel to allow the train to take a siding.
For those of you with multiple Tortoise switch machines, how do you control them? Via DCC? Did you make a control panel with various switches place don it? So far I have one installed and wired. It's worked but I don't have it permanently attached to a switch yet. I'm planning a mix of (at least 8) Tortoise-controlled turnouts and the rest manually-switched turnouts on my layout.