The NCE D13SR decoder and ditch lights.

[blrrfan]

maxman

P.S.: concerning the note that ditch lights are non-directional, does anyone know if this is prototypically true?

I think the 1:1 models have switches for all lights and are only directional due to the engineers actions (*)

flashing may be tied into the horn

Our engineer onboard is the decoder, hence I think having directional lights is okay

(*) See http://cqpa.steelvalleywebdesign.com/gp9manual/EMD_GP9_Operator_Manual_frame_page.htm for older unit w/o ditch lights. Search for headlight. Now, modern desktop equipped wide cab units, well, I don't know. Dito ditch light controls

[rrinker]

Can't say I've seen a prototype loco hit the horn while in reverse lately, to knwo if the ditch lights come on or not. If you want to get nit-picky, prototype headlights aren't directional, nor do they dim automatically - it's all controlled by a switch or pair of switches operated by the engineer. Plus the flashing style ditch lights are not used everywhere outside the US. I mean, if they want to get nit-picky...

                                       --Randy

 

[maxman]

Arras88

maxman, the manual you found is probably for the old version of the decoder. Look at this: http://www.ncedcc.com/images/stories/manuals/d13v35_d.pdf 

This is a manual for the decoder which I have. As rrinker wrote: "The D13SR has 4 outputs (...)Two are in the wire harness (F0F and F0R) and the other two are solder pads."

Ahhhh, now I see what happened.  If you look up the product details where they have the decoders listed, you get the new instruction.  I was looking for the information in the "document archives".  Foolish me to think that the place where the documents are to be found was not the place that had all the documents.

By the way, the document I found in the archive has a listing that would lead one to believe that it was a revision dated August 8, 2007, not really that long ago.

Thanks for the direction.

Regards

 

P.S.: concerning the note that ditch lights are non-directional, does anyone know if this is prototypically true?

[blrrfan]

BTW., no matter which version of the decoder (or manual) you have, it states

NCE D13SR manual (on page 5 near the top)

... Ditch lights should not be made directional, they're not directional in real life.

This sounds to me rather intentional, like "non-directional by design"

[rrinker]

 And the CVs are correct, both per the NCE documentation and JMRI. In the NCE documentation under the chart it says for the effect to operate only in the forward direction, add 1 to the CV value. Obviously this does not seem to apply to ditch lights. At this point, only NCE is goign to be able to answer the question, as everythign is programmed per their documentation.

                              --Randy

And yes, the first link to NCE instructions is a 6 year old version of the D13SR. The other link is the manual for the current version - itself over 3 years old. So it's been 4 function now for at least that long.

[Arras88]

jasperofzeal

Do you have the headlights (forward) hooked to the F0F white output, the red (tail) lights hooked to the F0R yellow output and each ditch light hooked to F3 and F4 outputs?  Are there any other lights you have hooked up as well, if so to what output? 

That is right. No other lights.  

Arek

[jasperofzeal]

Arras88

maxman, the manual you found is probably for the old version of the decoder. Look at this: http://www.ncedcc.com/images/stories/manuals/d13v35_d.pdf 

This is a manual for the decoder which I have. As rrinker wrote: "The D13SR has 4 outputs (...)Two are in the wire harness (F0F and F0R) and the other two are solder pads."

Hi.  Just like Maxman, I'm following this thread just for educational purposes since I have some D13SRJ decoders that I'll eventually use in some projects.  What I'd like clarification of, if you don't mind, is what outputs do you have the lights hooked up to.  Do you have the headlights (forward) hooked to the F0F white output, the red (tail) lights hooked to the F0R yellow output and each ditch light hooked to F3 and F4 outputs?  Are there any other lights you have hooked up as well, if so to what output?  I'm trying to use JMRI to maybe come up with a solution but I need to make certain I know which outputs the lights are connected to.  Thanks.

[Arras88]

maxman, the manual you found is probably for the old version of the decoder. Look at this: http://www.ncedcc.com/images/stories/manuals/d13v35_d.pdf 

This is a manual for the decoder which I have. As rrinker wrote: "The D13SR has 4 outputs (...)Two are in the wire harness (F0F and F0R) and the other two are solder pads."

[maxman]

rrinker

The D13SR has 4 outputs

This is what I see for the D13SR on the NCE site: http://www.ncedcc.com/pdf/d13sr.pdf.  Page 2 looks like the connection diagram and I can only see 3 outputs shown,  Then there is a place on page 5 where it talks about the three CVs for outputs 1, 2, and 3.  Page 6 has something about mapping values that references on a little chart an output 4, but the CV chart on page 7 only lists three output EFX generators (CVs 120, 121, and 122).  And I don't see any reference to a solder pad.

So I am either looking at the wrong instruction, or I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading.

Can you help me get my head on straight?

Thanks

[rrinker]

 The D13SR has 4 outputs - I just looked at the manual and description on the NCE web site. Two are in the wire harness (F0F and F0R) and the other two are solder pads. Any NCE decoder with SR in the name is silent running, none of them have BEMF. D13SR and D13SRJ are the same other than the SRJ having a 9 pin JST connector which brings the extra two outputs out as wires instead of solder pads. They may have made them initially without the torque compensation, but going back at least 4 years to my last batch of D13SRJ's they've had torque compensation.

 Interesting, both JMRI AND the NCE documentation say values of 57 and 61 should be on only in the forward direction. 56+1 for the right ditch light, 60+1 for the left ditch light. Error in the documentation? Or they missed somethign in the firmware of the decoder.

An alternative decoder would be a TCS T4X, they also work very well with LEDs (they have a setting like NCE for light bulbs vs LED), and have directional control on all possible effects.

                                     --Randy

 

[maxman]

Arras88

The values from JMRI are the same which I calculated according to the manual:

CV35 = 0         output 3 is not controlled by F1
CV36 = 12        8+4   outputs 3&4 controlled by F2
CV122 = 185    56(Type1 Right Ditch Light) + 128(LED)  + 1 (function active only in the forward direction)
CV123 = 189    60(Type1 Left Ditch Light)   + 128(LED)  + 1 (function active only in the forward direction)

I tried with two decoders D13SR and D13SRJ (output 3&4 - green&violet wire) and the result is the same.

I'm trying to follow along and possibly learn something from this thread.  But when I try to correlate JMRI to your particular decoder I see some conflicts.

First, when I looked at the NCE on-line documentation for the D13SR decoder the diagram on page 2 only shows 3 outputs.  But from your post it seems that you have 4.

And looking at JMRI it appears that there are different versions of the D13SR, some silent running, some with torque compensation, and possibly some with back EMF.  Then there is the D13SRJ you referenced, which also might have different versions.

So that I can follow along, can you tell me exactly which decoder you are using, how many outputs it shows on page 2 of the instructions, and what the decoder version is?

(The reason I ask is that I put what I think you want the decoder to do into JMRI and came up with different CV values....as I said, I'm trying to learn something also.)

Thanks!

[blrrfan]

Arras88

blrrfan, It seems that you are right and outputs 3&4 on a NCE cannot be made directional. I followed your advice and did a new function mapping CV33 = 13 (1+4+8) to map both outputs to the function F0 fwd. It doesn't work as well. The ditch light are turned on even if I choose the reverse direction. They should turn off like a head light when I change the direction but they are turned on no matter which direction the model runs.

The confusing part is: in my experience all outputs can be made directional, except when they are configured as ditch lights. (Try for the fun a different effect, or no effect). I used finally one extra transistor controlled by the headlight output to make them directional. Not even with F0fwd, hmm.

Arras88

I think I will email the NCE support. Maybe they have a solution. I chose these decoders after I studied the manual and I was sure that the decoder would be suitable for my needs.

Let us know if they have something which helps. I am using these as well because the LED control is quite good, but the non-directional effect on the ditch lights forced me so far for seeking the workaround using an extra transistor. Or I'll give up on directional, like F0 is front ditch lights (non-directional), F1 is front headlight, F3 is rear, F2 activates ditch lights. F4 dims

[CSX Robert]

Arras88

PS I am sorry if I made any error. Although English is much easier than Polish I am still learning it 

Your English is very good. In fact, it is better than that of some people who post on here and use English as their native language.

[Arras88]

It took me some time but I learnt something new. I have not heard about JMRI before. I managed to configure it and check the CV's values for the decoder. [Randy thanks for your tips].
The values from JMRI are the same which I calculated according to the manual:

CV35 = 0         output 3 is not controlled by F1
CV36 = 12        8+4   outputs 3&4 controlled by F2
CV122 = 185    56(Type1 Right Ditch Light) + 128(LED)  + 1 (function active only in the forward direction)
CV123 = 189    60(Type1 Left Ditch Light)   + 128(LED)  + 1 (function active only in the forward direction)

I tried with two decoders D13SR and D13SRJ (output 3&4 - green&violet wire) and the result is the same. The ditch lights work properly when the model runs in forward direction. When the engine runs backward the ditch lights are still turned on and when I press F2 they turn off for a moment. After I release the button they turn on again.

blrrfan, It seems that you are right and outputs 3&4 on a NCE cannot be made directional. I followed your advice and did a new function mapping CV33 = 13 (1+4+8) to map both outputs to the function F0 fwd. It doesn't work as well. The ditch light are turned on even if I choose the reverse direction. They should turn off like a head light when I change the direction but they are turned on no matter which direction the model runs.

I think I will email the NCE support. Maybe they have a solution. I chose these decoders after I studied the manual and I was sure that the decoder would be suitable for my needs.

Thanks for your patience and help.

PS I am sorry if I made any error. Although English is much easier than Polish I am still learning it 

 

[maxman]

Arras88

I am  trying to configure the NCE D13SR decoder for ditch lights. I did all steeps according to the manual but there is a problem when the model runs in the reverse direction.

Looking at JMRI as Randy recommended seems to indicate that the decoder can be set up to do what you want.  The directions for the D13SR show three light outputs.  The first output is for the front light, the second is for the rear light, and the third is available for the third light or lights.

 How do you have the decoder set up?  Is the first output for the front light, which would be what you're calling the white light, the second output for the red light, and the third output for the ditch lights?  And are the ditchlights supposed to alternate or flash in parallel?

Also, it seems that the decoder settings want to know if you're using bulbs or LEDs with a resistor.  If you can provide all this information, maybe someone can do a dummy set up in JMRI and tell you what CV gets set to which value. 

[blrrfan]

If I recall my own experience outputs configured as ditch lights on a NCE cannot be made directional (i.e. bit 0 and 1 are ignored of the output config CV are ignored. At least for firmware versions 3.1 to 3.5 which I have)

Now I am wondering what happens if you map the ditch light outputs to the F0fwd function only? (Turn on/off with F0, flash with F2. And then [maybe] directional via F0fwd vs. F0rev?)

[rrinker]

Which actual output wires did you attach the various lights to? You can do what I was going to do - use JMRI to determine the CV settings, even if you don't have a way to connect it to your DCC system. You can configure to uswe one of the 'simulation' conenctions, then simply select the D13SR decoder and open the comprehensive programmer. Change the settings ont he Lighting tab to match what you are trying to do, and then go to the CV tab and all the ones that need to be changed will be highlighted in red.

                                                --Randy

 

[Arras88]

Hello,

I am  trying to configure the NCE D13SR decoder for ditch lights. I did all steeps according to the manual but there is a problem when the model runs in the reverse direction.
When it runs in the forward direction the lights work properly. The ditch lights are lit and continue flashing when I press F2 button. After I release the button they are lit again.

Problem appears when the engine runs in the reverse direction. The ditch lights are turned on and when I press F2 they turn off for a moment. After I release the button they turn on again. In my opinion the ditch lights shouldn’t work at all in the reverse direction. There is an option in the manual to configure it:
“3 - If you want the function to be active only in the forward direction add 1 to the CV value”
I did it but it didn’t help.

I want to use this decoder in Athearn Bombardier cab car. I installed the red and white lights but I can’t configure the decoder to operate ditch lights properly. All I need it is the working ditch light only in the forward direction. If the cab car runs forward there ditch lights should turned on and flashing when the F2 button is pressed. If the cab runs backward only the red lights should be turned on.

I would be grateful for any tip how to resolve this problem. I know I can use a decoder from another producer but I have already bought some NCE decoders.Regards,
Arek