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Strange effect with DN163K2 in Proto N RS-2

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yyz
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Posted by yyz on Friday, June 12, 2015 12:45 PM
Thanks for the info.
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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, June 11, 2015 7:45 AM

 Notice in the throttle by the arrows is a steam engine graphic. The arrow points to the front or back of the little steam engine. If it points to the front, that's forward. Forward is forward reltive to the loco, the arrow does not indicate absolute direction of movement. Clockwise, counter-clockwise - the direction arrow is not intended to indicate this. What if the tracks ran towards the backdrop or towards the aisle? Now what?

 Between the wiring of the loco and the setting of CV29, you can make sure that when the arrow points to the front of the steam loco icon, the loco on the track moves in what should be its forward direction, be that long hood first or short hood first, which is entirely dependent on the practice of the prototype you are following. If you aren;t modeling a specifc prototype, make something up - just be consistent. It was more common to run early hood units long hood front, but not all did that. With second generation diesels, many changed that around and more ran short hood forward, but not all did.

                               --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by retsignalmtr on Thursday, June 11, 2015 6:04 AM

With my Digitrax system wired A rail is the front rail, B rail is to the rear. Placing my RS-2's long hood to the right so they run clockwise, they run long hood forward with the direction arrows on the throttles matching the direction of travel. If I turn loco around long hood to the left the loco moves counter clockwise, long hood forward, but the direction arrows still indicate a clockwise direction. This holds true with all my Diesels and my steam locos as well.  

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Posted by jjdamnit on Wednesday, June 10, 2015 5:18 PM

Hello All,

In a short answer- -Yes, the motors polarity from the OEM PCB could be opposite to the aftermarket PCB decoder.

You didn't say what railroad the shell is, but you did hint at Santa Fe.

There have been other posts about the practice of running-long or short-hood forward.

The consensus of these discussions has been that different railroads ran the same loco in different "directions" for various reasons; safety, crew visibility, MU configuration and not needing turntables to "turn" a diesel. 

In doing a quick search on RailPictures.Net under: Alco RS-2; All Railroads, I found that most railroads pictured ran them long hood forward (designated by the "F" on the sills). However, many railroads pictured did't have a forward designation on their units.

That's not to say that these units weren't run in unique MU configurations.

On my pike "forward" is clock-wise. I configure the direction CV to account for this on each locomotive and consist, as has been suggested. Check the manufacturers CV tables for more specific programming info.

On my snowplow train I run a Santa Fe blue Alco RS-11 long-hood forward.

Hope this helps.

"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"

yyz
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Posted by yyz on Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:40 AM

Hi, I know it is very late reply but I understand your question. May be the motor orientation is is different in Kato and Walters. I noticed that with Walters if you put the loco's short nose on forward DC track, it moves forward on short nose and if you put the long nose on forward mode (DC) it moves forward on long nose. But in case of Kato engine whichever side you put on forward direction it moves that way. Yes, long nose is always the forward direction for these locos as I have seen in Canada.

yyz
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Posted by yyz on Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:21 AM
Hello tbdanny, I am from Toronto Canada. I know it is very late reply but I understood your question. Yes I have seen these locos running in Canada and yes the longer side of the loco is front or forward moving.
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Posted by mfm37 on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:31 PM

 I've got a couple of Kato RSC-2's and an SD80. Can't say which way is forward but they all run in the direction of the headlight that's lit. When I MU the RSC-2's short hood to short hood each one runs forward depending on which way the train moves.

Acrually the DN163K2 replaced two decoders and it fits both the SD80/90 and RSC-2's.

Originally, the RS2 and RSC2's took a DN148K which is unique to that engine. SD80/90 got the DN141K2 which was unique to that mechanism. I'd have to dig them all out to see which way their defaults run.

DN163K2 probably gets the same code that all of the 163 series decoders use. In the "old days" NDOT could not be fixed with a CV setting. Now it's irrelevant.

 

 

 

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Posted by tbdanny on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:23 PM
I'm aware of the CV29 thing, and I use a Lenz system - so Up/Down arrows.  I'm just trying to determine this out of curiosity.  I'm not sure if I've got the question right in previous posts - namely, 'is the short hood default common to the Walthers version of this model and opposite to the Kato version, or is it just the example I have sitting on my workbench?'

The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, Oregon
The Year: 1948
The Scale: On30
The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:01 PM

 This sort of thing is fairly common. Every one of my Proto GP-7's runs 'backwards' with a default install, they were factory wired to run short hood forward and Reading ran them long hood forward.

 Actual direction on the track is arbitrary - after all, if you have an oval and are standing on the outside, as it passes on the near track it may be moving left to right goign forward, but when it passes on teh back track it will be going right to left - but still moving forward! The way you can tell on a DT400 is which way the arrows point relative to the little engine outline - NOT relative to the track. If the arros points to the front of the loco outline, that's forward - if your particular loco is suppsoed to move long hood forward for that direction but doesn't, this is where you add 1 to CV29 an dmake it an odd number if it's already an even number, or subtract 1 if it's already an odd number to make it an even number. When the arrow points to the back of the loco icon, that's the reverse direction. Either direction may or may not conform to the physical direction the loco moves on the track, but there's no requirement for that. The arrow may point to the left, but if you have the front of the loco facing right, the direction of movement will be against the arrows, but the loco will be moving forward exactly as the direction indicator says.

                                  --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by tbdanny on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:54 PM

I've just done some checking.  According to the Digitrax website, the DN163K2 is designed to fit the Kato RS-2, RSC-2 and SD80/90 series.  The fact that it can be used for the Walthers RS-2 springs from the fact that the two models have an identical mechanism.  According to that spookshow encyclopeadia, the RS-2/RSC-2 were released in 1999, with the SD80/90s in 2001, which would imply the decoder was designed for the Kato RS-2s.  Has anyone installed this decoder in the Kato model, and which direction is the 'default' forward in this model?  I'm trying to isolate if it's to do with just my model, or one of those strange things that come up in life.

The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, Oregon
The Year: 1948
The Scale: On30
The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:21 PM

tbdanny

Allow me to rephrase the question.  What I'm trying to get at is this:

In this particular installation, as most prototypes of this loco ran long hood forward, is the default setting of the decoder opposite to what the prototype was?  The AT&SF was the exception who ran it short hood forward, which is lucky for me.

Maybe the person who chose the default direction modelled the AT&SF!  I thought there were quite a few running short hood forward, and fewer long, but I may have misread somewhere.  It might also be that the decoder was based off of a decoder for a more "modern" loco, where the short hood was always forward.  As arbitrary as it is, it doesn't matter.

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by Vernon/IN on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 5:47 PM

retsignalmtr

What is your indication that it is not running long hood forward?

 

I his original post, he stated the folloing:

"I have noticed that when installed in the Walthers RS-2, with factory default settings, selecting 'forward' results in the locomotive moving short hood forward."

Vernon

Vernon in Central Indiana

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Posted by retsignalmtr on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 5:30 PM

What is your indication that it is not running long hood forward?

 

Turn the loco around and place it back on the track. See if it runs long hood forward. I would say the default is long hood forward. that is the way my two run.

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Posted by tbdanny on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 5:25 PM

Allow me to rephrase the question.  What I'm trying to get at is this:

In this particular installation, as most prototypes of this loco ran long hood forward, is the default setting of the decoder opposite to what the prototype was?  The AT&SF was the exception who ran it short hood forward, which is lucky for me.

The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, Oregon
The Year: 1948
The Scale: On30
The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com

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Posted by retsignalmtr on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 4:21 PM

You're right. Forward is arbitrary. What i was pointing out is that the direction the loco's are moving when going forward does not always correspond to the direction indications on some throttles. On my system loco's having their cabs facing to the right or as in the case of the RS2's the long hood facing right will travel in the direction that the display on my DT 400 indicates.

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:25 AM

"Forward" is an abitrary concept, especially with locomotives that were run both ways.  As long as the lights and direction of travel are consistent with each other, it's "right".  If you want it the other way, use CV29, as David said.

To the other poster, with DCC the direction the loco is on the tracks is irrelevant.  "Forward" and "Reverse" are defined internally to the loco, when you tell it to go forward, the locomotive will always move towards the end that is defined as forward.  

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by retsignalmtr on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:06 AM

I've got two of those locos with the same decoder. It didn't occur to me to check with my DT400 to see if it was moving short hood forward. Most of the time I can't see the small direction arrow anyway. I just run them as I see them.

After replying to your post I tried my two RS 2's on my layout. I put them both on the rails with the long hood to the left. With the direction arrows pointing to the left both locos moved to the right, when I reversed direction with arrows to the right the loco's moved left. I then put the loco's on the track with the long hood to the right and both locos moved to the right when the direction arrows pointed to the right and vice versa. I tried this with other locos and they behaved the same way ( GP 38's U23B's, MP 15's, SD 35's ) All these locos moved opposite to the direction arrows with the cab ends to the left. With the cabs to the right they moved in the same direction as the arrow was pointing. I'm using the Digitrax Empire builder System and all the decoders are Digitrax. As i said before I do not pay attention to the direction arrows.

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Strange effect with DN163K2 in Proto N RS-2
Posted by tbdanny on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 6:38 AM

Hi,

I've just installed a Digitrax DN163K2 decoder in a recently-purchased Walthers Proto N RS-2.  This is the decoder designed to be a drop in to the Kato N scale RS-2, but can be used for this model.  However, I have noticed that when installed in the Walthers RS-2, with factory default settings, selecting 'forward' results in the locomotive moving short hood forward.  I was under the impression that long hood was supposed to be the front for these locos?  Can someone please confirm that this is the case?  I'm not sure if it's to do with a different motor/motor orientation between the Kato and Walthers models, or if it's something specific to my particular model.  (In which case, it's lucky for me that that Santa Fe did run this loco short hood forward).

Thanks in advance,

tbdanny

The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, Oregon
The Year: 1948
The Scale: On30
The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com

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