Yet another DCC system question

[NSColsMP6]

locoi1sa

an upgrade to a Power Pro 5 amp system would be a better choice. Then a radio upgrade next.

That's the conclusion I came up with - if I bought the Digitrax or NCE systems I was considering, I'd quickly be trying to figure out a way to expand up to one of the more advanced systems.  None of which are cheap.  I bit the bullet and spent a few more bucks to get the top of the line MRC.

To use the car analogy everyone loves - I preferred the top of the line Ford to the bottom of the line BMW. :)

[locoi1sa]

  At the Hartford show NCE announced the SB3a will be coming out shortly. The new smart booster takes care of some glitches and issues. While I can see upgrading a Power cab to SB3 system a viable alternative but an upgrade to a Power Pro 5 amp system would be a better choice. Then a radio upgrade next.

    Pete

[frostymug]

simon1966

The NCE Power Cab reverse loop shut down problem is actually an issue with the Smart Booster not the Power Cab.  The Smartbooster short protection responds so fast that auto reverse modules don't have time to respond before the Smart Booster shuts down the layout. 

Here is a quote from www.litchfieldstation.com

"Will NOT work with any known auto reverse module - the SB3 shuts down before the module reverses. Will only work with the CP6 as a short circuit protection system."

According to the NCE web site the Smart Booster is currently not available, so I would imagine that as a reputable company they are coming up with a fix.

 

 

Hey Simon1966,

 Thanks for that! I had started going back through forum posts all over trying to figure out where that note came from. Hadn't thought to go back to Litchfield Station or Tony's yet. So I was kind of close in a ballpark sort of range anyways. I feel marginally less crazy now. Boosters would be a way on down the line kind of thing, if at all, anyways so I imagine they'll find a fix prior to that.

Thanks again. I think I'm finally getting my head wrapped around this whole thing now. After digging through all this, the Ford vs. Chevy vs.Dodge guys seem pretty tame in comparison. 

James

[simon1966]

The NCE Power Cab reverse loop shut down problem is actually an issue with the Smart Booster not the Power Cab.  The Smartbooster short protection responds so fast that auto reverse modules don't have time to respond before the Smart Booster shuts down the layout. 

Here is a quote from www.litchfieldstation.com

"Will NOT work with any known auto reverse module - the SB3 shuts down before the module reverses. Will only work with the CP6 as a short circuit protection system."

According to the NCE web site the Smart Booster is currently not available, so I would imagine that as a reputable company they are coming up with a fix.

[frostymug]

 Randy:

Usually, the back and forths have at some point brought up the number of functions with either MRC or PowerCab guys extolling the virtues of 28 functions or at the least, citing NMRA standards. The Zephyr guys usually claim it is no big deal since they don't use more than a few anyways. I'm picking up what you're throwing down though and that's why I asked in the first place. When I counted up the functions, including sounds, I'd want I could only think of 7 or 8 total. Seems most people, regardless of system and capabilities, are in agreement that there really is only 8ish functions tops that they use anyway so the 28 is bandied about more as a spec to say you're with the NMRA standards. No big deal to me, but that's why I asked. Just trying to separate the usable signal from the white noise. On the flip side, it probably wasn't more than a few years ago that sound was not an option and there wasn't any use for more than 3 or so functions... Regarding the part about automated crossing horns, I think that is more in reference to the A different "Which DCC System" question thread where it was brought up. I plan on operating very hands on railroad. We will occasionally set it up for NASCAR ops just so my son can watch it go (where crossing horns will be unused anyways), but most of the time it will be controller in hand and manually operated. I'm also aware of the stationary decoders, however that's more cash outlay for down the road. I'm a disabled vet with very limited fun money so if I can squeeze some of those noises out of the loco occasionally for now, all the better. My son is the main reason I'd do it and he's only 4 1/2 so the exact location they come from is fairly irrelevant at this point. I do plan on them in the future though.

 Mark:

I have actually looked at the Prodigy Advance2. I kind of determined that if I was to go MRC, then it would be the lowest level system I'd consider. It does look to have some features the base systems of both Digitrax and NCE don't, but is also a bit more expensive. My primary concern with MRC remains the computer interface, mostly Decoder Pro, but some pc ops on the signaling would be nice too. I understand that MRC dropped the prices on their interface significantly, but I'm still a little wary of the fact theirs is proprietary when a De facto solution already exists/existed. I've still not heard anyone who has used it speak on it, so that's still of some concern. It's just a way-down-the-road thing, but I remember working on Apples with "turtles" in school while they hauled in the Sony Beta players to show us film. It almost feels like MRC is bucking the pre-existing standard just to do it or possibly out of sheer arrogance. I wouldn't go out and buy a Beta player or HD-DVD (Sony won that round) player now. All that said, if I did come across a ripping deal on a Prodigy Advance 2 I'd probably grab it and cross that bridge whenever it came up later on.

 

Again, I do appreciate the clarifications and information. I think I have everything I need to proceed aside from the gumption to actually go ahead and jump. I'm to the point of over-researching so I keep talking myself into thinking on it just a little more.

James

[NSColsMP6]

frostymug

So it looks like this:

MRC - bad upgrade path, low amperage, no JMRI/Decoder Pro 

PowerCab - middle amperage, possible early circuit trips, possible issue with reversing sections

Zephyr - most amperage, limited functions, stationary controls, slightly more byzantine controls/programming

 I'm leaning towards the PowerCab, but I'm open and all ears if you have any responses to these concerns. I'm also open to compelling reasons to reconsider the MRC systems.  EZ Command/Dynamis is still out though, regardless.

Since my uncle has an NCE system I considered a PowerCab and opted against it because it's my understanding that you can't use it as a walk-around throttle.  Disconnecting it from the layout cuts track power.  Of course, if you use it with an NCE system that has a dedicated base station that wouldn't be a problem - I knew I'd want to be able to walk around my 5x10 layout - and much like you, my father and I have plans to connect my layout to his old 4x8 layout.  I also found the NCE "yard mode" appealing.

The Zephyr also wasn't an option due to my walk-around requirement.  I compared prices in LHS's (amazinly only one guy locally seemed to know anything about DCC - and he's a little biased toward Digitrax) and online.  Turned out that I was able to get a Prodigy Advance Squared (PA2) system for about the same cost as the others - and it had the "yard mode" I found appealing with NCE's solution.

There's a great chart on p.53 of the 11/08 issue of MR that mentions the PA2 3.5A rating compared to Zephyr's 2.5A and the NCE Power Cab 2.0A rating.  The PA2 also has 29 functions and true walk-around capability.

As for "upgrade path" issues, I've compared the price on Digitrax and MRC wireless throttles and PC interfaces and the MRC products seem to be less expensive than the alternatives. 

When I considered what I figured I'd want to be doing with my layout over the next few years my upgrade paths for Digitrax and NCE pretty much involved replacing my "starter system" with one of their full-featured systems (an upgrade easily in excess of $500).

The way I saw it, the PA2 system would allow me to get my feet wet with features comparable to Digitrax and NCE offerings way outside of my price-range at the starter-set price, if I decide later that I'm limited in some way by the PA2 system then I'm not worse off than if I bought one of the NCE or Digitrax starter kits and upgraded to one of their premium systems later.

[rrinker]

I dunno about the number of functions being debated as based on what the system of coice is capable of. Mine can do F0-F28 and I could care less. I've with Dave Bedard on that one, even with sound I am hard pressed to see a need for more than 8, let alone 28. Lights, whistle/horn, bell, light dimmer, mute/volume control. Automated blowing the horn for a crossing? Why? Have we become THAT lazy a society we can't press the horn button in the proper sequence (which mean seach one is slightly different - beats an exact canned playback every single time)? Chickens, cows, lumberyard sounds - there are some very nice STATIONARY sound decoders that you can place under your layout near appropriate structures that generate those sounds, and the sound will always come from the correct location.

 And I am a high-tech kind of person, latest computer gear, etc. I just don't see the appeal outside of the toy train market. I suppose if that gets new blood intot he hobby, provided they stick around long enough, then it's a good thing. It's just the appeal of older locos for me is not how they actually were highly technical and not primative compared to modern computers and so forth, but that there is a huge contrast - this does not mean a computer is not innvolved in my layout, but it doesn't run the trains. Sort of like those cartoons back in the 80's MR, where th eguy had a super click layout and this huge control console with 1 button that he pushed to make all the trains go. I'll run my own train, thank you, and let the computer handle the signals simply because I don;t feel like filling my house up with banks of relays to do it like the real thing.

                                  --Randy

 

[frostymug]

 Thanks for all the responses. I think I got most of the information I was looking for.

 In regards to ruling out the EZ Command, the primary reason I've done so is because the only ones I'm finding are in the 60-70+ dollar range. I think it would have no problems serving my initial needs, but at that price, it makes more sense to me to go with a more permanent and expandable solution. If I come across one closer to the $30 price, I'd have to reconsider, but that hasn't been the case thus far. The Dynamis is still out simply due to the exorbitant price of expansion.

Regarding the power capabilities and circuit tripping on the PowerCab, I'm really just going with what I've read on various forums. I thought that it seemed a little questionable that it would have issues with 3 or fewer locos regardless of grades, but I wanted to verify. I'm aware of how a reverse loop operates, I just had read that the PowerCab had some type of issue causing it to trip when a reverse loop was present or switched. Unfortunately, I'm only able to go off memory and the cryptic note of "pwrcab slow reverse loop trip" since I didn't write down the source to find it again. Appears to either be bunk information or not a problem though since nobody expounded on it. Just trying to do some due diligence.

I also suspected that 10-15 or so functions would be more than enough. Again, due diligence. The number of functions is tossed back and forth as a positive or negative depending on the defender's system of choice though, so I thought I might be missing something.

 Seems to not be disputed much that Digitrax does offer a better/more affordable upgrade path down the road. Everything else looks more or less equal. I guess, given the information I've dug up in addition to the responses here, it is going to come down to that upgrade path of Digitrax versus the ability to move around right out of the box with NCE as either should perform admirably. Matter of fact, it now appears that an upgrade, aside from a second throttle, may not be needed at all.

Appreciate all the information. I couldn't find any specific information in any manual or comparison on a lot of what I brought up so I really do thank you all. I'll go stew it over and lurk around some more now.

James

[rrinker]

 There is no 'chip' for Digitrax to get 28 functions. You plug in oen of the new DT402 throttles, you get up to F28. You plug in a DT400 or UT4 throttle, you get up to F12. There was one chip upgrade once years ago for the DCS100 command station to go from 8 to 12 functions, since then, there have beenno upgrade chips and no need for them. If someoen comes up for a command up to F40 using NMRA DCC packets, then you still need no chip upgrade with Digitrax, just a device capable of generating the F40 command. Keep in mind that with the on-screen throttles in JMRI, up to F28 has been possible for several versions now, even before Digitrax released the DT402 throttle.

                                   --Randy

 

[locoi1sa]

 While the Zephyr and the Power cab are great systems, but there are some things you have heard that needs to be clarified.

  I own an original version 1.1 power cab and when I stress tested it I was running 7 sound equipped and 5 non sound HO scale locos. The built in amp meter was showing 1.8 amps and I could have put more locos on if I had them. Reverse loops are controlled with a separate breaker and switch gear and not the DCC system. A reverse loop will trip any system if it does not switch or the insulating gaps are bridged. The Power cab also has macros for setting up turnout controllers from the throttle. That means you can set macro 1 to leave your round house and go to the other end of the departure yard with just a couple key strokes. The switches will be set for you. Functions to 28 is highly overrated. I rarely go above F6. F0 lights, F1 bell F2 horn are on separate buttons for ease of use. You can upgrade with a smart booster or a better idea is buying a Power Pro set and use the Power cab as a second throttle. Put the power cab plate on a little piece of track at the work bench and you have a programing station, wheel cleaning test track area away from the layout. The Power cab is tethered walk around to a 14 foot radius right out of the box. The Zephyr is panel bound. Both support a second throttle.

  Either system will serve you well as a start up.

       Pete

[Hamltnblue]

I agree. I would consider the EZ command for the 4x8 and upgrade when funds are better and the layout is larger.  As far as the powercab is concerned, it has more power than most will use. 3 engines on sound is no problem at all.  There's someone selling one for $130.00 shipped.  Maybe offer them a little lower since there's no hits yet.

http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13750

[cudaken]

  James, to be honest you have all the information you need, you just need to make the plunge! We are all going to you what we liked so we bought it. My self I love by Digitrax Super Empire Builder. Main this is the DT 400, love the ease of controlling 5 engines on 3 mains. But, I guess the $300.00 start up is more than you can spend. 

 I bought a Zephyr but never used it, friend brought is over and I audition it on my bench. It ran 6 engines 3 with sound with no problems. Had F control to either 12 or 15. (my SEB goes to 12) But, having used the clubs DT 400, still be land locked,harder to control 5 engines and with it being $160.00 plus $135.00 for a DT 400 that is $295.00 and the SEB was $300.00 I went with the bigger power supply.

 Both the Zephyr and SEB will control turnout decoders. I still throw mine by hand.

 Why are you so dead against the E-Z Command? I bought mine used for $30.00 with shipping and served me well for 3 years. Best part is it is so simple to use and the fact it cannot change CV's is it strong suite in many ways. Small Engineer cannot push the wrong button and change all the address of your fleet. It all so ran3 sound engines with no problem.

               Cuda Ken

[tstage]

Brace yourself, James.  You're in for a deluge of responses that will include a lot of personal opinions and preferences.  Either the Zephyr or Power Cab will serve you very well.

I have and like the Power Cab but the Zephyr has a better and more economical upgrade path.  The newer Zephyr should(?) now be outfitted with the 28-function chips.  The Power Cabs definitely do.

Tom

[frostymug]

Hello everyone,

 I'm returning to the model railroading scene after a 20+ year layoff. My son has decided he's outgrown Thomas and now wants little trains with no faces. I've finally decided on track, engines, and rough layout concept, but the world of DCC is still a little foreign to me. I've done the research and read all the manuals. Neither the PowerCab or the Zephyr seem overly difficult to grasp/control just from reading so I'm sure I'll be okay once I get hands on. We live in a fairly remote area with no train clubs or LHSs within 50 or so miles and those LHSs lean heavily towards R/Cs over RRs so that factor is nil and using them prior to purchase is near impossible. I've found quite a bit of information in researching this forum and others, but it usually devolves into very passionate (zealous?) supporters of one system over another getting into exchanges with denials of shortcomings of any system so I'm still halfway in the dark on the whole thing. I'm going to list some basics of my planned layout and what I've been able to perceive as potential issues and any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. This is gonna be long, but it should form a stronger basis for opinions and answers.

 Our layout will be in HO scale. The plan is to build a modular layout. This way I can start with a small 4'x8' loop and siding so we can get something going and my son does not drive me crazy or make his head explode from waiting. Initially it will be quite basic, but the plan is to expand with at least two, probably 3 or 4, more 4'x8' sections. Initially I will be using Atlas True Track, but plan to eventually tear that up and use the code 83 minus the ballast and replace with flex track where possible. Again, have to get something going fairly quickly. The general idea is to layout one run coming from a rural/mountainous setting hauling raw materials. This will be the initial module. Grades should be no more than 2.5% and locos in this section will only be hauling a few cars at a time. These will be brought to a medium sized switchyard where they will be set up to be picked up by the long haul line to take them to the docks. There will also be continuous lines bypassing the switchyard and coming back around prior to the docks to run a relatively hands free loop operation. Total operating engines will rarely, if ever, exceed 3 with possibly a couple others idling and making noises.

 Now, the questions...

 I need some help/info on deciding on a starter set. Money is limited to start with so anything beyond the beginner sets or possibly the Prodigy Advance is out of the realm of possibility for now.

 I have no initial plans to use JMRI/Decoder Pro, but I do find it intriguing and don't want to rule it out for future use. For this reason, I've taken the Prodigy line out of the equation. The seemingly limited/costly upgrade path of both the EZ Command/Dynamis and Prodigy Express also rule them out.

 Currently we have a P2K U30B with sound and DCC. All of our future engines will also be sound equipped. I know that sound draws more current. I've read that the PowerCab, while claiming to be 2amp, actually rates slightly lower. I can find no recent comparisons that may include any updated information. Nor can I find any way to guesstimate my power usage as most estimates are older and do not account for sound. Will the addition of sound and a 2.5-3% grade put a hurting on the PowerCab with 3 engines running, only one max ever being on the incline? If it will handle that, how about with a couple more sound locos idling? I've read that the PowerCab has a tendency to pop the breaker a little sooner so I'm concerned that issue may rise, if true.

 I've read that the Zephyr has a more limited amount of functions available. Having sound equipped engines, more functions are better, but I'm sure there is some break even point. Will the Zephyr limit the sound functionality in any marked way? I guess we'd occasionally like depot announcements and chatter, but cow/chicken sounds, etc would not be missed. I will eventually be getting a second throttle and understand the DT400 will give me more functions, but that is well on down the road.

 I've also read of the PowerCab having some issues with reverse loops. Is this the case? I don't plan on any initially, but I may later down the road.

 Of the PowerCab and Zephyr, how do each handle controlling switches and stationary decoders in real world ops? I will initially have hand throws, but, again, I may change later down the road. I'm not opposed to making an old fashioned switchboard either if that is a more viable/easy option, but being able to control them from the cab is appealing.

 I'm a little more in love with the controls of the PowerCab being hand-held and the cable should be long enough to reach all points of the layout, which will be a U shape with controls in the center once completed. I will eventually be getting a second throttle when my son is ready for control without direct and immediate supervision, but that is a point well on down the road, at least a couple years. The Digitrax system is highly touted for it's ability to be expanded upon. To me, the uninformed, it seems like the NCE system is also relative easily and economically upgraded upon. I also read where the PowerCab can be software updated at home whereas the Zephyr would need to be sent in for updates. Is this true? Honestly, other than boosters for different sections and the second throttle, I don't foresee any reason I'll be needing to upgrade to anything over one of the base systems. Am I on the right track here?

 

So it looks like this:

MRC - bad upgrade path, low amperage, no JMRI/Decoder Pro 

PowerCab - middle amperage, possible early circuit trips, possible issue with reversing sections

Zephyr - most amperage, limited functions, stationary controls, slightly more byzantine controls/programming

 I'm leaning towards the PowerCab, but I'm open and all ears if you have any responses to these concerns. I'm also open to compelling reasons to reconsider the MRC systems.  EZ Command/Dynamis is still out though, regardless.

 Many thanks, both for reading through this slop and in advance for any potential advice,

James