I'm working on an HO scale around the walls layout. One loop of track (nolix) is laid and wired, with some temporary flex where the diamond will be for the second loop of the twice around - some temporary continous running, and four staging tracks are in place. The DCC system is hooked up and there's magic in them rails! Both my P2K DCC/Sound diesel and the little Spectrum 2-8-0 that started it all a few years back are running great!
So the next step is to put decoders in the handful of dcc ready locomotives I've accumulated over the last two years. They are all HO diesels - P2K, Atlas, and one Kato. This is new for me, so I'm looking for advice/suggestions. Most of my purchases are over the Internet because my LHS is not so local.
1. It seems to make sense to stick with one brand and, from what I've read here, Digitrax would be a good choice. This would be just DCC - no sound. Make sense?
2. Researched on the Digitrax website and discovered two options: premium decoder vs. basic. It seems like the premium board replacement option is something I could handle - no intricate soldering, additional resistors, changing light bulbs, etc. Just follow the instructions to remove the existing board and replace it with the dcc board. Do I understand this right or should I stay newbie and go with the basic decoder option?
3. Order from a reputable online dealer who can confirm the locomotives that I have matched to the decoders that I think I need. (I bought my dcc system from Tony's Trains so they would be my first choice.)
Is it this easy or am I missing something?Thanks in advance for any advice that you can offer.
As a relative newcomer I'll take a shot.
1. Absolutlely makes sense to stick with one decoder to start with since it makes trouble shooting easier. Get a little experience then move on to other brands/models.
2. If your locos are DCC ready (which they probably are) they should have an 8 or 9 pin plug on the existing circuit board that a decoder can just plug into. Note for some decoders you may have to get an adapter harness but these are cheap. Fore xample my Atlas locos have an 8 pin plug on their board, I installed DH123 decoders using TCS harneses. I belive Digitrax makes decoders that already have the 8 pin plug.
3. Just like nay other purchase you make finding and supporting a reliable dealer pays off.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
1) Generally, yes (and my brand of choice is also Digitrax). However, I sometimes make substitutions for specific reasons. For example, I used TCS A6X's in my Genesis locos because at the time they had regulated function outputs that nobody else did, and the Genesis bulbs were notoriously sensitive.
2) You may hear from some folks who insist the only "proper" way to decoder a loco is to tear everything out and wire the same make/model of decoder into everything they own. I don't go to that extreme, and will simply plug an appropriate decoder into the factory board if that's an option. If it's not, my next choice would be a board-replacement decoder if someone makes one. With board-replacement decoders, do check carefully, though, as I believe I've run into circumstances where resistors have been required. With newer decoders that may no longer be true, but don't just assume!
3) I may get some flack for this, but I wouldn't depend on a dealer to do my research for me for a couple of reasons. First, a few decoders is small potatoes to most of these outfits, maybe not enough to make them really take the time to seriously consider your inquiries. This really varies from dealer to dealer, but I've found that it generally seems to get worse the larger the dealer is. Secondly, they all have their prejudices and business relationships, and at any given time the "advice" they give you may be more influenced by those prejudices and business relationships than by what's actually best for you.
HTH, Steve
Hi,
I'm in a similar situation as you, and have asked several related questions on this Forum. My DCC/sound equipped locos are all BLI, which were purchased that way. I am now buying decoders for my other 50 plus powered units, and have purchased several for the Stewart/Kato F units.
I chose NCE decoders for those locos, although I have a Digitrax system. As I understand, Digitrax, NCE, and TCS are the big players in the decoder arena, and you probably couldn't go wrong with either. However, certain companies decoders are more adaptable to certain locos. This is not to say other companies products won't work, just that some work better than others.
In my case, I am taking each loco - or groups of similar locos - and doing what research I can to get the "best fit" for each. And, for those locos that I had that were too difficult to convert - well they are gone.
One last point....... There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks that will respond to your Forum questions - but not all will have the same view or preference as to features or ease of installation. That is where you must decide upon what is most important to you and do accordingly.
Hey, for what its worth......
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
As noted, if the engines are fairly recent they probably have eight-pin receptacles, so you could use the decoder type that comes with the pins attached in one unit, rather than replacing the lightboard. Replacing the lightboard as you surmise is indeed easy, but not as easy as pulling out a dummy plug and plugging in a decoder.
I prefer TCS decoders, largely because they work well and are very easy to program - the instructions are very simple and clear, unlike some other decoder companies which give you a few basics and then tell you to go buy their manual or download it from their website.
That being said, if you do go for lightboard replacements, you could use the Digitrax DH165 series decoders that have a receptacle for their "soundbug" sound decoder attachment, so you could add sound later if you wanted to.
As for using the same brand for each decoder, it does give you an advantage as you get to learn how their CV's are best set for what you desire - if you want both headlights on full all the time, or want the one in the direction of travel to be bright, and the other dim, etc. - the settings will be the same for each decoder.
Plus with many online sellers you can get a discount if you buy five of the same decoders in one order.
Thanks for your responses. They are all very helpful. I have a follow-up question...
What are the benefits of replacing the circuit board vs. just installing an 8 or 9 pin decoder? Mentioned above is one benefit specific to Digitrax, the potential Soundbug upgrade. The plug-ins are cheaper and easier for me to install, but is there a downside?
Before you get a bunch of Digitrax decoders, try out some other brands and see how the engines run with them installed.
I had a bunch of DH123s installed, but have since replaced them with TCS T1, with the back EMF. I'm working on getting most everything switched out to a TCS back-EMF decoder. They have figured out the back-EMF settings better than anyone else. Digtrax has it in the 165 series, but I can't seem to adjust it (1024 steps of adjustment!) to match up with a TCS. TCS decoders would need bulb replacement in P2K engines, but it isn't very hard.
For a dealer somewhat close to you, try Enginehouse Services in Green Bay. They do a lot of DCC work. Shipping should be less costly than from TTX in Vermont. Hiawatha Hobbies in Waukesha also has decent prices on decoders. That is where I get most of mine.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
WSOR 3801 Before you get a bunch of Digitrax decoders, try out some other brands and see how the engines run with them installed.
When I researched. it seemed like Digitrax, NCE and TCS were equal in terms of positive comments on this forum, with none really better than the other. Why Digitrax? I could actually understand their website since they have a selection chart that matches locomotive manufacturer/model to their decoders. http://www.digitrax.com/decsel.php#HO
This is very helpful for someone like me who is new to all of this. (Though I didn't find anywhere that explained the difference between their premium vs. basic install recommendations?)
Then I figure I might as well buy them all at one time to minimize shipping.
WSOR 3801 I had a bunch of DH123s installed, but have since replaced them with TCS T1, with the back EMF. I'm working on getting most everything switched out to a TCS back-EMF decoder. They have figured out the back-EMF settings better than anyone else. Digtrax has it in the 165 series, but I can't seem to adjust it (1024 steps of adjustment!) to match up with a TCS. TCS decoders would need bulb replacement in P2K engines, but it isn't very hard.
Your comment "TCS decoders would need bulb replacement in P2K engines" is exactly what concerns me. Or Steve's comment "I used TCS A6X's in my Genesis locos because..". Mobilman's comment "certain companies decoders are more adaptable to certain locos". I don't have the knowledge/experience that all you guys have.
I have this fear of taking my first locomotive apart, putting it back together, setting it on the track, and... nothing. Or worse - a burning smell!
WSOR 3801 For a dealer somewhat close to you, try Enginehouse Services in Green Bay. They do a lot of DCC work. Shipping should be less costly than from TTX in Vermont. Hiawatha Hobbies in Waukesha also has decent prices on decoders. That is where I get most of mine.
Hiawatha Hobbies - My wife and I spent a weekend in Milwaukee last February and stopped there on the way home. Had quite a time finding the place since we didn't have a map and, as luck would have it, that was the day they were moving to their new location. The shelves were empty, everything in boxes and a crew loading a moving truck backed to the front door. So, could I just call, tell them what locos I have and get good results on their recommendations?
Or maybe I need to rethink my approach and do one purchase/install at a time until I get some experience. My nearest hobby shop is The Hobby Connection in Wausau. Do you (or anyone else) have any DCC-related experience with them? Would they offer good advice?
Thanks again everyone for all the helpful responses to my questions. Don't know where I'd be without this forum.
The only way to really gain this knowledge is by doing. And lookign at pictures, and then doing. We can talk about various decoders and where we used them for days and unless you have the exact same loco and memorize all the messages, you won't be any closer to gettign a functional install. Another good reason for favor TCS - they have a "goof proof" warranty, so even if your first one smokes because you messed up the wiring, they'll replace it, free.
I tend to not use board repalcement decoders, and avoid all POSSIBLE issues by repalcing the lights. For several reasons. One is that I am cheap, and a plain decoder with wires is always cheaper than the specialty shape ones meant to repalce an Atlas or Kato circuit board. I use LEDs because they will never need replacing in my lifetime and they do not get even warm so there is no chance of melting the shell. With DCC, when you turn on the lights, they get full power, all the time they are on - it's not like runnign in DC where most of the time you aren't anywhere near full throttle. By using LEDs, I can pretty much guarantee I won't have to be replacing anything for a good long time. And third, some of the circuit boards in some brands of locos are downright crazy, far more than just a basic diode contant lighting circuit. Who knows exactly how it functions - if I solder the decoder right to the truck pickups, motor leads, and lights, I KNOW the right wires go to the right places and there are no silly plastic caps to come loose or extra components int eh circuit that can affect motor operation. And did I mention, wired decoders are cheaper? I use TCS T1's or NCE D13SRJ - both these actually have a 9 pin plug and plain wires, so it is possible to swap out or remove the decoder without cutting or unsoldering wires.
The TCS web site has tons of installation pictures, the same things generally apply even if you use a different brand of decoder in the same form factor - ie the pictures of using a TCS Atlas board replacement are equally valid, at least from the mechanichal standpoimt, if you use a Digitrax Atlas board replacement decoder.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Many newer locos HO have the 9 pin JST terminal on the boards and some are board replacements as well as the 8 pin plug. Newer Athearn have the JST plug. Some Bachman need to have a capacitor clipped off the factory board so the motor will work right. Some Stewart locos need a particular decoder or you will have a hard time fitting the shell on. P2k you never know what board is used from the factory it may be an 8 pin plug or a board replacement style.
I have a mixture of decoders and have installed many for friends and club members also. Most of my decoders are TCS. I never had a bad one and I love the lighting effects and BEMF. I use and recommend NCE decoders for locos with ditch lights. With LEDs the timing and the dimming and brightness of the ditch lights look so real.
Like Randy has said, change out bulbs for LEDs. Beside never burning out they do not get shell melting hot like bulbs do.
I have installed Digitrax decoders for others but do not own any myself. I bought 2 plug and pray decoders that fried on the program track that Digitrax would not warranty. That kind of ticked me off to Digitrax and have not bought any thing from them since.
Motor decoders in my 70 non sound locos are TCS, NCE and Lenz. Sound decoders are QSI, Blueline, Soundtraxx and 1 Loksound.
TCS web site has great install pictures of many locomotives.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I use Digitrax most of the time myself. My decoder of choice for my HO locos is the DZ125. It's sized for Z scale so it can fit into a small space where space is at a premium and can also save you from milling out valuable metal weight from the frame. It works for me but may not work for others. I also have decoders from Bachmann (I got them for the cheaper locos that aren't going to have light effects and tight speed control isn't a problem), Atlas, Lenz, NCE and TCS. Most of these were given to me by other modelers who were somewhat less than pleased with them for one reason or another or just couldn't use them anymore.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
WSOR 3801For a dealer somewhat close to you, try Enginehouse Services in Green Bay. They do a lot of DCC work. Shipping should be less costly than from TTX in Vermont. Hiawatha Hobbies in Waukesha also has decent prices on decoders. That is where I get most of mine.
Here's an update on my situation...
We took a roadtrip to Wausau yesterday for some shopping and dinner. Stopped at The Hobby Connection and picked up two Digitrax decoders. (They only carry Digitrax and NCE, no TCS.)
Put the DH163D into a Proto 2000 F7A without incident last night. As has been stated many times, the hardest part was removing the body shell.
Took on the other installation today - a board replacement in an Atlas RS-3 with a DH165A0. The guy at the hobby shop convinced me to solder the wires on the tabs, instead of using those plastic tabs. Again, did so without incident. Success when the loco started moving, but wait - no lights. Searched the forum, and found this post.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/154378.aspx
Sure enough, there's a resistor inline with the LED. Removed the resistor and sure enough, needed to also reverse the polarity. Success again, but wait - forward/reverse and lights on/off are backwards. So I switched the wires from the motor and, of course I know now, this had no effect.
I learned about Normal Direction of Travel (NDOT) and CV29. The Soo Line ran their RS-3's with long hood foward, which was apparently not the norm. Does that sound correct? I hope so, because that's what I've got. Here's a picture of SOO 2380 approaching the lift-out down to staging, with the little "F" (almost in focus) and the headlight on!
What's next? Gotta get some couplers on these two, then a few more decoder installs. (Do I really need to drill and tap to put Kadees in that F7A? - how am I gonna do that?)
Thanks again for all the assistance.