I'm not familiar with the Dynamis controller, but I operate regularly on several Digitrax equiped layouts, one in particlar has all the turnouts controlled with stationary decoders. I find it very cumbersome because you have to push 3-4 buttons just to throw one switch or route.
Many years before DCC (in the 70's), I thought controlling the turnouts from a handheld would be great. I even developed a circuit that would handle 12 turnouts on a theathered throttle. But now that it is a practical reality, I find simple control panels much better.
I use a circuit that allows turnouts or whole routes to be selected with the push of one button. It uses lighted pushbuttons that then show which route is currently selected. Want a different route through a complex interlocking? Just push the button on the tower panel map and all the needed turnouts align.
The control side of what I use is way less expensive than stationary decoders, $3-$4 per turnout if your a good shopper.
Sheldon
I used North Coast Engineering's SwithIt stationary decoders on my HO scale home layout to control the Tortoise switch motors. Each SwitchIt can control two turnouts.
After a few operating sessions, it became apparent that using the NCE ProCab Radio throttle to control the turnouts was more trouble than it was worth due to the number of buttons that had to be pressed to change one. This is going to be true no matter which DCC system or which stationary decoder you use.
Practically every DCC system is going to require the following key presses, which will be labeled differently according to your particular system:
1. SELECT ACCESSORY (selects an accessory (stationary) decoder instead of a locomotive).
2. ACCESSORY NUMBER (the number assigned to the turnout you want to control.
3. 1 (FORWARD) or 2 (REVERSE) to actually change the turnout position.
I eventually wound up installing momentary toggle switches around the fascia to control the SwitchIt decoders because they are much more conveniient than the DCC controller. Now I can do it either way.
burke19I'm getting ready to start installing my tortoise slow motion switch machines, and have been debating whether or not to use DCC to control the switch machines, or just wire them to regular switches mounted on the fascia.
I think this comes down to a matter of preference, as well as how many others are going to be operating on your railroad. Right now I don't have any individual control panels, but I do have the Torti controlled by decoders. As a minimum, I think that I will have to have either a post next to each turnout with the turnout number on it for reference, or a small track diagram at each location showing the track arrangement.
Once one gets to the point that the track diagram is required, it seems to be a small leap to install push buttons or whatever one's method is of controlling turnouts. Unfortunately, then you end up with multiple control panels and the associated wiring, along with the need for some minimal carpentry skills to make the panels look half-way decent. The plus side is that if you decide up front that you want to use the conventional methods to operate turnouts, then you might as well do away with the need for turnout decoders.
I don't know the capabilities of the Dynamite system you have, and I'm not familiar with the Digitrax product, however the NCE system does have the capability of throwing multiple turnouts with, I think, only three keystrokes. These would be "macro'; enter the macro number, and press enter. The macro is something you program in to route a train through multiple turnouts to get from A to B. For example, if you have a train entering a yard throat, you can create a macro to route the train from the yard lead into whichever yard track you want without individually operating each turnout along the way.
The important thing with stationary decoders isn't the speed of their use, it's the simplicity of their wiring.
If you have a centralized dispatcher, you should consider stationary decoders for every switch thrown by the dispatcher. If you use DCC and stationary decoders, you only need a single 6-cond. wire to the dispatcher's desk to throw every equipped switch on the entire RR.
If you don't use them, then you need to run multiple wires from every switch machine on the RR to the dispatcher's desk. This gets expensive and time consuming.
OTOH, if you don't have a dispatcher and you have total walkaround control, then you might as well just buy some DPDT toggles and mount them on the layout fascia local to the switch.
At my club, we use DS54's, DS64's, and DS44's (all Digitrax products). The DS54's and DS64's can do many things, and have push button control if wanted. The DS44 is the low cost option, and can be routed through a DPDT for local control (which we have done). There's this one area we have where the switcher operates in a small pit, but his connecting yard tracks are 12 feet away. And if he's working the job solo, it was a big pain to have to keep ducking under the layout to throw a switch. I installed a DS44 for this little yard, and now the operator is able to run around his cut of cars without ducking under. So sometimes it is worth it.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
On the little switching layout I'm workign on now, straight DC toggle switch control. On my planned future 'big one', it will be with DCC, liekly NCE Switch-Its or Switch8's because they are inexpensive and work well. But NOT for the purpose of controlling turnout position via the throttle. I will have loco panels with buttons, but even those will feed through control devices (Hans DeLoof LocoIO most likely - I use Digitrax). The reson for this seemingly overly complex method is twofold. One, it actually makes things EASIER - each control panel will connect to the layout with nothing more than a 6p6c phone cord (Loconet) and a tap to a 5V power supply. No miles of control wires. Same with the Tortoises - the SwitchIts and Switch8's will be located near the Tortoises they drive and connect to a seperate pwoer district for stationary decoders (hooking them to the main track bus int he area is a bad idea - if you run a switch and short out, then you'd have no power to throw the switch to clear the short!). Second reason for this design, I have dreams of building an actual CTC panel, although even without that I can have a virtual one in JMRI. By having encoding devices in the control panels driving decoders connected to the switch motors, I can easily set up for any kind of operation I want. With the computer OFF and no dispatcher, the signal generated by the encoding device can signal the SwitchIt directly and operate the turnout as if it was wired right to the buttons. With the computer on and the dispatcher position filled, that interaction can be disconnected for mainline turnouts unless the DS switches a particualr one to local control. Someone runnign a train can push buttons on the local panel all they want but nothign will happen as the commands get 'swallowed' by the computer.
I've actually mocked this up and tested it, and it's not nearly as complicated as it sounds. In fact back when i tried it I uncovered a bug in JMRI that made it not work quite the way I expected. That was fixed a few versions back and now it works as intended so I'm ready to go whenever I get to the point where I cna build that 'dream' layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I use both panel switches and DCC with the DIgitrax DS64 stationary controllers. Switches are cheaper and more conventional. The stationary controllers shine when you are not next your control panel, add routes and add status indicators. With routes I can select one switch, throw it and I have one route which flips 13 different turnouts the correct direction. In my yards each track has a route adress. If I want the train to go to that track I either flip the panel switch (no more diode matricies) for the route or select the route with DCC (if I am not standing near the control panel).
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Having grown up in what my mother used to define as, "Genteel poverty," I tend to shy away from anything that smacks of expense. I also have a deep distrust of black boxes that I don't understand - especially when I can do the same thing with simple non-electronic components that I DO understand.
I only power switch points that have to be operated from both Main and Zone panels (and can also be controlled from immediately adjacent to the switch with a plug-in switch key if not adjacent to the Zone panel.) Turnouts which lead to industries or which otherwise have to have a human present to couple cars, hostle locomotives or do other hands-in-the-machinery things have ground throws - electrical switches recessed into the fascia, connected to the points by a simple cable linkage.
No way can I see anything that requires pushing buttons on a device that looks like an entertainment system remote being more convenient - and it certainly isn't realistic. The prototype and era I'm modeling moved switch points with big, heavy levers and muscle power, not with a hand-held anything.
Just my . Other opinions are sure to differ.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
tomikawaTTNo way can I see anything that requires pushing buttons on a device that looks like an entertainment system remote being more convenient - and it certainly isn't realistic. The prototype and era I'm modeling moved switch points with big, heavy levers and muscle power, not with a hand-held anything.
... and those mini toggle switches are really big heavy levers for HO scale people - about five feet long!
I might even insert one and a workman in a hard to see area just for a laugh. (Lots of stuff like that on the layout). Better yet Nikoli Tesla, a switch and a mini coil. Now THAT would be fun.
Back on topic, I have to agree as well. If you're right there anyway, why push several buttons and temporarily lose control of your locomotive when you can use one finger to flip a mechanical switch? It just seems ungainly to me.
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
Chuck,Don't ya' kinda find it ironic that you're saying that you have a "deep distrust of black boxes you don't understand" by typing it on a computer full of black boxes and posting it on the internet by way of thousands of other black boxes? Of course, that's an assumption on my part. I suppose it's possible that you wrote out your post in longhand, and then mailed it to a friend or relative that has a computer and then they typed it & posted it for you?
Just kiddin', Chuck. But it tickled my funny bone, and I just had to share.
BTW, it can be more convenient if other solutions are impractical. For example, what if you didn't have room for a fascia or a control panel? Or if you had a modular layout? Or what if you just wanted to sit in one of several places (easy chair or workbench, etc.) and run trains vs. walkaround? I know I'm just throwing things out there as generally I agree with you (local control over throttle controlled) on this one. But there are some limited situations where throttle controlled switches are more more convenient than locally controlled switches (either electric or manual).
larak,If you're referring to Digitrax, that was a problem with the DT100, 200, and 300 throttles (that one would lose control of the train while throwing switches). The UT1 and DT400's do not have that problem. I assume that is also not an issue with NCE, MRC, or Lenz, but I claim ignorance of their operation so I don't know for certain.
The best thing about decodered switches is that you don't have to be near them to throw them, and one can do that with a PC or a wireless throttle (and therefore from anywhere).
Paul,
On a large layout how does one remember the number of each of lets say 100 turnouts to be able to throw them from "anywhere"? I will admit up front that is a skill I lack. I once thought throttle controlled turnouts would be great, until I tried it. I do see the value in it for modular groups where panels are less practical, but one still needs to know what numbers to punch in? Signs? Labels? Maps?
Like Chuck, I use manual controls (home made ground throws in my case) for all turnouts that would be manually operated on a similar prototype. Only my mainline, signaled territory which would have tower or CTC controlled turnouts are electric and are set up for both local tower (small tower panel on facia, usually only 4-6 turnouts max) and central or "master" panel control.
Sometimes you have to use things you distrust, because they're the only game in town! Judging by the number of OOPS and other internet glitches, anyone who fully trusts Mr Gore's wonderful invention is very trusting indeed.
One trick I've used, for mounting electrical switches as ground throws, was to mount slide switches immediately adjacent to the headblock ties, linked with a piece of wire. Looked rather like small relay cases, in a location where such relay cases would have a logical reason for existence. All that was required was a little care installing the final layer of ground cover to keep it out of the switch mechanism.
Anyone want to compare prices, cheap slide switch and a paper clip vs fixed decoder + switch motor?
For throwing twin-coil machines, I use hot probes and studs - even cheaper than electrical switches, and take less panel space.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - frugally)
tomikawaTT One trick I've used, for mounting electrical switches as ground throws, was to mount slide switches immediately adjacent to the headblock ties, linked with a piece of wire. Looked rather like small relay cases, in a location where such relay cases would have a logical reason for existence. All that was required was a little care installing the final layer of ground cover to keep it out of the switch mechanism.
This is what all my ground throws are! - less than $1 each!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Paul, On a large layout how does one remember the number of each of lets say 100 turnouts to be able to throw them from "anywhere"? I will admit up front that is a skill I lack. I once thought throttle controlled turnouts would be great, until I tried it. I do see the value in it for modular groups where panels are less practical, but one still needs to know what numbers to punch in? Signs? Labels? Maps?
It isn't that difficult. You can either label them on your control panel or I have a picture of my layout with the switches and routes numbered. It's on a laminated card. You have to label the switches on your control panel somehow, this is no different.
The green are the route numbers and the yellow are the individual switch numbers. I generally just use the route numbers since I am ultimately trying to get a locomotive to a particular track and each track has a route number.
Sheldon,At my club, we have a Brother P-Touch label maker. We also have a fascia, and I've applied these labels near each switch with the switch's ID on it (like "E-12"...the "E" is for Electronic switch as compared the "manual" throw DPDT toggles). We also have a control fascia that will also have the switch ID's on them once I get around to it. Each local freight has a route map on the clipboard that not only tells them which industries are where, but also switch ID's.
But really, the switch ID's are part of qualifying on the RR, and Operators should know what they are. We did try to make it as simple as possible by taking one Division and starting with "E-1" and going around to "E-27" in order. The other Division starts at "E-53" (because the layout's incomplete), and goes up to "E-71". As an Operator, one should know approx. which switch is which as that's part of the "game" for Operations.
We've been running Operations for years now, and I have to say that remembering the switch ID's is not a problem for most Operators (especially with the labels). For example, if I tell a guy to hold at "E-6", they are going to know where that is. There's been some confusion from time to time, but they are usually only off by a number or two (calling for E-11 when they want E-12, etc.).
So I guess the answer is, yes, we use signs, labels and maps.
WRT manual switches, at our club all switches are Tortoise thrown. We like their reliablity and their internal contacts. Those that aren't "E" switches are thrown with a simple DPDT bat-handled toggle.
With our DCC system, we will have local push button control of "E" switches once I wire them up. This feature can be turned off so that they must be thrown by the PC (AKA the Dispatcher).
Chuck,I agree with your line, "Sometimes you have to use things you distrust, because they're the only game in town!" DCC controlled switches are the only game in town to get the operations we want at our club for our mainline switches. Having a Dispatcher's desk on the 2nd story and over 100 feet away and being able to control every mainline switch on the RR with a single 6-cond. cable and a click of the mouse is so amazing to me, considering that at our old ca. 1953 layout it was a trunk line of cables thicker than my wrist! (no foolin'...it was a mess, but it worked)
Um, not to be too argumentative, but not every switch has a relay cabinet next to it. I mean, you were pounding the "realism!" hammer as reasons not to use throttle-controlled switches...but what about looks? Having your table top with slide switches at every manual switch...how realistic does that look?
I agree that your method is cheaper, but it doesn't sound like it looks very realistic.
Paul3I agree that your method is cheaper, but it doesn't sound like it looks very realistic.
Paul, I use slide switch ground throws as well. Once one decides to use ground throws, as opposed to switch machines or choke cables, some sacrifice in appearance is a given. The very small handle of a sub mini slide switch is better looking and less obtrusive then a Caboose ground throw, and it has reliable electrical contacts. While not shaped like a ground throw, the slide switch handle is at least much smaller than things like the Caboose ground throw, and more the size of an actual ground throw, making it very unobtrusive. It also easily operated with a small screwdriver or pick used for uncoupling.
It only takes me two wires per route to extend my turnout controls to alternate locations and since most routes involve multiple turnouts, the number of wires (or cat 5 cables actually, # of routes divided by 4) is not all that much. Wire is still cheaper than black box gizzmos and my label maker keeps them well indentified like your turnouts.
But the biggest point of my method (or Chuck's) is that I can fix mine without hoping company X still makes black box Y in 10 years.
Again, I agree is some instances, on some layout designs, throttle operated turnouts are a good idea. They are just not the only good idea. I firmly believe there is no one perfect control system. Every layout and every desired operating scheme requires selecting different combinations of the available systems and/or inventing new ones. Cost, desired operation, life expectancy, planned obsolesance, layout size and type, layout scale and much more should all be taken into account.
Paul3 At my club, we have a Brother P-Touch label maker. We also have a fascia, and I've applied these labels near each switch with the switch's ID on it (like "E-12"...the "E" is for Electronic switch as compared the "manual" throw DPDT toggles). We also have a control fascia that will also have the switch ID's on them once I get around to it. Each local freight has a route map on the clipboard that not only tells them which industries are where, but also switch ID's. But really, the switch ID's are part of qualifying on the RR, and Operators should know what they are. We did try to make it as simple as possible by taking one Division and starting with "E-1" and going around to "E-27" in order. The other Division starts at "E-53" (because the layout's incomplete), and goes up to "E-71". As an Operator, one should know approx. which switch is which as that's part of the "game" for Operations.
At my club, we have a Brother P-Touch label maker. We also have a fascia, and I've applied these labels near each switch with the switch's ID on it (like "E-12"...the "E" is for Electronic switch as compared the "manual" throw DPDT toggles). We also have a control fascia that will also have the switch ID's on them once I get around to it. Each local freight has a route map on the clipboard that not only tells them which industries are where, but also switch ID's.
Paul, on this topic of "qualifying" on the RR, this seems no different than expecting operators to learn ANY control system - an idea I agree with - to a point. While I know the layouts of several friends very well, I still don't see myself memorizing turnout numbers, heck, I don't memorize phone numbers, never have.
You are involved in a club, I understand that, I did the club thing years ago. Clubs are a different animal than home layouts. I will tell you plainly, when I respond to posts on this board, I am not thinking in terms of club layouts unless the post specificly addresses them.
I currently belong to a round robin group, but no clubs. I doubt I would ever get involed in a traditional club again. So please keep in mind my perspective is for my layout, only "used" by me and those I specificly invite - no open "membership" at my operating sessions.
And, I don't think you are argumentative, you put forth good points, are polite and reasonable.
Sheldon,How big are your slide switches? I've seen some real tiny ones on PC boards and the like, but how small are yours? You make me wonder a bit about their size and strength when you say you can use a pick or a screwdriver to operate them ('cause it's either small or strong, rarely both).
While I agree that even the N-scale Caboose ground throws are oversized for HO, at least it's recognizable as a ground throw. I'm not so sure I could say that about an above table slide switch. And I don't have a problem with that, really. I just kind of find it interesting where folks draw the line for realism. They refuse to use Tortoise machines because they aren't realistic for their RR but have no qualms about putting unrealistic slide switches above the table. Just strikes me as odd, I guess.
Oh, I can see your point about slide switches, but if I were to go through the effort of making a layout look "right" to me, I think I'd junk the idea of ground throws all together. I confess I use several on my home layout as I just can't work up the gumption to convert these to under the table mounts of various ideas. But if I had a zillion bucks and unlimited time (or at least a reasonable budget and the ability to get my rear in gear on the many, many MR projects I have lined up), I'd at the very least convert to under the table mounts for switch controls and have working targets on each switch per the prototype.
I don't know if you can tell, but I'm not a big fan of routes. My interlockings are not that complicated, and my yards are best left un-routed. The chance of throwing a switch under a car seems to be greater with routing in yards, and mainline interlockings, even at my club, generally only need three switches thrown at the max, and two (or just one) is far, far more common. Routes just seem to be a needless complication to me so far. I reserve the right to change my mind later, but I just don't see the appeal at the moment.
I agree about the comments you made about components always being available vs. "black boxes". In fact, this was my primary argument against DCC back in the 1990's. However, what changed my mind then, and still holds true to me today, is that DCC is an NMRA Standard. They just don't change that often. At my club, we're using DS64's, DS54's, and DS44's (each controls 4 switches). They stopped making DS54's a while back, and I'm not concerned as the DS64's do just about everything the DS54's did and they are $20 cheaper, easier to program, etc.
But say Digitrax went under tomorrow, and my club needed stationary decoders. I could still order stationary decoders from Lenz, NCE, or Team Digital, and they would all work with my Digitrax system.
I totally agree with that last paragraph in your first reply that starts with..."Again, I agree is some instances, on some layout designs, throttle operated turnouts are a good idea. They are just not the only good idea."
WRT "qualifying": Well, there has to be some kind of "memorizing"...otherwise how do you remember how to run a train? I think it's a little easier to memorize switch numbers on a DCC layout than a DC layout because one doesn't have to memorize where the blocks are and how to turn them on and off. With DCC, once you learn the throttle, there isn't much left to memorize (if you're just an Operator and not a DCC layout "SysOp"...I guess that's as good a term as any). So memorizing switch numbers isn't that big a deal.
For example, at my old club's DC layout, there were two divisions (25' x 50' rooms, really) that each had 50 mainline blocks. Each block had a number, and operators not only needed to know what the block was called, but also where it started and where it ended on the layout. Then there was the yards and engine terminals, not to mention the local freight cabs, etc. There was a lot to memorize at the old place because each Operator position was different (well, the cabs were the same in each Div., but you know what I mean). I'm guessing there was over 250 individual blocks at our old layout, counting every yard, terminal and mainline block of every size and description (and even that may be conservative).
At our new club, you have to memorize how to use the DCC throttle basics, like speed and direction, control of functions, control of mainline switches, and how to turn the layout on and off. Total newbies pick that up rather quickly, especially with a throttle like the DT400. After that, they can roam as they please on the RR but they need to remember where the switches are and what they are numbered for them to get around. Again, it seems to come quickly as repeated use tends to sink in, eventually.
I get the point about home vs. club layouts, and I try to make sure I label the conversation as referring to one or the other (or both). I've had two home layouts that I either built or added on to (with my father), and I've been a member of two different clubs (with three different layouts). I also have been a guest operator on several other home or club layouts over the years, and have visited many more. Not too shabby considering that I've only been "serious" in the hobby now for 19 years. I like to think I can bring both the "big club" experience as well as the "lone wolf" (or almost alone) experience to the forum without forgetting either.
Not everyone is cut out to be in a club as it does require no small amount of personal sacrifice to be a successful member of any organization. And I'm not talking about cash & time (although clubs take those, too), but one has to have the feeling that the "club" as a whole is worth one's time and effort to put up with the inevitable you-know-what that happens. I have been able to do some great and outstanding things because I'm a member of my club, and made some life-long friends in the process. But I've also been at times angry, depressed, shocked, and chagrinned at the club while also finding there are some real pains-in-the-butt among humanity that just happen to be model railroaders. But that's true of life in general, I suppose. I don't regret for a moment my membership in my club, but there are days when I wanna just shake certain people until they see reason.
"Polite and resonable" with "good points"? Who, me? Whaddaya trying to do, ruin my reputation? Um, actually, thanks for the compliment.
OK, a little more explaination for clarity. The slide switches I use have handles that are 3/16" x 1/8" x 1/4" tall. They travel about 1/8" when switched. Only the handle is above the roadbed. I drill a hole through the handle perpendicular to the travel and make a "Z" shaped spring from music wire that connects to the draw bar. The switches are DPDT.
My goal was a ground throw with DPDT contacts that would fit between tracks on 2" centers. They work well.
I was not always a fan of ground throws, but once walk around became practical, and I operated a few layouts with ground throws, I came to like the idea. I often found control panels for areas like yards or industries to be confusing - hard to relate which turnout on the diagram was which one on the layout.
I will say this, just like lots of other aspects of controlling model trains, you either like the idea of ground throws - or you don't.
So my layout is planned around some basic standards. All industrial or yard trackage is close to the edge (2' or less) and easily reached. Mainline turnouts are are electric and controlled by small tower panels, usually only 4-6 turnouts or routes max, most are less. This makes it easy to identify panel to layout. Again, my goals include signaling and a central panel (for simplified CTC operation) as well as operator controlled walk around.
While the control wiring system I use CAN do very complex routes like yards, I'm with you, I don't like that either. I do however route select my staging yards as they are part of the "main line".
But what I do have on the main line is, for example, a typical two crossover interlocking on double track, pushing one button to select crossover "A" to the diverging route, also returns crossover "B" to straight, and vise versa. And pushing one button for either straight route returns both crossovers to straight. The buttons are lighted and light based on the route selected and are dark for non selected routes.
These pushbuttons can be repeated on as many control panels as desired since they are simple N.O., LED lighted buttons. Wiring is minimized by placing the control circuits near the turnouts/tower panels and only running needed repeater wiring to additional push button stations - no different than motor control centers in every factory in the world - and not much different than mounting stationary decoders and wiring them to the tunouts and the data bus and facia control switches.
Only because you brought it up, one quick comment about the DC club with so many blocks - It didn't have to be that way - really! But I will agree, as I have said before, DCC is often the perfect choice depending on the desired operational goals.
As for clubs, I enjoy our round robin group, it has the social benifits of a club without the dues, politics, compromises, etc. And, I want my layout to be MY layout. I help others in the group but really don't ask for or accept much help in return. For me the satisfaction of the hobby would be lost if I was too dependent on others.