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can i run a dc engine on dcc?

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can i run a dc engine on dcc?
Posted by bootleg_conductor on Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:23 PM

HI i was wondering can i run a dc engine on a dcc layout i heard u can, is this true? and if it is which dcc controllers allow it and which dont thank u very much

" the power behind you is stronger then the power against you" (i think like a train weird)
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Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:03 PM

bootleg_conductor

HI i was wondering can i run a dc engine on a dcc layout i heard u can, is this true? and if it is which dcc controllers allow it and which dont thank u very much

The answer is no, there's a constant voltage on the track with DCC, so a DC engine will take off with no speed control.

What you may have heard is the other way around. Certain DCC locos will run on DC if they have the right type of decoder installed.

Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by river_eagle on Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:52 PM

TomDiehl

bootleg_conductor

HI i was wondering can i run a dc engine on a dcc layout i heard u can, is this true? and if it is which dcc controllers allow it and which dont thank u very much

 there's a constant voltage on the track with DCC,

True
 so a DC engine will take off with no speed control.
False

The power applied to the track is AC, and unless the DCC system allows for Analog operation (DC) the DC loco will just sit there and hum.

What you may have heard is the other way around. Certain DCC locos will run on DC if they have the right type of decoder installed.

This is true to a point, Most DCC eqpipped loco will operate on DC track power, unless that option is turned off, some older decoders from soundtraxx and others would not run on DC (Analog) power.

 A couple of DCC systems that do allow operation of analog locomotives are Digitrax, and Bachmann EZ Command,

Bachmann Dynamis, MRC Prodigy, and NCE are among others that DO NOT allow analog loco operation. 

When in doubt, rule #1 applies  Central Missouri Railroad Association cmrraclub.com
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Posted by TomDiehl on Friday, March 27, 2009 6:01 AM

river_eagle

TomDiehl

bootleg_conductor

HI i was wondering can i run a dc engine on a dcc layout i heard u can, is this true? and if it is which dcc controllers allow it and which dont thank u very much

 there's a constant voltage on the track with DCC,

True
 so a DC engine will take off with no speed control.
False

The power applied to the track is AC, and unless the DCC system allows for Analog operation (DC) the DC loco will just sit there and hum.

The power applied to the track on DCC is actually a pulse train, which can be read with an AC voltmeter.

Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, March 27, 2009 6:31 AM

I've got a Lenz system, one of those which does allow operation of DC engines on the track with DCC.

Yes, it works, with a number of restrictions.  However, it's a poor option, put in to help people with the transition from DC to DCC.  Engines run this way typically run about half as fast as they normally would, and they do give off the same annoying hum whether running or not.

On the Lenz, and I think on other systems which allow this as well, a DCC engine is controlled as Engine #0.  This simply applies the appropriate signal to the track, changing the "waveform modulation" so that the DC engine sees an imbalanced AC signal, which turns the motor over like a DC voltage would.  This signal is applied to all the tracks at once, so all DC engines will respond.  Thus, you're back to "running the track" which is the way DC normally works.  You can consist 2 or more DC engines, and they will all respond about the same way.  (You don't "consist" them in the DCC sense, but rather just couple them together.)  "Forward" and "Reverse," though, will not be the normal DCC conventions.  "Forward" might make your DC engines run clockwise around a loop, and "Reverse" would make them run counter-clockwise.  DCC engines will continue to behave normally while you're doing this, by the way.

You can't consist DCC and DC engines together.  It just won't work.

This technique, by the way, will not work with a DCC auto-reverser.  The auto-reverser units depend on the way DCC engines respond to polarity changes, which is not the way DC engines respond.

When I started the transition to DCC, I had a response that I think is pretty typical.  Suddenly, this approaching-retirement guy was 8 years old again, having one heck of a good time playing with trains.  I ran out and got decoders for everything, so I could run all my engines on DCC and enjoy them all this much.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by bootleg_conductor on Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:15 AM

i also only plan to run on dc engine at a time. i was wondering if i can run both dc and dcc i only want one dc engine on the track at most. but will it effect the other dcc engines?

 

" the power behind you is stronger then the power against you" (i think like a train weird)
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, March 28, 2009 10:52 AM

bootleg_conductor

i also only plan to run on dc engine at a time. i was wondering if i can run both dc and dcc i only want one dc engine on the track at most. but will it effect the other dcc engines?

 

 Yes but only if you are running a lot of them. The "zero stretching" to run that one DC loco alters the DCC waveform and has the effect of reducing the speed that the signals are transmitted. In other words, it takes longer for the commands to get sent to the loco decoders. Running 1 DC loco and 2 or 3 DCC locos, you won't notice anything. Runnign 1 DC loco and trying to run 30 DCC locos, peopel will notice lags in the response, say from when they press the whistle button til the loco makes the sound, or they change the speed and the loco responds.This is one of the reason most clubs disable the capability to run DC locos if they use a DCC system that has that capability. There are other reasons for turning it off, scrambled decoders and runaways being the two main others.

                                        --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by bootleg_conductor on Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:03 AM

i have a 4by 8 layout the most i will run is 3 idividual trains with the exeption of an a and b unit for 2 of the three so most i will have is a 5 at most not all moving though

 

" the power behind you is stronger then the power against you" (i think like a train weird)
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:13 AM

 I don;t think you'll have any control issues, but keep in mind the other things that have been mentioned - most DC locos will not run anywhere near their 'normal' speed when operated as address 00 in DCC. Most will make annoying buzzing sounds. Some if not most can damage their motors if left sitting or run at slow speeds for extended periods. And should you have any with a coreless motor, those types of motors will quickly be damaged it put on DCC track with no decoder.

                                       --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by richg1998 on Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:31 AM

It is a moot point now but I use to do that with a MRC 2000 DCC system that had three throttles. Throttle 1 was for DC locos. I would use #2 for a DCC loco and #1 for a DC 0-8-0 pusher. Bring the pusher up behind a freight while moving, couple up, watch the coupler slack and stop at the top, uncouple the pusher, back it down the hill to a siding and switch off the siding. It was nice to have simultaneous control of both locos.

It is more difficult to do that with my NCE Power Cab and a DCC powered pusher. The NCE only has one throttle. The NCE does not allow controlling DC locos.

From what I can see, not many people use pushers.

Oh yes, I had derailments sometimes but those are prototypical though the five finger crane is not.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by bootleg_conductor on Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:30 PM

yeah the H3LL with that. i will just pop a chip in there i know how to wire one to a non dcc train, its easy really.

" the power behind you is stronger then the power against you" (i think like a train weird)
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Posted by richg1998 on Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:55 PM

bootleg_conductor

yeah the H3LL with that. i will just pop a chip in there i know how to wire one to a non dcc train, its easy really.

 

A chip will not do it. You need a decoder that has chips on it. Big Smile

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by bootleg_conductor on Monday, March 30, 2009 11:22 AM

richg1998
A chip will not do it. You need a decoder that has chips on it. Big Smile

 

sorry that is what i ment Laugh

" the power behind you is stronger then the power against you" (i think like a train weird)

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