Planning first real layout

[1911 guy]

Alright, new guy here.  I've enjoyed trains since I was a kid (who hasn't) and now I have a son who is REALLY into trains.  So now I'm planning a layout in the basement.  I'll provide as much detail as I can so you can answer my questions better.

1) The track plan is from a Kalmbach book, labeled the Nantahalla and Smoky Mountain railroad.  I believe it's #29 in "101 track plans for model railroaders".  I've enlarged it 50%, making it a 6X12 table.  Curves are also enlarged to 27" radius vs. 18".  Elevations remain unchanged to limit grades.

2) We are planning to move in the next two years due to school district issues and I'm building the layout kinda-sorta portable.  Benchwork will be replaced by folding tables with plywood spanning between tables to tie everything into a solid unit.  Attaching plywood to tables via bolts and wing nuts under the foam base, layout can then be unbolted and lifted off tables and moved.

3) I'm using Atlas code 100 Flex-Track, it's readily available nearby if I want/need more.

4) I plan to wire it for dc initially for simplicity of one train operation for my son.  Would like to upgrade to DCC later, probably a couple years (he's five right now). 

 

So now with the questions.  The train sets I had as a kid were all sectional track and when it became seperated at any point in the oval the train would stop.  This flies in the face of what I know of dc wiring (which isn't much) since the train should have conducted current from the hot rail to the ground rail and the motor should have turned.  Am I wrong in thinking this way?  Can I basically have a section of track isolated at both ends and the train still run?  Example, a "dead end" track.  Do I have to jumper the hot rail to another hot rail or can I just power one side, ground the other and expect the train to run.  I think so, but I'm asking the guys who actually know.  I'm thinking both of dead end track and isolated power blocks so a short doesn't affect the whole layout, just several feet of track. 

 

Secondly, power supplies.  Since I am planning on going DCC when my son is old enough to use it, is there a power supply that can be used for dc control now and DCC later? 

 Third, my wiring proposal.  Each 4X6 section of plywood will have its own power distribution, for the portability reasons mentioned above.  I plan to run heavy guage wire to a connection box.  From there run feeders to the rails.  Two questions regarding this.  First, is it a problem to have feeders up to 2 feet in length?  Secondly, will this wiring setup be compatable with my proposed switch to DCC if and when the time comes?

 

Thanks for being gentle with the new guy... 

[rrinker]

 It sounds like your plan will work. Power and insulate BOTH rails, rather than use a common rail. This will be completely compatible with switching to DCC in the future. Use LOTS of feeders - do not rely on rail joiners to power the next track section. You can break things up with insulated joiners and power them through a switch to create 'dead' sections to park a train or loco. This too is compatible with future conversion to DCC - in some cases with DCC you still want the ability to shut off pwoer to certain sections - hidden staging and engine terminals come to mind. Feeders up to 2 feet long should be OK depending on what size they are - 2 feet of #22 feeder wire is probably too small for HO. However wire larger than #18 is tough to solder to the track. You might run the heavy wire from the junction bix between sections under the track or perhaps in a cross pattern underneath to minimize those feeder runs. What I am trying to sya is - at the side where it joins the next module, you have a terminal strip or heavy duty conenctor of some sort. From there, the wire goes to the other side of the module (even the end two - I would asusme the center module would already have this because it would ahve two terminal strips, one on each side). In the middle, or wherever is makes the most sense to create the shortest feeders, run another pair of heavy wires at right angles to the ones goign across. Attach feeders from the nearest track to this.

                                               --Randy

 

[Texas Zepher]

1911 guy

The train sets I had as a kid were all sectional track and when it became seperated at any point in the oval the train would stop.  This flies in the face of what I know of dc wiring (which isn't much) since the train should have conducted current from the hot rail to the ground rail and the motor should have turned.  Am I wrong in thinking this way?

No you are not thinking wrong as technically the power should be reaching the loco from two ways (around each direction of the loop).  However what is happening is that the sectional track was separated at two points in the same rail.  Hence no power to the loco.

The problem here is that people take sectional track apart and put together again and again.  Each time the rail joiners get weaker and loose.  When they are loose they do not conduct electricity and hence the problem you had.  Replace all those joiners and it should work with a single break in the track. 

Can I basically have a section of track isolated at both ends and the train still run? Example, a "dead end" track.

You mean not connected in a loop?  Absolutely.   Depending on the turnout type the dead end track might also be electrically dead.

Do I have to jumper the hot rail to another hot rail or can I just power one side, ground the other and expect the train to run.

Yes, but once again it depends on the brand of turnout being used

I'm thinking both of dead end track and isolated power blocks so a short doesn't affect the whole layout, just several feet of track.

Ummm this is a DCC thing.  On DC if they are connected to the same cab the short will still effect everything under control by that cab.  So if there is only one controller the whole layout will still be effected by the short. 

Secondly, power supplies.  Since I am planning on going DCC when my son is old enough to use it, is there a power supply that can be used for dc control now and DCC later?

The real answer is yes, but if I understand what you mean the answer is no.   There are DCC units that can power DC locomotives (on channel zero), but you do not want to do this.  It will eventually destroy the motor in the DC loco.   The reverse is that a normal DC controller can be used to power a DCC control unit at a later time, but the DCC unit still needs to be purchased and many of the entry level ones come with a power supply included anyway.  There is one exception (see below)

Side question - why is it that you think your son is not old enough to use DCC?   My first DCC unit was purchased specifically for the children.   Also related to the question above, there is a DCC unit by Digitrax called the Zephyr.  It has what is called a "jumper throttle"  this is where one hooks an old DC controller up to the Zephyr and it can be used for a throttle.  So if the issue is that your son can only turn the knob of a DC controller to make the train go - that can be added to the DCC Zephyr and he is controlling a DCC train in the exact manner he controlled the DC unit.

Each 4X6 section of plywood will have its own power distribution, for the portability reasons mentioned above.  I plan to run heavy guage wire to a connection box.  From there run feeders to the rails.  Two questions regarding this.  First, is it a problem to have feeders up to 2 feet in length?  Secondly, will this wiring setup be compatable with my proposed switch to DCC if and when the time comes?

Simple - no problem and yes it will work.

[1911 guy]

Thanks to both of you.  I figured my questions would be pretty basic, but I've never done a real model railroad before and didn't want to start putting things together only to find out it wouldn't work the way I'd arranged things.  Nice to know I'm not a complete blathering idiot.  Well, usually not. 

Texas Zephyr, I'd kinda imagined most DCC controls to be not necessarily complicated but more involved than "push button, turn knob, train goes".  I admit I do like very much the idea of independent control and the other options DCC offers, but wanted to avoid anything that would make it complicated or "un-fun" for my son.  Seeing as you have experience with the kids and controls, what are the ups and downs of them using a DCC system? 

Thanks again 

[rrinker]

 Actually, DCC can be a simple or as complicated as you like. As mentioned in another thread - they only thing you HAVE to set is the locomotive address - all that extra stuff and fancy effects you cna do with DCC can wait, none of it is required by any means. It's just there when you get to the point that you are ready to move to the next level of understanding. So basic operation (assuming a full-blown DCC system that can select any valid address, vs the one button to a loco type like the Bachmann EZ DCC), is pushing a button and typing in the number of the loco - the obvious thing to use for an address is the road number since there is already a decal on the loco for that. The Bachmann is even easier, from that respect. Push a button, turn the knob. Literally.

 With good solid wiring, a layotu will work fine with DC or DCC. It's when substandard wiring, which often seems to work ok with DC, is used, that DCC conversion down the road becomes a chore. Even if you aren't goign to use DCC from the outset, wiring it properly now will pay dividends later. And make the DC oepration more reliable now. Nothing ruins interest faster than having to go around and push the trains all the time because they stall. Might as well just use Brio trains and push them if that's the case.

                                                 --Randy

 

[Texas Zepher]

1911 guy

I'd kinda imagined most DCC controls to be not necessarily complicated but more involved than "push button, turn knob, train goes".

Well, a DCC controller does that.  I have one that is push button up train goes faster, push button down train goes slower.      It can also have a whole lot more buttons too.  Press button #0 headlamp comes on, button #1 bell rings, button #2 horn toots, etc.

but wanted to avoid anything that would make it complicated or "un-fun" for my son.  Seeing as you have experience with the kids and controls, what are the ups and downs of them using a DCC system?

Well the first big gotcha is having responsible children.  It is really easy to play Gomez Adams and have horrendous head on collisions.  Similarly if they like to just push buttons at random I suppose they could accidentally reprogram the locos to a point they don't rung.  I did not have either of those problems with my children.  If the children take things apart it could be easier to ruin a decoder equipped locomotive.

A big positive is that children don't have to wait to take turns.  We used ours on a club layout so they could both run simultaneously.  That instead of each of them running for 30 minutes, they both got to run for 1 hour.  If there is only one child this would not be a big deal.   If the children have problems putting locomotives on and off the track this solves that.  The locomotives can just stay on the track.

An Atlas DCC throttle.

Here is the DCC system that my children used (obsolete by today's standards).  It is now used for Christmas tree duty.  Each slider controlled a different train so each child had their own slider throttle.

 

[Doc in CT]

 Being in the process of designing and building a "real" layout for the "first" time, I gave a fair bit of thought to wiring.  While I respect those in the hobby who love the challange of block controls and panels of toggle switches, getting it right can be daunting on anything but a simple layout.  DCC seems to provide a more simplistic solution that can be expanded out later.  It is about the only way to run more that one loco on the same piece of track as the same time and have them do separate things.

I agree that good planning will go a long way, substituting power districts for blocks, decent bus wiring and lot's of feeder cables, etc. But not having to worry all the time about common rail or polarity is a big plus (my first track plan had two shorts in it, thank goodness for planning software).

(You mention breakup the table into transportable pieces, seems to me DCC makes that a lot easier to create modular wiring).

Cost is an issue however, even a Zephyr has a $150 starting point. And adding throttles and power boosters quickly makes that seem small.  But then, a decent power "pack" with a separate throttle is not pocket change.  (And a someone pointed out, the DC unit can act as a throttle for DigiTrax products.)  As to DCC equipped locos, they are not that much more expensive and drop-in decoders are in the $20 range.  Conversion can be time consuming and but not too expensive (but then having a $150 older DC model as scenery is a bit over the top). 

Anyway, I would suggest doing some more research into DCC.  The Alan Gartner ( http://www.wiringfordcc.com ) as suggested above is a good place to start.  I also come across http://www.awrr.com/dccintro1.html  as a starter site.  www.tonystrains.com also has information and how-to advice.

Best advice is plan for the future and then invest in it.