I have been so close for some time to up grading my DCC system. My current bench has around 200 feet of rails. Command station is a mer E-Z with a MRC 8 amp booster. I seem to have plenty of power.
I asked Ken (the owner) about the Digitrax computer interfaces but he did not have one. Then I started asking questions about the Zepher (it all so came up I will be building a bigger layout in the new house) and the Empire Builder. Guy named Don (not sure if he is a silent partner or just helps out like I did) asked me how big the new layout will be. If I get the house I want the bench will be around 19 X 19 and I hope to have 5 main lines all around 65 foot. With spurs and branch lines there could be around 400 feet of track.
At that point he told me I did not want a Zepher or a Empire Builder, I need to start with a 20 amp power supply and started to go on. My eyes started to glazes over and told Ken I call you Friday for a list of what I will need and the part number for the interfaces.
Now, am I missing something here? Is not the strong point of Digitrax the fact you can add to it?
What is the 20 amp power supply he told me I need to start with, I don't think it is a booster.
He all so said I did not want the Zepher or Empire because I want to add throttles? Something about using the throttles as the command station with the 20 amp thing?
Reason for the Zepher, use it as the desk control, add walk around throttles. Use it 2.5 amp power supply say for 2 of the main lines and 8 amp booster for the other 3 lines.
Empire builder, has the better throttle and 5 amp booster. It with the 8 amp booster should power 5 mains with say 20 engines. That is figuring 5 lines with 4 engine constants.
What am I missing if anything? I must add, if I get the other house all the main lines will not come on line the same day.
Confussed again, Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
the 20 amp power supply, just powers up your boosters, it can handle input power for up to four boosters, might be nice to have down the road, but overkill for a single
command station/ booster unit.
the Zephyr is 2.5 amps right out of the box, enough for about ten active sound locos with room to spare, can handle ten seperate active address, and ten throttles.
you can add wireless, computer interface, extra boosters, jump throttles, and can run as a booster/autoreverse/throttle only if a SEB or SC is operated as the command station.
base unit has 8 functions, page mode programming, and is expandable.
the functions expand to 12 when using a external throttle (UT4, DT400, Decoder Pro throttle via computer interface.
The SEB bumps you up to 5 or 8 amps onboard, the DT400 throttle, 22 active address, and 22 throttles,
what you lose is the programming track feature, but I you have the PR3 programmer, it takes care of that, and again wireless addon is plug and play and can be ordered as a option right out of the box,
If you have the 8 amp SEB or SC, that's where the 20 amp power supply comes into play, the smaller 3 and 5 amp power supplies just won't cut it.
I like to think of the SEB as an upgrade add-on for the Zephyr, you get the extra brains, horsepower and a throttle, wireless if you want it, at a lower price than the SC, and your Zephyr is still in the loop.
The SC is everything all rolled into one, full programming, 120 locos, 120 throttles, 5 or 8 amp versions, radio as an option. The SC is ready made for club type operations.
Additional boosters are also available, and could be added in as needed.
I personally prefer two 5 amp boosters over one 8 amp, or three 5 amps over two 8 amp, or even four 5's over three 8's, but other people may opt for other set ups, 8 for the main, 5 for the yard.... it's all up to you there.
Long story short, you can start with a zephyr and build up to meet your needs as required, or go full guns right out of the gate, with the Super Chief supercharged system.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the MRC 8 amp booster can be used with the Digitrax system as a raw booster, no loconet connections, but as a simple track power amplifier.
I would agree. Twenty amps will start and run a 7000 BTU air conditioner. What would you run with so much power? Twenty amps will run three full lighted passenger car consists plus another 12-15 sound equipped engines. Are you likely to have that much power demand at any one moment in time?
These guys must be thinking in terms of DC, maybe even AC and O gauge. For HO, especially DCC, you need top quality voltage getting to all the powered rail segments or districts. That means a couple or three boosters, maybe, a 12 gauge bus, and lots of soldered 20 gauge feeders (short ones) and soldered rail joiners. If the voltage drops are minimal, that is what you want. High amps is just a waste, and it will require lots of expensive breakers to keep the amps from coursing through the rails when there is a short.
I won't go into more detail than that because this isn't my strength, but I think three or four regular advisors here will agree that a few well-placed boosters augmenting your Zephyr will do nicely. Even a Super Chief with 8 amps is going to be too much if it can't be broken down over such a lengthy track system.
Ken, lets talk when you get a chance. Sorry I missed you on Wednesday, was putting boys to bed and did not hear the phone. Bottom line is that a Zephyr will easily power what you are running now. You could continue to run your MRC booster as well if you wish? In the future additional DB150 boosters can be added if and when needed. The number of amps you will need has much more to do with how many trains you want to run at once than the size of the layout. I agree with the others, 20 Amps is way over kill. The k-10 layout is what, 4000 sq feet? At any given time they have 15 to 20 double headed trains running at once, so 30-40 locomotives running at once. If I recall correctly it is divided up amongst 6 DCS100/DB150's? So that layout is run under the control of a single DCS 100 with a total possible output of 30 amps of boosted power. This is actually way more of a system than is actually needed to accomplish this.
Here is what you do.
1. Either stick with what you currently have, or get a Zephyr, UT4 and UP5 face place or two.
2. Do some rewiring of the layout to break it up into protected power districts.
3. As future plans dictate add more power to the system. Based on today's product range I would say adding a Super Chief later and making the Zephyr a yard throttle/yard booster and using the expanded command station capability of the chief. In all likelihood this will be plenty for the new planned layout. If not a DB150 could also be added.
But, who knows what the Digitrax range will have in it in a couple of years, things may change? First step is to see if the Zephyr does anything for you right now in the current location. For that we can use my system when I next come over.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Unless you intend to run 8 or 9 fully lighted long passenger trains with sound on each the Zephyr and your 8 amp booster should be enough. 20 amps! Geezzz! You can weld with that much power! One of my friends has a large HO layout with 4 or 5 mainlines, several yards and I don't know how many spurs that goes through three rooms. It makes my 8 x 10 look like a 1 cent postage stamp! He runs the whole thing with a Zephyr with a second Zephyr (throttle on it doesn't work) acting as a booster. That's a total of 5 amps running up to 10 trains at once with 2 to 3 locos on the heavy trains (35+ cars). He was the one who sold me on the Zephyr. Sounds like somebody is trying to get a paycheck at your expense.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I've got a Lenz system myself, so I've just got academic interest here.
Suppose you want a Digitrax system, but one thing that's important is a walk-around throttle. The Zephyr is fixed-base, right? And you would need to buy an add-on throttle at extra cost?
How does that configuration compare to say, the Empire Builder? If you went straight to the EB, what would the cost difference be? What other advantages would the EB give you? I'm thinking about things like separate programming track, more power and a larger locomotive stack, maybe?
My Lenz system certainly cost more initially than a Zephyr, but for the money I got a walk-around throttle, 5 amps and a 32-loco stack, plus a separate programming track output. The control bus for plugging in additional throttles uses commercially-available DIN jacks, so I was able to string throttle ports all the way around my layout at a cost of less than a dollar each.
As for that 20-amp supply? Maybe if you're running G-gauge on an acre of garden railroad, but most large clubs don't even need that much. That 8-amp booster you've already got should be more than you'll ever need.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Ken, in a nutshell they are - nuts.
If you had a hanger size layout, but only ran 2 trains at a time, a Zephyr would power it. The physical size of a layout has little to do with how many amps you need powering it. If you had some sort of crazy 4x8 where you coudl ahev 20 trains runnign at once - a Zephyr would not be enough. You do not need the Digitrax 20 amp power supply and the four 5 amp booster it would power for your layout, not yet anyway. I hope to have a layout someday that needs all that, as probably do you, but for now, the Zephyr is fine. You can add the extra stuff when and if you need it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Oh, and if you like the DT400 throttle, you can buy one of those and plug it in to the Zephyr. Park the Zephyr near the yard and have the walkaround for other locations.
Parts you need to have the computer interface are the PR3 and PS14 power supply. And a piece of track. And a piece of wire to connect the PR3 to the piece of track.
Thanks guys, so I am right in thinking a Zepher or SEB would be a good starting point.
As Don took over the conversation Ken the owner did get a sick look on his faces. Like I said before, I don't think Don is a partner of the shop, just some free help like I was when I had the time. From is point of view, I see what he was thinking. 19 X 19 bench, over 400 feet of track so this guy wants the best of the best! He all so knows I have some PCM engines, makes him think I have deep pockets.
SEB is $279.99, Zepher is $159.99 plus $15.00 for face plate and $59.99 for a cheap hand held for $234.98. So for $45.00 I get 2.5 more amps and a better throttle. I forgot, I would need a extra face plate with the SEB, other wises I still be stuck behind the desk, so make that $60.00 more for the SEB.
Simon, looking forward to seeing you and the boys again. Ken knows you are helping me and said I am in good hands.
Thanks again for all the help.
Not as confused Ken, posting again.
cudaken Thanks guys, so I am right in thinking a Zepher or SEB would be a good starting point. As Don took over the conversation Ken the owner did get a sick look on his faces. Like I said before, I don't think Don is a partner of the shop, just some free help like I was when I had the time. From is point of view, I see what he was thinking. 19 X 19 bench, over 400 feet of track so this guy wants the best of the best! He all so knows I have some PCM engines, makes him think I have deep pockets. SEB is $279.99, Zepher is $159.99 plus $15.00 for face plate and $59.99 for a cheap hand held for $234.98. So for $45.00 I get 2.5 more amps and a better throttle. I forgot, I would need a extra face plate with the SEB, other wises I still be stuck behind the desk, so make that $60.00 more for the SEB. Simon, looking forward to seeing you and the boys again. Ken knows you are helping me and said I am in good hands. Thanks again for all the help. Not as confused Ken, posting again.
With the SEB, comes with a UP5 faceplate, and there are two jacks on the front of the booster,you will use one to connect the UP5, and you can connect the throttle into the other one.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_seb_adv_set.php
you will, also have to get a 5 amp power supply the PS515 (not Included) which will add another $40/50,
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_ps_ps515.php
a PR3 and seperate power supply $80 for Page mode (seperate program track) programming,
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_compint_pr3.php
and a cable to connect the UP5 panel, 10 bucks or so.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_up5.php
the Zephyr price included the power supply, and also has the programming track capibilities.
http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_basic_set.php
Both good, but the price difference is more than you are thinking.
I have to agree with the others. I would not put much faith in anything these guys told you. There is no way I would ever use a 20 Amp power supply. If you ever really need that much power it would be much better to get it with 4 x 5 amp power supplies each with their own booster unit. The booster units could easily be hooked (added to) to the Digitrax Zephyr unit. And, by the way, they could be added over time as need dictated.
And you are right. Power supplies are just that. They supply power. Boosters are what convert that power into a DCC signal for the track to use. A Zephyr with its 2.5 Amp power supply combined with your existing 8-amp supply and a booster (DB200, controlled by the Zephyr) would work as you described. However personally I would add some sort of power isolator (like the Digitrax PM42, or CVP zoneshare) to divide that 8 amps up into smaller pieces. Like one zone per mainline loop or something.
Also don't forget the Zephyr has two "jumper" throttles. This is where you can use any standard DC controller as a DCC throttle.
The back of my brain is reminding me there was some limitation with the Empire Builder.. but I cannot bring it to the front of my thoughts just now. ...
The computer interface on the Digitrax units (MS100) just plugs into the loco-net bus. So it works the same on all the Digitrax units.
If you're getting the Super Empire Builder remember to keep a notepad around to record your CV settings as the SEB has no readback capability. One of the selling points of the Zephyr for me was the readback. I can place a loco on the program track and in just a couple of minutes read every CV I need to see. With the SEB you're blind.
Ken, there are only two good things about the SEB: first is that is has 5 amps (but you have to purchase the 5 amp power supply/wall wart that it needs...it isn't included in the base price). The second good thing is the marvellous DT400 throttle with its two encoder knobs that you twirl to get trains to move.
However, it is blind. It can talk, sing, dance, do the dishes, but it can't see where to put the dishes. You have to put the dishes away for it. IOW, you must remember your decoder CV settings. When you access them, the display only shows a "00" value. It is a drawback, for sure, and one that could be forgiven in a system as ancient as it now is. The Zephyr is much cheaper, you can add a DT400 for whatever bucks, and you can add a booster here and there as you need them (plus a power supply for each booster...don't forget!). But it will also tell you immediately that you dial in a CV what the last entered value was.
-Crandell
cudaken I have been so close for some time to up grading my DCC system. My current bench has around 200 feet of rails. Command station is a mer E-Z with a MRC 8 amp booster. I seem to have plenty of power. I asked Ken (the owner) about the Digitrax computer interfaces but he did not have one. Then I started asking questions about the Zepher (it all so came up I will be building a bigger layout in the new house) and the Empire Builder. Guy named Don (not sure if he is a silent partner or just helps out like I did) asked me how big the new layout will be. If I get the house I want the bench will be around 19 X 19 and I hope to have 5 main lines all around 65 foot. With spurs and branch lines there could be around 400 feet of track. At that point he told me I did not want a Zepher or a Empire Builder, I need to start with a 20 amp power supply and started to go on. My eyes started to glazes over and told Ken I call you Friday for a list of what I will need and the part number for the interfaces. Now, am I missing something here? Is not the strong point of Digitrax the fact you can add to it? What is the 20 amp power supply he told me I need to start with, I don't think it is a booster. He all so said I did not want the Zepher or Empire because I want to add throttles? Something about using the throttles as the command station with the 20 amp thing? Reason for the Zepher, use it as the desk control, add walk around throttles. Use it 2.5 amp power supply say for 2 of the main lines and 8 amp booster for the other 3 lines. Empire builder, has the better throttle and 5 amp booster. It with the 8 amp booster should power 5 mains with say 20 engines. That is figuring 5 lines with 4 engine constants. What am I missing if anything? I must add, if I get the other house all the main lines will not come on line the same day. Confussed again, Cuda Ken
Ken, I just purchased a NCE Power Pro cab system with 5 amp booster and power pack( tehered), PLUS an MRC 1300 model power pack to run my accesories, got the whole deal for $300 on Ebay, BRAND NEW IN THE BOX!
I love it!
Works great!
I also picked an MRC 8 amp booster if I need it, but may sale it later on.
NCE has computer interface and is highly recommended by Joe Fugate.
I took his advice and got one, and am I glad I did!
TheK4Kid
Is it the Digitrax Super Chief that gives you CV readback along with basically everything else the Empire Builder has?
How about support for function controls? Early on, one of the starter-set limitations was not supporting some of the higher function numbers. Now, with sound everywhere, some manufacturers are putting out sounds in the F20's, which many of the relatively new systems don't support.
TheK4Kid Ken, I just purchased a NCE Power Pro cab system with 5 amp booster and power pack( tehered), PLUS an MRC 1300 model power pack to run my accesories, got the whole deal for $300 on Ebay, BRAND NEW IN THE BOX! TheK4Kid
What exactly did you purchased, is it a NCE PH Pro with a Pro Cab or an NCE Power Cab, both units are in a different ball game ?
Jack W.
MisterBeasley Is it the Digitrax Super Chief that gives you CV readback along with basically everything else the Empire Builder has? How about support for function controls? Early on, one of the starter-set limitations was not supporting some of the higher function numbers. Now, with sound everywhere, some manufacturers are putting out sounds in the F20's, which many of the relatively new systems don't support.
On a Digitrax system one can access F0 to F28 with Decoder Pro, the forthcoming DT402 will also be capable of F0 to F28. My NCE Power Cab is capable of F0 to F28 inclusive there is only the "Option Key" to program for the feature. I did not bother to enable this gadget as for the time being there is no sound decoder worthy of the name supporting F13 to F28 with useful sounds.
Cudaken, I have great respect for you and wouldn't presume to tell you what to do but IMO about the cheapest way for you to go at the moment is to get the Zephyr and use it with your 8 amp booster. You'll have more than enough power and you'll have the CV readback as well. You can always add a DT400 or DT402 later. The Zephyr will handle up to 10 trains with multiple loco consists. I don't know why you'd want to run more than that at once. I have my hands full with 4 trains.
What if the purchaser doesn't want to use a computer connection? I don't relish the thought of having to depend on records stored on a computer that could crash for any number of reasons.
Besides, you can easily run 4 locos with the Zephyr alone. I've had as many as 8 rolling, which still required some 0-5-0 action to keep them spaced, for the few minutes I had them going. 4 had sound, 4 did not.
jeffrey-wimberly What if the purchaser doesn't want to use a computer connection?
What if the purchaser doesn't want to use a computer connection?
That's like buying a car without doors. Sure, you can still drive it, and sometimes it might even be fun. But when the conditions are less than ideal, you'll sure wish you had them.
jeffrey-wimberly I don't relish the thought of having to depend on records stored on a computer that could crash for any number of reasons.
I don't relish the thought of having to depend on records stored on a computer that could crash for any number of reasons.
Backups, man!
Blank CD's are pennies each. Pen drives are given away as trinkets, and if you look you can get a good, brand name hard drive for less than ten cents per gig. Anyone who puts important data on a computer and doesn't back it up is a fool.
Steve
Edit: Fixed spelling
Ken:
You can put a 100 amp power supply on your booster and it will not increase the current level above what the booster is rated for. A 20 amp power supply is overkill and wasted money. There is no advantage to using it. It will NOT put 20 amps on your track with any booster or command station.
The Zephyr is actually a better command station than the Super Empire Builder but is lower power. Power needs are determined by the number of engines and lighted or other power using cars, not by the size of the layout unless you have a monster like the K10.
The decision is, of course, yours, but I recommend you start with the Zephyr and if you find you need more power you can add a SEB later and use the DB150 as a booster and get the DT400 in the process. The Z may be all you need. If you do think you need 5 (or 8) amps, then I would get the Super Chief. It has a better command station than the SEB.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I am out of town on a business trip right now, but when I get back will be spending some more time with Ken. I'll summarize here what I understand his needs to be, based on our conversations and physically visiting his layout room.
1. The first and most important thing was to make the layout electrically more reliable and stop it eating decoders. We have made good progress towards this with a bit or re-wiring as mentioned in another thread.
2. Ken is a rail-fan. By that I mean that his layout is configured in a series of loops that allow him to sit back, relax and enjoy watching lots of train activity. Ken would like to be able to continue with this, but can see how having walk around capability would enhance enjoyment by allowing more actual operation on the layout.
3. Power is a concern. We can rattle on as much as we like about amps and power needs based on number of locos, etc. but I think Ken needs to see a command station in action to prove to himself that he does not need an 8 amp booster to keep it all running.
4. Future plans are a consideration. Like many of us, Ken has a dream about what his next, and greatest layout will be like. Understandably anything he gets now, he wants to be able to either accommodate future plans through sensible upgrade and addition.
5. Budget is a concern. Like many of us in this day and age there are budget constraints on this.
Yes the Zephyr is a nice solution, but there are questions about its output (I don't personally doubt it will run the layout, but Ken needs to be convinced). Further more it does not provide the desired addition of walk-around capability without the addition of an extra throttle. Adding a throttle moves it up closer to the SEB in price range. So, at some point I am going to take my Zephyr, DT400 and UT4 over to visit so he can get some first hand experience into the performance in his setting.
davidmbedardCudaken, I have great respect for you
???????????????????????????, is it I am to stupid to give up Jeffery?
Dave, boy you seem to hate MRC power booster don't you! If Simon had not came over I would be on your side by now after $120.00 in deep fried decoders. But the one small gage bus wire was a big problem.
Now as far as do I think I need 8 amps, NO I don't. Reason I bought it was because it at the time was the only booster I knew would work with my E-Z command 1 amp power supply and was less than the E-Z booster with only 5 amps. Being into stereo gear and cars, 99.9% more power is good if under control.
Jeffery, as far as a computer crash, I have had a few. I have my on line computer I am using now, one back up desk top computer and a old lap top, neither ever go on line. Plus I use thumb drives as extra back up, 4 gig thumb drive is only $20.00 now and they will hold a lot. When the first computer crashed and burned, I learned to back up the back ups. Lost some sweet car and dogs pictures I can never replaces.
As far as what I want, Simon 1966 summed it up very well. I am now bless in two ways, have one of the best LHS in the US (weak on DCC) with in 2 miles and a great DCC smart train friend with in 10 miles.
Simon, I now know 2.5 amps will run what I have now. If I get the Condo and build the new bench I want 5 mains with 20 engines max with 5 constants. For that I will need some extra amps.
Jeffery, if you get the chances to use or see a computer interfaces like the PR3, you will understand why CV read back is not a concern.
Looking forward to seeing you again Simon.
Cuda Ken
Funny...This sounds like the same line of bull I got when I called Digitrax for advice on picking one of their systems. Told me I needed to spend around $800 for their "starter" system.
What the heck were they trying to sell you? The Radio Super Chief, top of the line set, isn't $800.
There are always unscrupulus dealers out there just trying to make a buck, there were some peopel in the LHS one time who drive 3 hours to get there because the shop near their house sold them a radio Super Chief to run a simple 4x8 layout. People like that are a blight on the hobby and make it tough for the reputable dealers.
Notice most of us are trying to get Ken to buy their LOWEST price system, because it will meet his current needs and be easily expanded for his future plans, with no throwaway components.