Did the quarter the test the other night. I left the quarter on the rails for 2 minutes, booster never shut down!
Add breakers? Or just buy a driffrent DCC system?
Ken
I hate Rust
Ken,
I think it's time to move up to the new DCC system. I know that Simon will do a good job talking you through the workings of the Zephyr.
My ...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Springfield PA
Did the booster fail or the wiring and track? Try shorting the nbooster right at its terminals. If it don't shut down there, contact the manufacturer.
Martin Myers
davidmbedard I strongly suggest you go with a system that will serve you well. Ive mentioned this in the past, but it has fallen on deaf ears.
I strongly suggest you go with a system that will serve you well. Ive mentioned this in the past, but it has fallen on deaf ears.
Dave, it never went on deaf ears. I just need to see for my self that the booster was not shutting down, which I have now. I like the idea of having more power than I need, after all there is a reason Digitrax offers system with 8 amp boosters. If 8 amps in it self was the problem then why does Digitrax sell them? 8 amps is 8 amps no matter who make the booster. I just need to keep it under control.
Simon 1966 and I where talking about it tonight on the phone. Next test is to hook the booster to my test track and see if it shuts down. Simon is all so going to do some research on the booster it self.
Remeber Dave, if the booster is defective does not mean you are right. It just means I have a efective booster. When I was selling on E-bay for my LHS I sold a new in the box Zepher, when buyer got it, it was defective and had to go to Digitrax.
Cuda Ken
Yes, try it with a test track to see if it really is a defective booster or somethign lacking in the track wiring. If it shuts down with nothing more than some short wires to a section of track, the booster is functional and there is too much loss in the wiring, keeping the load below the trip point even with the quarter across the rails (or a derailed loco). That could mean right up to 7.9 amps going through the short, if the breaker doesn't trip til 8 amps. However, if the breaker in the booster is defective, then no amount of heavy duty wiring is going to save you.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
For what it's worth, I'm with Betamax on this one. Still, test the booster right at its output terminals, and then move further and further down the line.
Can you run trains where you're putting the quarter? Suppose you're running a train there and then you put the quarter on the track. What happens?
I would use a clip lead with a pair of alligator clips instead of a quarter, by the way. If you've really got 8 amps there, putting a quarter across the top of the rails could weld the quarter on, or at least pit the rails. Connect the alligator clips across your track bus below the layout - same thing electrically, much less potential damage.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yes, the first step is clearly to short the booster right at the terminals. If it trips off there, then the problem is in the wiring. The real purpose of the quarter test is to test the wiring, anyway. If the the booster is not at fault, then failing the quarter test generally means either the bus is not heavy enough, or there are not enough feeders. Or, there is a poor connection somewhere along the way. By the way, in my opinon, any of these things could (and would) have caused the problems that led you to get the (unneeded) 8A booster in the first place. When you find the root source of your troubles, I think you will find a lot of your troubles go away.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I had a long chat with Ken about this last night, and at some point in the near future will be visiting Ken to see what I can observe. First step is undoubtedly to determine if the failure in short protection is the booster, or some quirk in the wiring? Based on my conversation with Ken, I have a fairly good idea as to how we can break down the wiring to see where the trouble lies, if in fact it is a wiring issue. I'll probably also take my Zephyr over, to see how it handles the layout. Anyway, one way or another we will get to the bottom of this thing and get Ken back up and running safely
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Simon,
You are 'Da Man' - One of the best thing about hobbies is getting folks together!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I am very happy to report that Ken's MRC booster does in fact shut down upon a short as it should. In previous threads Ken has talked about his 3 main lines, A, B and C. When all three were hooked up, the booster did not shut down correctly. In particular, his new C line would very nicely cook the quarter. Having tested the booster not attached to the layout we proceeded to isolate his three lines and found the culprit. A thin piece of wire connecting the power bus from one line to the other. Replaced that with a thicker gauge and the quarter test now works all over the layout. Hopefully this will be the first step in eliminating some of Ken's decoder issues.
It was enjoyable seeing Ken's layout in person. Ken has added to his layout over time and you can see a tremendous improvement in modelling skills as he has grown in the hobby. The newest part is really coming together well, with some carved rock faces, nice grade transitions and some interesting industries.
Ever had bad luck turn into good luck? My wife car today started having problems, starter would not engage at the gas station. She finally made it home, I went out and same thing, engine would not turn over. If finally did start and took it to my local repair shop to drop it off. As luck would have I was going over to Simon's today, but it was going to be a while before I could get a ride home. So I called Simon to let him know I could not make it. He was so kind to offer me a ride home, and take a look at the track as well.
First we pulled the bus lines off the booster and jumped it at the terminals, it shut down! Next we hooked the A line up and did the quarter test, booster shut down! Added the B line and it shut down again. Now, the C line is free standing bench and not hooked to the main bench with any track. It power bus is hooked to the A line terminal blocks not to the booster.
Hooked up the C line and booster did not shut down! C line wiring was temporary, but like lot of things in life was never finished. When I hooked it to the A line blocks, I used the 18 gage wire I was using for the feeders. Had power so no problem and sort of forgot about it. We installed the 12 gage wire that I had for the bus and tested again. Booster should down on the A, B and the C line!!!!!!!!!
Then we did the test with a PK 2000 BL 2 with a DH 123 decoder running on the C line and shorted the A line. Engine shut down as soon as the A line was shorted! We all so tested it at the far end end of the A, B and C line, again it shut down just like that! Simon found the specks on the MRC booster and it said booster should shut down in .10th of a second and it now seems to.
You kind folks where giving the right answer all a long, I just forgot about the thin wire I used to jump the C line to the A line blocks and the information was slow to sink in my none electoral brain.
Thanks to all the great folks that have gone above the call of duty in trying to help me, and Simon for picking me up today.
Now for the big question, am I totally out of hot water with cooking decoders? Lets say I pull a long train and the engine motor starts to get hot, will the booster shut down the track before the engine eats a decoder? I swore off long trains, no more than 20 cars per engine, but still like to know anyway. Should I add breakers? I don't care at this point if the whole layout shuts down, as long as I not eating decoders.
Only bad part of this story, is with my wifes Town Car having problems, there goes the new DCC system this week! I might still be able to afford the Computer interfaces for around $90.00.
Thanks again, Stupid and Thick Headed Ken
simon1966 It was enjoyable seeing Ken's layout in person. Ken has added to his layout over time and you can see a tremendous improvement in modelling skills as he has grown in the hobby. The newest part is really coming together well, with some carved rock faces, nice grade transitions and some interesting industries.
You are being to kind Simon. I hope the lads are enjoying the Class J. What address are the Mono F 3 by the way?
Hope to see you Wensday and will bring over the passanger cars.
All so thanks for the ride.
You are welcome Ken. 06 for the Monon's I believe. Crispy just confirmed that. The Class J is great. It has been pulling the Zephyr passenger train this evening. It sure is loud!!
Simon, I sure wish I was there to see Crispy enjoying it. Feel free to change CV's as you see fit. Chuff rates seem a little fast compared to the other steam engines I have. I all most feel bad about getting the Monos F 3 back. Well they will come back maybe on a lend leas program after my bench is Cuda Ken Proof!
Ken your friend
People who dispute the need for heavy gauge wiring for the track bus READ THIS THREAD!
cudakenNow for the big question, am I totally out of hot water with cooking decoders? Lets say I pull a long train and the engine motor starts to get hot, will the booster shut down the track before the engine eats a decoder? I swore off long trains, no more than 20 cars per engine, but still like to know anyway. Should I add breakers? I don't care at this point if the whole layout shuts down, as long as I not eating decoders.
Was the one below on the "C" loop?
Kudaken wrote:
>> Decoders ate 1. Athearn RTR UP Dash 9, have no clue why it stalled >>in the tunnel and melted the wires from the tucks to the PC board. It did >>take a year of heavy run time before it did the BBQ. It has been doing >>well for some time now.
davidmbedard A booster not tripping when you do the quarter trick is a BAD thing. It means you can weld your wheels, melt axles and easily destroy decoders. I strongly suggest you go with a system that will serve you well. Ive mentioned this in the past, but it has fallen on deaf ears. David B
A booster not tripping when you do the quarter trick is a BAD thing. It means you can weld your wheels, melt axles and easily destroy decoders.
David B
Texas Zepher Was the one below on the "C" loop? Cudaken wrote: >> Decoders ate 1. Athearn RTR UP Dash 9, have no clue why it stalled >>in the tunnel and melted the wires from the tucks to the PC board. It did >>take a year of heavy run time before it did the BBQ. It has been doing >>well for some time now.
Cudaken wrote:
Dash 9 had its melt down on the C line, but others went bad on the A and B line. With the booster not shutting down at all, guess it did not matter which line the engine was on if there was a problem.
Yep, if your booster isn't kicking out on a short then it wouldn't matter which line or what size wire you have, something is going up in smoke. This is where some type of external current limiting protection can help.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I thought it might be a wiring problem. I had the same thing going on with my Bachmann booster until I changed the buss wires from 18 gauge (the layout was originally wired for DC) to 14 gauge. Before it would take a couple of seconds for the system to shut down. Sometimes it didn't shut down at all. If I short the track now it shuts down immediatly which is what it's supposed to do.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Very good news!
I'd still break things into current limited districts. You really have no reason to want to allow the possibility of 8A through anything, even for a short time. Actually, I would not be shocked it you could get rid of 8A booster entirely, not that the wiring is better.
Jeff, the only reason I bought the MRC 8 Amp Booster is I was told by some here a few years ago it would work and simple to hook up. Bachmann 5 amp booster was $150.00 and I bought the MRC new for $120.00. Main selling point was when I talked with a person at MRC, was told it would work with ALL DCC system including Digitrax Zepher. One of the things that held me back from buying a Zepher was I was afraid its 2.5 amp power supply would have to be up graded latter.
2 years later I am final dollar wise able to make the jump to a different command station. When I get the new house and build a 400 plus feet of track bench it will be used again. Will have 5 mains, and then a few short branches.
cudaken 2 years later I am final dollar wise able to make the jump to a different command station. When I get the new house and build a 400 plus feet of track bench it will be used again. Will have 5 mains, and then a few short branches.
I would get the Zephyr, Ken. Not the Super Empire Builder. You can't ready CV's with the SEB, although with a PR3 away from the layout you could. 2.5 amps is probably plenty, and when you get to build that bigger layout you can add on as needed, always having the use of the Zephyr. It's a different mentality with Digitrax - you just add on what you need when you need, never throwing out the old stuff. It all keeps working together. Kinda of like adding power to your car by adding a blower instead of changing out the motor.
Ken, my point was that I never thought you should need any booster at all. There's nothing wrong with having a big booster, except that you then need to be more careful about limiting the current to the track. Which is where either breakers or bulbs come in.
I reasoned that the problem was in the wiring. The thing to remember is that a short circuit may not actually trip a breaker or blow a fuse. You can have more than enough current flow to damage something without blowing a fuse.
If the wiring is sub-standard, the voltage drop the occurs will at some point be a real problem. According to Kirchoff, if the voltage goes down, the current must go up, to maintain the power. When that happens, something gets destroyed.
A good example is power tools. The instructions always warn about extension cords, recommend the gauge and maximum length you should use. Ignore that, and you will void the warranty when the motor burns out. Too much current draw, end of motor.
Something to protect the circuit from excessive current flow is a good idea. Poor wiring will defeat the circuit breaker in the booster, because it doesn't use the amount of current, but the rate of change to determine something is wrong. Too much resistance will reduce the effectiveness, to the point of rendering the circuit protection useless.
Adding one those light bulbs in series is a bad idea. It makes good wiring into substandard wiring by introducing resistance. It will limit the rate of change, and defeat the circuit protector. There is still more than enough current flowing to damage something. That is a relic of the DC age, and needs to be forgotten about. Big difference between a 2A DC circuit and an 8A DCC circuit...
betamax I reasoned that the problem was in the wiring. The thing to remember is that a short circuit may not actually trip a breaker or blow a fuse. You can have more than enough current flow to damage something without blowing a fuse. If the wiring is sub-standard, the voltage drop the occurs will at some point be a real problem. According to Kirchoff, if the voltage goes down, the current must go up, to maintain the power. When that happens, something gets destroyed.
For the purposes of this discussion we can assume the output of the booster is constant up to its rated output current of 8A. I am with you on your first paragraph but on the second paragraph, if the wiring is substandard to the point where the overall resistance is high enough to reduce the amount of current across the short, then current drops and doesn't go up because the source voltage is constant. Now if you are referring to the short itself (in this circuit) then this is correct, less resistance means lower voltages which means higher current but this would happen with better wiring not worse wiring. Worse wiring would actually deliver less current across the short due to the higher resistance of the wire and subsequent voltage drop across the substandard wiring.
The other part of the equation is the protection circuit. You are right on target in the 4th paragraph.
At this point I going to leave the two brains to debate this part. I am just happy it shuts down when needed and nothing has melted.
Anyone need any taillights?