I have recently received the Proto E7 AA Hiawatha locomotives. They perform fine except that the two units MUed will not run faster than 62 smph. They won't run faster separately either. The factory setting for CV 5 is 0. I have tried adjusting the V mid to 128 and V high CV to 255 but to no effect. If anything they run slower. These are my first Proto Diesels and I don't know if this slow speed performance is typical or not. Any ideas? Must I be content with a 62 MPH Hiawatha. Maybe some Athern FP7s would speed up the show a bit....
I am curious about this as well. I have been speed matching one for a freind and I was also concerned about the top end speed.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I can't offer and direct help, but, I have 6 Proto2000 E8's (exact same drive) that are all DC. They run a perfect 80 smph at 13.6 volts using an Aristo Craft Train Engineer throttle.
So it may well be a DCC/decoder issue, not the loco. What voltage is your DCC system putting on the rails? I would think it should be above 14 volts to get full speed from these units.
Sheldon
You may be on target with the track voltage thing. When I turn on my system my DT400 throttle indicates a track voltage of 10.5. I may need to open up the DB150s and screw up the track voltage a bit.
I know that Life-Like pre-Walthers had to make some changes in their RDC's because people complained how slow they ran. The newer ones run faster.
At one time...well, for a long time...it was hard to get a locomotive to run really slow, and guys were content to have their trains whizzing around the layout. In recent years, high quality engines have come out that allow us to run very slowly and smoothly, so it could be LL went with that angle at the cost of some top end speed.
BTW since our layouts are so small compared to the real thing, what's the hurry to get from A to B?? I generally run at about half the prototype speed. It's all relative, a passenger train at 35 MPH looks fast next to an ore train going 10 MPH.
Split ReductionYou may be on target with the track voltage thing. When I turn on my system my DT400 throttle indicates a track voltage of 10.5. I may need to open up the DB150s and screw up the track voltage a bit.
When plugging in, or turning the system on, the voltage on the DT400 display is the Loconet voltage, not the track voltage.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Kinda funny actually, it used to be that all the complaints were that everything ran at warp speed, minimum starting speeds were too high (common to find HO locos 20 years ago that would start moving with a minimum speed of 10mph - great for switching - NOT). Now we have the problem that they don't go fast enough. Sure the prototype might have been geared for 90mph top speed, but they seldom hit it. What's more, unless you have a HUGE layout, and nothign less than #8 (and mostly #10) turnouts, and no curves less than 48" radius (talkign about HO scale here), even 25mph would actually be TOO FAST. So slow down, extend the apparent distance between your stations, and enjoy.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi!
Is it possible the locos just need a break-in period, and/or some "lube & tune"?
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
First of all my friend in this instance is our forum buddy Cudaken. Now we all know that Ken likes to get good performance out of his locos. In this particular case the loco is not all that new, has had plenty of running in time. I think it is just a fact that this model has particularly low top end speed. My BLI sound equipped (same QSI decoder) has a much higher top speed. The P2K is particularly sedate for some reason.
rrinkerSure the prototype might have been geared for 90mph top speed, but they seldom hit it.
The MILW E7s were geared for 117 mph, and they got up to triple digits very often. Hiawatha was fleet of foot, you know.
As I don't know the original poster "from Adam", I have no way of knowing if he is experienced with getting new locos broken in and assuring they are lubed. No offense meant in any way!
One other thought on the subject..... Would it not help isolate the problem if the loco was tested in a DC mode? If it had a higher top speed, then its a DCC problem. If it ran the same, then its a loco problem or an attribute of that particular loco model.
Correction to my earlier post! I knew I had this info written down, and I know better than to trust my memory (Albert Einstein said "never memorize anything you can easily look up").
At 13.35 VDC, on pulse width modulation control with an Aristo Train Engineer, all my Proto2000 E8's go 88 smph. Gearing options on the prototype where for 90 and 117 as I recall.
Many DC transformers have outputs well into the 14-16 volt range or higher. I prefer to stay closer to the NMRA standards. So on DC the unit has a fairly prototypical top speed.
I still suspect a decoder or DCC voltage problem/limitation regarding the OP's problem.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI still suspect a decoder or DCC voltage problem/limitation regarding the OP's problem.
Based on my own experience here with CudaKens E7 I don't beleive it has anything to do with DCC track voltage. It is the only locomotive out of dozens that behaves this way. Furthermore, it runs the same way on Cuda's layout. IMO it is loco specific and the fact that there are 2 with the same issue. Ken mentioned to me the other day that he had posed a similar question in the past and was told that these P2K units are notoriously slow.
Simon is working with my E-6 (see you Sunday Simon) and my track has 14.5 volts at the rail. The E-7 is just slow for some reason. Simon is speed matching the E-7 to a PK 2000 E-6 B unit of mine. I have 3 E-6's and all have a top speed around 105 sMPH. I have asked this question about 2 years ago when I first got it and from what I was told by other owners, they are just slow.
I wonder if a up graded QSI decoder would speed it up. I all so don't care for the sound either, maybe correct but just don't like it. The E-7 takes the High Speed out of High Speed Passenger Services.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
rrinker Kinda funny actually, it used to be that all the complaints were that everything ran at warp speed, minimum starting speeds were too high (common to find HO locos 20 years ago that would start moving with a minimum speed of 10mph - great for switching - NOT). Now we have the problem that they don't go fast enough. Sure the prototype might have been geared for 90mph top speed, but they seldom hit it. What's more, unless you have a HUGE layout, and nothign less than #8 (and mostly #10) turnouts, and no curves less than 48" radius (talkign about HO scale here), even 25mph would actually be TOO FAST. So slow down, extend the apparent distance between your stations, and enjoy. --Randy
I don't have an E7 but my P2K E8s had the typical jack rabbit extreme top end speed (as do all my P2Ks) and had to be "tuned down" to prototypical top end smph.
But, I'm with wjstix and rrinker. I'd rather have your E7 crawling nicely than looking strange moving around a typical layout at 60+ smph.
Split ReductionI have recently received the Proto E7 AA Hiawatha locomotives. They perform fine except that the two units MUed will not run faster than 62 smph. .... These are my first Proto Diesels and I don't know if this slow speed performance is typical or not. Any ideas? Must I be content with a 62 MPH Hiawatha. Maybe some Athern FP7s would speed up the show a bit..
What I am going to do is regear them. What fun for something that is brand new. Makes me angry that I have to "work on" items right out of the box. Especially ones that were as expensive as these. I might NOT be buying the 20th Century E7 units just because of this reason. HELLO WALTHERS are YOU Listening! You don't want me to switch to a new vendor. I can't say exactly how much business Athearn has lost to me but it is $thousands$.
Yes. The scale switch is set to HO.
Steve B
Timetable speed on the River Sub of the Milwaukee Road, which I model, was 90 MPH until the end of Milwaukee passenger service. It was faster across the "island" between Red Wing and Hastings. On my layout I enjoy a double track mainline with No. 6 crossovers ( prototype XO speed of 10 MPH) 42" radius curves and a few 30 foot straightaways. I would be fun to let the E7s rip pass the S2 in the Eastward siding at Wabasha at 90 smph and then crank them down to extend running time between stations..
Anyway, I ain't done fiddlin' around yet. Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.
I didn't realize that the DT400 showed "Loconet" voltage and not track voltage at startup. Thanks for the info.
I guess I'm the oddball. My P2K E-units run an easy 85mph, including the E7 and E8 that are equipped with Digitrax 163 decoders.
I do wonder about these issues with top speed. When I was a member of the Suncoast Model Railroader's Club, I ran long passenger train versions of SCL's Champion. Yet, I don't recall going over 70 scale mph.
http://www.suncoastmrrc.com/layouts.htm
Even with the long stretches on that club's gorgeous layout, it just didn't look realistic to whip a train up to 90mph, only to have to slow it down for an upcoming curve. Even though the curves on the club's HO layout are broad, there's no way that the prototypes could have taken them at Hiawatha speeds and not become airborne! (sadly that happened to the prototype Southern Crescent back in 1978, I think)
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 guess I'm the oddball. My P2K E-units run an easy 85mph, including the E7 and E8 that are equipped with Digitrax 163 decoders.
FP 45, we are talking PK2000's E-7 with QSI sound. My E-6's with no sound will hual as well. That is why Simon is speed matching them.
Zepher, what gears are you using? I have a PK 2000 E-6 that could be scrapped out.
AntonioFP45Even with the long stretches on that club's gorgeous layout, it just didn't look realistic to whip a train up to 90mph, only to have to slow it down for an upcoming curve. Even though the curves on the club's HO layout are broad, there's no way that the prototypes could have taken them at Hiawatha speeds and not become airborne! (sadly that happened to the prototype Southern Crescent back in 1978, I think)
I agree. Not sure why anyone wants to see a scale model train running 80 scale mph on a layout with 18" or 22" radius curves and #6 TO's.
Might as well go back to Lionel toys if that's what you want--they go REALLY fast on near-90-degree turns.
Midnight RailroaderMight as well go back to Lionel toys if that's what you want--they go REALLY fast on near-90-degree turns.
Hey thanks for the response
More out of curiosity than anything else, I wanted to know why a particular locomotive was noticeably more sedate than anything else on the layout? I found it interesting that the OP posed the exact same question, right when I was dealing with the same issue. The very act of speed matching a pair of locos quickly exposed the obvious disparity between like models (E units) from different manufacturers (P2K and BLI) Do I want to run things incredibly fast? Not especially. Do my kids, sure they do! For that fix an OO scale Hornby Eurostar positively flies. I can tell you, that there are times when getting the eye down at track level and watching a 4 car TGV set swoop through the scenery is a real blast No doubt that will be frowned on as well, after all you don't see many prototype images of Eurostars running the trackage of the Q or Wabash in the 50's, but hey its my layout and one of its primary purposes is to be a thing of pleasure and bonding for me and my boys.
It was a simple question really, that at least 3 people were curious enough to seek an answer to. Go back to playing with Lionel (which I never have done in the first place) was just the kind of insightful response I was hoping to get.
AntonioFP45 I guess I'm the oddball. My P2K E-units run an easy 85mph, including the E7 and E8 that are equipped with Digitrax 163 decoders.
Actually there is another way to fix it. Always run using a fast clock. In other words slow the scenery down to match.
Some people are just plain rude
Chris
OK,
Thanks guys for clearing that up. I hope that I didn't come across as rude. I understand now, the issue is the NEW E-units that are equipped with the QSI sound systems. It's not that the OP wants to run them at 90mph, but feels that they should be able to run at that speed or close to it if possible just as the older P2K E units can. Yes, that is a reasonable expectation.
When I thought about it, I realized that even though I might not push them to it, I like the fact that my "Es" have the capability of hitting those high speeds.
Simon, Ken......
So far is regearing the only solution? It is a shame to have to spend more money on a brand new unit.
If it's the same motor as before, thus turns at the same speed, and the decoder puts out the full normal voltage at the highest speed step (there's nothing oddball about QSI decoders in this regard), then yes, the only option is to change the gear ratio to make the loco faster. Or use the top/mid/max settings to set the old faster ones to run at the same speed as the newer ones.
Being a steam fan and old enough to actually remember big mainline steam I have never bothered to purchase any diesel locomotives. The Hiawathe E7s are my first diesels and,while I like their smooth slow speed operation,I was ignorant about what I percieved to be a slow top speed. I wondered if they were not performing properly and if there was something that could be done to correct the slow top speed. I guess I got my answer. The 14-1 gear ratio limits their top speed to around 60+ smph. Since I do not plan on re-gearing or re-motoring the E7s I will be content with 62 smph for a top speed.
Thanks everyone for your comments and insights.